Talk:Ordnance ML 3 inch Mortar

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[edit] Calibre

I'm not going to change the article, as I see that someone already has, and this has been reverted by someone measuring a mortar in the NZ Army museum. However I would pipe up on this mortar being 81mm during WWII, and certainly in the Korean War, both of which are well prior to the introduction of the L16 81mm Mortar in 1965 - but I cannot say if this is the original mortar or the Mark II barrel one. This is a nitpicking area but I'd like to provide a quote here for people to chew on, and it's a bit of an essay:

Researchers (Charles Markuss, Kenneth Katz and Shaun Carter) developing the board game Advanced Squad Leader described their findings in ASL Journal Issue Seven in 2006. It was noticed that the new book "Infantry Mortars of World War II" from the New Vanguard series by Osprey Publishing described the British 3-inch mortar as being 3.2 inches or 81mm. Previous standard sources for the game had given 3 inches or 76.2mm. Later consultation of User Manuals, measurement of a 3-inch mortar at the Small Arms School Corps museum in Warminster, and an interview with a retired Infantry Major John Oldfield who had used the weapon in Korea all indicated the calibre as 3.21 inches or 81mm - which surprised everyone.

During WWII the British provided a special, more pointed, firing pin to allow the mortar to fire captured Italian and German 81mm mortar ammunition.

Now, me reading this makes me think the mortar was 81mm - but exactly when this was the case I cannot say - it may be that the British changed during WWII to 81mm, which would have been typical in trying to fit in with US artillery logistics, as well as being able to use German, Italian and French ammunition. But then if the British started with a genuine 3-inch mortar what happened to their ammo stocks from prior to the changeover? Was the weapon 81mm all along? Did the British/Commonwealth forces have a mixed stock of mortars and ammunition (maybe explaining the findings in New Zealand)? Some corroboration on use of captured ammo would be useful.

Does this constitute original research? It isn't by me - the 81mm calibre is published in the above-mentioned book (at least that's what the Journal says) and obviously that figure is repeated with explanation in the Journal. This is a serious wargame, and they are planning to issue erraticised counters at the time of writing. Discuss Stevebritgimp 23:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note. The British 3" mortar was always 81mm in calibre. Almost all WW2 medium mortars were of the same calibre because they were copies, licensed or not, of the 1930's French Brandt design. In general they could all fire each others ammunition, though as some countries used greater propellent charges this could be hazardous. As you mention the UK pattern needed a different firing pin due to a diferent The exception was the USSR with its 82mm mortar, which could fire 81mm bombs, but not vice-versa.

I have no idea why the British refer to the weapon as "3 inch" rather than 3.2"/81mm; it may be related to its predecessor, the 3 inch Stokes mortar. It appears that most sources simply assume the calibre to be 76mm because of the name, without verifying, and then other are using this same research.

As for someone measuring a mortar, this may have been an earlier 3" Stokes pattern, which was 3" calibre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.231.1 (talk) 22:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's an interesting one - the Stokes mortar was a trench mortar going back to WWI, and I would imagine the WWII era weapon as a mortar would be more flexible in what ammunition it used, say compared to a rifled artillery piece which would need very specific ammunition to work. The Brandt mortar is the gold standard of its day (although on wiki, at least a couple of months ago if you typed in 81mm Mortar you'd end up with the US weapon, and the French weapon didn't even have its own page - for shame!) But I don't know the practicalities of how these weapons worked. A previous change to the calibre on the page resulted in a reversion. I think the 81mm calibre for the WWII era weapon may be gaining ground, but this is arcane militaria stuff, even to me. More opinions and facts may be needed to make this one stick Stevebritgimp (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)