Talk:Order of the British Empire

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This article is part of WikiProject Orders, Decorations, and Medals, a collaborative effort to improve, organise, and standardise Wikipedia's coverage of national honours systems. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. You can discuss the project at its talk page
Order of the British Empire was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: September 14, 2006
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Contents

[edit] Reagan?

I seem to remember Thatcher giving Reagan one of these (in which case he should certainly be added) but I cannot find details. Perhaps I am mistaken, or can someone else find it? --BozMo|talk 11:17, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Reagan was made a Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath (GCB) (and is listed on that page). The Queen gives all honours incidentally, even if the list is compiled by the government. -- Necrothesp 22:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gravitational Beam Emmitter

Do we really need this? It would be better to move that section to the post-nominals page.

Yes we need this -- it is an expantion of anything that would be listed on the post-nominal letters page.

[edit] List(s) of recipients?

The article lists some "foreign" recipients. We should list at least a comparable number of Commonwealth recipients; if or when we do, we should have a clear link from this article (unless they are included in it, which is probably not desirable in the long term because a separate list of them could be of more value to an encyclopedia than, say, the list of New Zealand companies). Robin Patterson 06:02, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC) -Agreed. Penwhale


[edit] Redirect

I made the redirect from GBE to this page into a disambiguation page for GBE and Gbe languages. strangeloop 11:46, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Never mind, I reverted because I discovered I just had to create a 'Gbe' page with a redirect to Gbe languages to stop 'Gbe' from redirecting to 'GBE' and to here.


[edit] Chapel

The material about stalls and helms (which is used in most other articles on the British orders of chivalry, almost verbatim) is not correct in this case - there are no crests displayed in the OBE chapel - MWNN

Honest - I've been there! - MWNN

Ah, sorry about that.
James F. (talk) 23:46, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A reliable and scholarly work on the British history, Never Had It So Good by Dominic Sanbrook, says that the chapel was dedicated in 1960, not 1969. I changed the date in the article yesterday. Mapple 13:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sir == KBE?

I do know that Paul McCartney, MBE was knighted; does that make him a KBE? Is it possible to be knighted without changing rank in the Order?

I ask this because David Gilmour is a CBE (higher in 'seniority'), but he is not referred to as Sir David Gilmour.

Just curious...

Order of the British Empire states that only KBEs may use the 'Sir'/'Dame' prefix.

I do know however that Dame Maggie Smith is a Dame Commander. She was awarded a CBE in the early 70's, and then in 1990 accepted a DBE, so because she has both the Commander Of The British Empire and Dame Of The British Empire titles, she can be referred to as a Dame Commander, super-seeding a woman with just a DBE. I would imagine that the same applies for Sir Paul Mccartney


--Joshk 04:14, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sir Paul McCartney, MBE, is a Knight Bachelor, which means that he was knighted without being given appointed to one of the knightly grades in any of the Orders of Chivalry (such as the Order of the British Empire). Being made a Knight Bachelor is the lowest form of knighthood - he would have had to have impressed the Government even more to have been made a KBE or a GBE (or a knight in one of the other Orders). Many people are knighted without being members of any Orders, and are thus known simply as Sir John Smith, with no post-nominal letters at all. Hope this helps. Proteus (Talk) 10:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Is this the same case with Sir Elton John? From what I've read, he's a CBE, but he was also knighted. Thanks, --JT 14:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article says KBE but this may not be correct. It's unusual for British citizens resident in the UK to obtain a KBE as opposed to Knight Bachelor. Another question mark lies over whether James Molyneaux is really a KBE or a Knight Bachelor JAJ 23:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Sir Elton John CBE is a Knight Bachelor. See the New Years Honours list 1998 here.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead is a KBE. See his Lords introduction here. JRawle (Talk) 17:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire

According to [1], that's the title Bill Gates will be getting. Should there be a redirect page at Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire? Commander of the Order of the British Empire is already a redirect page to here. (By the way, are those two the same thing?)--Tokek 00:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, KBE is the grade above CBE. If Gates was a subject of the Queen then he'd be able to call himself "Sir Bill", whereas a CBE couldn't (since it's not a knighthood). KBE is the usual honour granted to foreigners getting honorary knighthoods. -- Necrothesp 01:36, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Tokey, that's right, "Most Excellent Order of the British Empire" is often shortened to "Order of the British Empire", but they're one and the same thing.
At your suggestion, I made a few redirects to here:
... which is enough for the time being, I feel.
James F. (talk) 02:14, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicts

Okay, Bill Gates is an honorary KBE. So, can he or can he not use the post-nominal abbreviations? This is very confusing. Cleanups? Penwhale 02:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, he can use the post-nominal letters. No, he can't use the pre-nominal "Sir". He is Bill Gates KBE. It says that in the article, doesn't it? -- Necrothesp 11:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since Bill Gates is not a citizen of the UK nor of the British Commonwealth, theoretically he can not be called "Sir Bill" (or Sir William). -Kbot

Note that citizens of Commonwealth countries that do not recognise Queen Elizabeth II as Head of State (most of them) are also not entitled to use the "Sir" or "Dame". -- Necrothesp 02:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination process ?

I looked on this page because I was wondering what the nomination process was like and how it is decided who will be made part of the Order. Where can I find info on this Dowew 21:24, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the British Empire Medals

R. Eaton asked the following question on the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous page: are the medals made of pure gold and silver or are they only plated in gold and silver ?

If you know that answer could you please provide an answer on that page and put verifiable information in the article. Thanks. Capitalistroadster 05:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] When do you receive the title?

When do does the person receiving the title get to use it. Is it from the day the award is announced or when the Queen confers it josh 07:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The former. (It used to be that the letters could be used immediately but "Sir" could only be used after the accolade, but this proved too confusing for some and they changed it so both could be used as soon as the appointment was announced.) Proteus (Talk) 10:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for that. The reason I asked was that I've just confirmed that Alfred Hitchcock got a full knighthood and not an honourary one as the article said. However, there is a curious entry in the London Gazette several months after his death confirming that his wife gets all the privliges of a knight. Was this 1980 before the change or just a bit of protocol?
The change was in 1971, so I'd imagine it was just protocol, ensuring that there was absolutely no doubt about Lady Hitchcock's status. Proteus (Talk) 12:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


Cheers. josh 17:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging

I have reviewed this article and agreed that it is a Good Article. I was lenient on the image tagging criteria, but the second image does need its tag reviewing. —Whouk (talk) 19:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other orders?

The article mentions that this order is "the most junior of the British orders of chivalry". What does that mean? I was completely unaware that there were other orders, but the word "junior" here is unclear: does it mean it's the youngest, or the one with the least gravitas? Maerk 10:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

There's a carefully-defined (but highly arcane) order of precedence in the higher echelons of British society, starting with the Sovereign at the top, followed by the Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Wales, various other members of the royal family, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Chancellor, the Archbishop of York, certain other officers (including the Prime Minister), peers (Dukes, then Marquesses, then Earls, Viscounts and Barons), and so on (Bishops rank just above Barons), then Baronets, Knights of orders of chivalry (of which the Garter is the most senior, followed by the Thistle, and the British Empire the most junior), then Knights Bachelor, after which it gets a bit hazy. Anyway, the point is that holders of a particular grade in the Order of the British Empire rank below holders of an equivalent grade (but above holders of lower grades) in the other UK orders of chivalry. Nicholas Jackson 22:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted GA

Three references just isn't enough for this to be well-reference folks, it's a longish article, there should be much more here. Surely this entire thing wasn't gleaned from just those few references.... Homestarmy 17:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repeal

Is it possible to repeal an appointment to this order? I see Vidkun Quisling was CBE...Inge 13:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Most (if not all) of the British orders have provisions for revoking someone's membership of the order. According to The Times,13 June 1940, reporting the proceedings of the House of Commons the previous day, Quisling was stripped of his CBE. The relevant text is as follows:

Mr Mander (Wolverhampton E., L.) asked the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs the reasons for and the date on which Major Quisling was made a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, and whether he still remained a member.

Mr Butler (Saffron Walden, U.)— Captain Vidkun Quisling was appointed to be an honorary Commander of the Order of the British Empire — (laughter) — on November 22, 1929 in recognition of services rendered to his Majesty's government in connexion with the protection of British interests in the Soviet Union while serving on the staff of the Norwegian Legation in Moscow. He is no longer a member of the Order. (Cheers)

Mr Mander — When was this notorious traitor to his own country and the Allied cause removed from the Order?

Mr Butler — Very recently. (Laughter)

--Dr pda 22:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I'll add this to the VQ article. Do you have a link or other reference in addition to the Times? Inge 09:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, no. The online archive of the Times I have access to is subscription-only. I had a quick look in the London Gazette for an official notice but couldn't find one. Hansard could be quoted directly I guess if you could get hold of it. --Dr pda 17:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The announcement re Naseem Hamed:

Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood
St James's Palace, London SW1
12 December 2006
The Queen has directed that the appointment of Naseem Hamed to be a Member of the Civil Division of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, dated 31 December 1998, shall be cancelled and annulled and that his name shall be erased from the Register of the said Order.

Proteus (Talk) 10:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lists of recipients

Hello. I am writing an article on Sir George Bailey Sansom, who I know to have been knighted in 1935, but I have no idea which rank he was - OBE, KBE, Knight Commander, Knight Officer, whathaveyou. Is there any way to find this out, outside of biographical sources, such as a complete list of all recipients online somewhere? Thanks. LordAmeth 19:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The official announcements of British honours are published in The London Gazette, which can be searched online at [2] (although the search function is rather idiosyncratic, and often doesn't give you a result even when you specify a full name and the exact edition you know the notice to be in, probably because it uses OCR on scanned versions of printed editions). To answer your question, Sir George Sansom was created a Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George (KCMG) on 3 June 1935 (Supplement to the Gazette of 31 May 1935, published 3 June 1935, p8, online version here.) He was previously appointed CMG (probably sometime between 1925 and 1930, but the search is not giving me the appropriate entry). Dr pda 22:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

FYI, the New Years List 2006 has been announced. See the BBC article. Does a knighted person, i.e. George Shearing, become Sir George Shearing KBE? or Sir George Shearing? Seeing as he had an OBE, does he lose that and become Sir George Shearing KBE or Sir George Shearing KBE OBE etc. Thanks, RHB 01:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

He has been made a Knight Bachelor whch has no postnominal. Therefore he is Sir George Shearing, OBE. Had he been appointed a KBE (which he wasn't) then he would be Sir George Shearing, KBE as the KBE would trump the OBE. - Kittybrewster 11:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doctor/Professor

If one obtains a Professorship or Doctoral degree, in which order should they be addressed, for instance, Professor (Dr.) Sir James Bond, KBE, B.Sc., Ph.D., or in some different order. I am just curious; but as the article mentions clergy, it might be something interesting to add to the section. User:Ade1982 02:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Professor Sir James Bond KBE, Ph.D, B.Sc. The Professor ship includes and trumps the doctorate on the pre-nominals. As does the Barony trump the knighthood when he gets promoted to Professor the Lord Bond, KBE, Ph.D, B.Sc. You work up hill and then downhill in order of "importance". - Kittybrewster 09:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the common usage, certainly, but officially titles emanating from the Crown (or the Church) replace titles emanating from lesser institutions (like universities), and so if Professor James Bond is knighted (or succeeds as or is created a Baronet) he becomes "Sir James Bond", losing the "Professor", and likewise with peerages. Even membership of the Privy Council trumps it — he's "Professor James Bond" or "The Rt Hon. James Bond", but not both together. (As to the order of post-nominals, some universities like to list degrees in ascending order (James Bond, Esq., BSc, MPhil, LLD), but the order of precedence for post-nominals lists them in descending order (Sir James Bond, Bt, KG, OBE, DL) and so when listed together with "official" post-nominals degrees are always listed in descending order.) Proteus (Talk) 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I seem to remember a obit not so long ago for something like a knighted officer (general/Brig) who on retirement became a reverend and I fear something else producing one of the more odd combination of style and titles I've seen. I had a quick google but only turned up The Most Reverend Grand Chief Geoffrey David Hand KBE GCL MA which was not the man. Alci12 13:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Another interesting case is Paul Reeves, the former Archbishop and Governor-General of New Zealand. He received a knighthood on appointment as GG, and due to a mixup at the investiture actually received the accolade, which as a clergyman he shouldn't have, making him the Rt (or possibly Most) Revd Sir Paul Reeves. Recent changes in New Zealand mean that he is entitled to the style 'The Honourable' for life, as a former governor general, making him The Honourable The Right Reverend Sir Paul Reeves. He's got a couple of honorary doctorates as well! Dr pda 17:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
"Honourable" and "Reverend"-type honorifics confuse matters even further, because neither of them trumps the other, and they are combined rather than just stuck next to each other (the religious style preceding the temporal style no matter what grade they are). So he'd be "The Right Reverend and Honourable Sir Paul Reeves, [post-nominals]". Proteus (Talk) 18:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Lennon

Shouldn't there be some mention of John Lennon under the repeal or controversy part? Skippiikai 01:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)Skippii


[edit] Cites, please. Avoid (appearance of) personal views / original research

Removed this from the "Criticism" section, as it reads like the writer's personal views or original research: "Others argue that this is simply political correctness gone mad and that if people choose not to accept honours that is their choice. Furthermore, honours are deeply historic and to change names to suit modern-day attention seekers would undermine their correct and useful purpose in society." If we want to put this back in, let's get a cite from a reliable source. -- 201.51.231.176 19:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Awards to non-Britons who are citizens of Commonwealth Realms

I hope this isn't seen as a nitpick (it's not meant to be). The order is undeniably British, no argument there. But I'm not entirely sure about this sentence:

  • The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the Government).

That is certainly true for Britons awarded membership of the Order. But what about citizens of other Commonwealth Realms whose governments still recommend awards within the Order. These recommendations are not made to the "British monarch" by the British government, but to the (for argument's sake) Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua New Guinea, Queen of Barbados etc, by the relevant government. Australian governments no longer recommend British honours for Australians, but I think there are still some other Commonwealth realms that do make such recommendations for their citizens. Would making reference to this cause unnecessary confusion, or is there a case for it? -- JackofOz 09:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Aren't appointments made by the Sovereign of the Order, who just happens to be Elizabeth II? 202.89.155.94 07:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I think you miss my point. Elizabeth II wears 16 different crowns, one for each of the 16 Commonwealth Realms. When she's having her regular weekly chat with Gordon Brown, she is Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. When she visits Australia, or does any business on the advice of the Australian Prime Minister, or appoints Australians as members of the Order of Australia or any other order including the OBE - she is acting as the Queen of Australia, not as "the British monarch" (I've highlighted these words in the quote above). Same distinction for Canada, NZ and all the other 12 Realms. "The government" that recommends appointments to the OBE is not necessarily the British government. -- JackofOz 05:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I already noted that (please don't read too deeply into this comment; if I sound rude, its the Internet's fault :D) . I am most probably wrong, but my understanding is that while the "informal" recommendation/advice may be given by some government somewhere, the formal appointment to the order is an appointment under the Order's seal, and thus by Elizabeth II, in her capacity as Sovereign of the Order, as opposed to being Queen of X (in the latter case the appointment would be under the seal of a particular realm, which iirc does not happen). 202.89.152.154 06:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I accept that it's a British institution, and the Sovereign of the Order is the person who is the monarch of the UK, specifically the UK. That monarch just happens to be monarch of 15 other realms, and because it's technically possible (albeit extremely unlikely) that those other realms could opt for a different person as their monarch, it is therefore not the case that the Sovereignship of the Order is connected to any of the other 15 crowns. In that case, maybe the sentence should read:
  • "The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the relevant government)" (note small "g") - or, to make it absolutely unambiguous
  • ... (by convention, on the advice of the government of the relevant Commonwealth Realm ). Thoughts? -- JackofOz 08:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't say much since I'm only a casual reader on these topics, and I don't know on those specific details. Sorry if this is an obstacle to editing (I am just an anonymous IP after all...) 202.89.152.154 02:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
PS. Check out the London Gazette for appointments to Order of the B.E., iirc they all start with something along the lines of "The Queen, on the advice of her Somewhereland ministers, is pleased to make the following appointments to the Most Excellent Order..." (I can't remember the wording atm). The point being, that the honours lists always make sure to point out whose advice is being taken, even if they are appointments to just one order. 202.89.152.154 02:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Sir" or "Dame" outside of Her Majesty's Realms.

The article says "the title 'Sir' (male) or 'Dame' (female) before their name, so long as that person is a national of a realm where the Queen is Head of State. If not, the recipient may use the honour but not the title before their name."

But since the Handover of Hong Kong, people in Hong Kong who were given these titles seem to continue to be able to use them. Or are they using them falsely? Biofoundationsoflanguage 17:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sir Paul McCartney

Why is Paul McCartney addressed sir if he is "only" MBE? It states in the article that only the two highest grades entails a knighthood. Could someone explain this to me? --Law Lord 10:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Found my answer here. --Law Lord 12:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The implications of American elites gaining Knight Commander status

When people such as Alan Greenspan, George Bush sr and Colin Powell get knighted by the British Sovereign, what does that suggest about their allegiences? Do Americans not find this abhorrent? That their apparent "public servants" are being rewarded by the inbred aristocrats of the "British Empire"?

Sorry, I'm just curious. Seems rather bizarre to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.40.3 (talk) 15:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing

The article states that only the two highest orders can use the prefix "sir," but we routinely have people who are CBE listed as sir - Alex Ferguson and Matt Busby are the two I just found. I'm sure there's a subtlety that I as an uncouth American simply don't grasp, but in any case, the article as it reads now is clearly misleading or wrong. What is the correct wording? Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Ferguson is Knight Bachelor in addition to his CBE, don't know about Busby though. +Hexagon1 (t) 05:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] revocations

Who chooses which revocations are listed here? And why does the main page start in the 20's? What about Francis Bacon, or Roger Casement? Both are even mentioned in ref. 12 for this article, why are they omitted? +Hexagon1 (t) 05:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Royal Knights"?

Does this Order have "Royal Knights", like some of the others (Garter, etc)? Or do members of the Order who are also members of the Royal Family count towards the numerical limits in the same way as other members (apart from honorary members)? 195.92.40.49 (talk) 11:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)