Talk:Order of Whiteoak
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[edit] Notability and references
I have to agree with the IP editor who replaced these tags. Sympathetic though I am to any such group, this article lacks any references to independent sources which can attest to their notability. The external links given under the "references" heading are not presently sufficient to verify the group's importance. Ideally we need sources such as an independent newspaper, magazine, broadcaster or major website. If the group is genuinely notable, then external sources such as these will have remarked on its activities, and we need a citation or two to such articles. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 08:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- How about a link to Amazon.com where the About the Author section states "Ellen Evert Hopman (Massachusetts) has been active in American Druidism since 1984. She is co-chief of the Order of the Whiteoak (Ord na Darach Gile), a popular author of Druidry-related titles, and a master herbalist. She teaches at the Grey School of Wizardry and has contributed to several Pagan journals." Would that be classed as a major website?
- With regards to verifying a group's importance, the same question can be asked about some of the other groups listed within the Neo-druidism template, where, for example ADF is almost unknown outside of the United States. -- Mhaille —Preceding comment was added at 12:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- This argument is known on Wikipedia as Other Stuff Exists and is not a defence against poorly sourced articles (check out the blue link). I'm no longer a Druid (briefly an OBOD member), but I have heard of ADF and therefore I'm less likely to question its notability. I've never heard of the Order of Whiteoak, which leads me to wonder about how significant it is.
- But you're right that all organisations should be treated even handedly, so I set about Google to search for both Ar nDraiocht Fein and the Order of Whiteoak. I've found a couple for ADF and inserted these into the article. I'm pretty sure that Margot Adler mentions them in Drawing Down the Moon but I can't find my copy right now. The Google search shows up pages and pages of stuff for ADF, and only a handful of hits for Whiteoak. A search of Witchvox has the same result.
- So while wanting to be as sympathetic as possible (as a fellow-pagan) the bit of me that cares about the quality of Wikipedia is also exercised by the worry that Whiteoak may be so small, new or private that it fails to meet the general criteria of notability, or those of organisations in particular. I do realise that sourcing material about groups like ours is hard, but I still don't think what's here is sufficient yet and would suggest that if more can't be found, this article be merged with Ellen Evert Hopman. However there's no rush and I'm not going to act precipitately: I'm not a deletionist, but I am interested in improving the quality of articles on pagan subjects and I hope you'll take these comments in that light. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 09:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- With regards to verifying a group's importance, the same question can be asked about some of the other groups listed within the Neo-druidism template, where, for example ADF is almost unknown outside of the United States. -- Mhaille —Preceding comment was added at 12:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
