Talk:Order of the Dragon
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[edit] Forget about Cilli?
The founding twenty-four members were inducted in 1408 and including also Herman and Friderik of Celje, who were listed on the top of the list.
[edit] SOURCES!
The article is adequately good, but there needs to be more rigorous documentation and reference to reliable sources. Very little reliable information in the Anglophone world is available concerning the Order of the Dragon... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.149.141.228 (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
I highly recommend Stoyanov's history of the Eurasian Dualisms and my own analysis of the proto-culture of northern Eurasia. Dr. Colleen Clements
The bit in the first section about Stoyanov and Clements is good, but it seems like it warrants its own section. Also, there is no clear indication of a source (who's Clements, who's Stoyanov, what are the book titles?). Whoever knows, can you please separate that into a new section, and give clearer indication of the sources? Thamis 10:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Iced Earth
Not sure that it would be relevant enough but there is a direct reference to "The order of the dragon" in the Iced Earth song 'Dracula' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.245.157.122 (talk) 10:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
I'd definitely say it's not relevant, the order of the dragon surfaces in any and all vampire lore post Bram Stoker. 210.49.15.52 (talk) 07:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] THIS ACCOUNT LACKS CITATION/NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED (GRAMMAR)
THE ORDER OF THE DEFEATED DRAGON not just the order of the dragon.
I have made certain corrections on this artical firstly the 0rder was not created in 1408 but 1418 please see page 181 of the chivalry book ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD AWARDS AND THE HOLY SEE by Peter Bander van Duren, there have been many mistakes on the orgin and history of this order, it would be common sense of the writer of this artical to first verify the orgin of the order its true date and why it was created, it would be a bit strange if the sovereign lords who were the orders first members joined to protect the royal family of hungary? not a sensible reason for the time! The true history is as folllws the Order of the Defeated Dragon was formally established in the year 1418 by Sigismund King of Hungary, after the Council of Constance, to defend the Church against the heretics, especially the Hussites. The defeated dragon is a symbol of the destruction of heresy. The Order flourished in Germany, and Italy. the order is not a order of the kingdom of hungary but the holy roman empire please note the aforementioned information.
This is also not accurate. The Order of the Dragon is a Bosnian and Eastern European military organization, most likely linked to the Bosnian Ecclesiae "heresies." The mother church for this ancient and classic cosmology, metaphysics and religion was the Ecclesia Drugunthiae (see Y. Stoyanov, The Other God; and C.D. Clements, The Order of the Dragon). Sigismund was an Angevin noble who became King of Hungary in his bid to become Holy Roman Emperor (see Stoyanov, Clements, and W. Urban). Sigismund wished to use the Order as it was impossible for him to use the Teutonic Knights who had made a power grab with the blessing of the Pope for Romania. Prince Bela of Hungary was not about to allow his lands in Romania/Transylvania to be taken by the Teutonic Knights and drove them out. So there was very bad blood between the Teutonic Knights and the Order of the Dragon as competitors. When the Dragon League of Culm abandoned the Teutonic Knights against the pagan Lithuanians at the battle of Tannenberg, that escalated and partly explains the propaganda pamphlets against the Basarab Princes, Vlad II and Vlad III, who were members of the Order of the Dragon (see Clements and Urban). Also, the pin of the Order is not a defeated dragon, but a dragon with a sun sign cross and the blood-red and white colors of George. Again, Count Hrovje Vukcic specifically stated the Order was a "pagan rite" and as a Patarene/Bogomil, he was a "heretic" himself. This Great Heresy was spread throughout Eastern Europe, Italy, and the Languedoc, and supported by King Alfonse of Spain. Sigismund, with royal ties to the Languedoc, was engaged in European politics.
Dr. Colleen Clements (Dr. Clements is not a real doctor, for a real expert would add citation to their work.)
Get real sources, stop going for the sensational "Its the Devil!" thing and turn off caplocks.
right...Well, unless you can give a source for that lovely wall of text...67.60.244.249 (talk) 17:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Thomas de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk (after 1439)
This must be wrong! In 1439 the Duke of Norfolk was John de Mowbray, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, and not Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk, 3rd Earl of Norfolk (1365-1399) (dukedom forfeit 1399) or Thomas Mowbray, 4th Earl of Norfolk (1385-1405). What is the correct one? The Ogre 15:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Thomas was dead 3 years before the Order when founded, at least. Furthermore I don't see any evidence aside from what we say here that any Duke of Norfolk was ever a member. Kind of strange to have an English night and Duke in service to a Holy Roman Emperor at the time period, been a long time since Edward the Confessor and his nephew.
[edit] Popular culture
The Elder Scrolls Order of the Dragon has no relation to this Order of the Dragon, it isn't inspired by, based off of or in any way related. Its just a cool name for a group in video which actually has something to do with Dragons, there for it is not a part of the Order of the Dragon in Popular Culture. Also, this article really sucks, you guys need to read the rules sometime. As far as I can see, the only Reference "Credo Mutwa in his book Zulu Shaman references this symbol (snake eating it's tail) as a symbol of immortality." is talking about the Ourobouros and has no relation to this article, unless the Zulu dude says the Zulu Shamans have something to do with a Medieval Mid to Eastern European Military Order. Thats going too. This is not a site for your spiritual awakings or whatever. Oh, even if the Zulu dude does say so, he needs to be a trustworthy source, not some sensationilist new ager. The Cradle of Filth thing is borderline, if its true how hard can it be to find sources about their fan club? The article on them doesn't do anything to prove its true or has any relation to this Order of the Dragon aside from a picture which is said to be based off of the "medieval original", which would imply it is related and not someone just making use of a cool name. Of course with no sources it could just be some stupid fanboy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 09:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Saddles
I am working on a thesis on the saddles mentioned in the artifacts section and will put up more information as I sort it out. RobynRadway (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC) R. Radway
Good job, some work that appears unbiased and might even have sources.
[edit] Pagan
Does someone want to explain this? Have have a pagan Knight Order in a Christian (and Catholic) country ruled by a Christian King (who was also the Holy Roman Emperor). It has colours and symbology of St. George, one of the early Christian Saints from one of the first Christian nations. The original edict says on it O Quam Misericors est Deus, Pius et Justus, which says according to my rusty grade 10 latin, somthing about how god is merciful (or miserable?), upright and just. Also, the Lizard Union wasn't pagan and I doubt that Sigismund would with one hand raise them and with the other smack them, so unless theres a larger parent corporation of Slavic Reptilian Orders I think thats just racist profiling of opponents of the Holy Roman Empire. Also, that stuff about the Bosnian Church looks made up, the Bosnian Church according to the article on it, did not use Ecclesia Sclavonica and never mentions this Voivode Hrovje Vukcic (which probably means the Hrvoje Vukčić) that article never says anything about him being a member, infact it says he was at war against Sigismund in the 1390, a full 20 years before the Order was founded. Given all of this, I'm doing a little cleaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 02:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Alright, so I've cut out it being called pagan, opionated descriptions of the meaning of the symbols, unrelated references to dragon stuffes in Armenia, removed mention of Sigismund's wife who had nothing to do with the Order (thats like saying Barbara Bush helped with Desert Storm, relieving stress of the creator does not count as being a co-creator). Removed the Two Principals, what the hell are they?
[edit] Original research
Part about symbols may contain original research and/or unverified claim about some fresco in Italy, link with the Order is unclear. Yopie 21:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- How do we know that the coins Vladd II minted specifically referenced the Order? Except that he was in the Order and minted coins with a dragon on them. Therefore the motif of the dragon on coins is worth mentioning for someone that is referenced as being in the Order. That point of a dragon in the Fresco is the same. The artist also chose to use a dragon in a puzzling way on the fresco. This is not original research, the author wrote about the puzzling dragon being there. You know what- since you are so hung up on that point, I will remove it just to make you happy- but what you get is less and less information available for people. 65.141.156.164 (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- No problem
