Talk:Order of Nine Angles

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-02-05. The result of the discussion was No consensus.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-01-05. The result of the discussion was Delete.

This article was deleted on 2007 January 5, after a process begun by known sockpuppet Tunnels Of Set, where the vote yielded 2 deletes (one from sockpuppet), 1 comment, and 4 keeps.

I would like to ask a Wikipedia admin to reinstate this page, please. I'm also going to try to ask for reinstatement *properly* just as soon as I figure out how. :-) 72.12.133.163 23:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I also think its important that it remains. It needs more research. Who founded it? When was it founded? How does its philosophy differ from other so-called Satanic groups? Keep it and build upon it.

Practices human sacrifice huh? So those are more than urban legend? I'm calling BS on this article. --Wolfrider 01:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Considering that the founder David Myatt has been associated with the UK security services through the Combat 18 disinformation campaign, it could be assumed that Myatt is merely a spook who is carrying out policy for MI5. Considering that MI5 used Combat 18 to monitor extermists it wouldnt be far fetched to say that Myatt is a spook(security operative) who is a agent provocatuer. And the fact of him "becoming" a muslim" and encouraging violence seems to suggest either a very confused person or someone who is merely carrying out orders for MI5. The Order of the 9 Angles is merely a PSYOP of the UK securty services to attract and monitor nutters and malcontents under their criteria. Whats disconcerning is that the UK secret service is starting to perceive occult magickal groups/orders has a security threat....86.139.222.15 20:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, here's a few things to think about. (1) If ONA was a psyop, I think that the writings would be better advertised. (2) If Myatt was an agent for a proper spy agency, a civilian wouldn't be able to connect the dots between the ONA, the neo-Nazis, and his new little Muslim thing. (3) Such a kind of involvement in neo-Nazism and Islam are entirely in line with the ONA writings: read them and see. (4) Technically, if you're the type of person who agrees with the ONA writings, you should be considered a security threat, since the point seems to be to slaughter the inferior and enslave the world. So in summary, as Napoleon once said: "it's needless to assume the existence of a conspiracy when something can be just as easily explained by normal human stupidity". AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 13:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
    • This allegation (and rumor) has been made against Myatt a few times, always without any supporting evidence, like the much touted allegation (and rumor) that Charlie Sargent, who founded Combat 18, was a Police or MI5 agent or informant. It's the kind of disinformation that seems to fuel some people's belief in various conspiracy theories - or the kind of disinformation spread by people who have an axe to grind (political or otherwise) or who want to discredit someone they don't like (for whatever reason). For those who can apply a little rational thought to the known facts, "the truth" is really out there and is often quite simple (Occam's razor, anyone?). But it takes a certain effort to find, in many cases. In Myatt's case, people who make such allegations, or repeat such rumors, don't bother to read his poetry, his personal letters, or what he's written about his own life in diverse autobiographical writings. That should allow them to get a complete picture of the man. Now, while I'm on the subject of Myatt - another unproven assumption about Myatt is that he is connected with, or led, or created (or whatever) this ONA. Myatt has consistently denied this assumption, and no one's ever offered any evidence in support of this assumption. Coolmoon 12:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Nevertheless, since it has been stated in a whole raft of secondary sources, we can still put it in this article. Feel free, though, to add as much as you want to the Myatt article from his own writings, if you've got them and the material can be added without violating the "original research" principle. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 14:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, it is stated by them, but it is an assumption that those writers have made, without presenting any evidence to substantiate such a claim. Therefore, it is only fair to make it clear that it is their assumption, not a "fact" - certainly, not something Myatt himself agrees with. It might be fairer to mention in the article that Myatt disputes their claims. BTW, great work on restoring the article. Coolmoon 18:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Yup, I think it's better to mention that Myatt denies it. My rationale is, multiple independent sources corroborate something that he denies, and if you sit down and read the ONA writings you'll know one thing the author will do is deny he wrote any of it, especially if he's in a leadership position of some organization. As it is, though, it can be reported here following the manual of journalism - i.e., "Person asserts that Myatt wrote the ONA tracts, a charge which Myatt denies", and add footnotes. That keeps Wikipedia safe, while leaving it to the external source to deal with arguments. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 02:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
BTW, how could they provide any evidence to prove that he wrote the ONA writings? I mean, I guess they could prove authorship by using Bayesian analysis (ooh, that gives me an idea for a project...), or by getting him to admit it. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 02:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Or, you can go to Google Books, and see there how David Myatt is listed as the author of one ONA book at Thormynd: [1]. He also published other books with Thormynd: [2] [3] [4] [5]. Unfortunately, all that counts as original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia articles. That's the funny thing - according to Wikipedia rules, the ONA is an organization because it's asserted so by authors, when really the only proof I've ever seen of its existence is a Christos Beest recording and the tripod site. So it's a hoax that attained reality. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 02:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
OK - if you (or anyone) assume(s) it's (the ONA) a hoax/myth/creation of one person/does not really exist as an organization /[fill in the blanks...] then it sure as anything is a clever hoax, that's interested quite a lot of people, and also possibly then a genuine work of magic(k), as in, for example, manipulating people to react in certain ways or do one's bidding (and so on blah blah blah). But AFAIK many people have been involved over the years, from "Thornian" in the States, who ran his own public branch of the ONA and who published ONA material from an address in Texas (I think it was Texas anyway), to people in Sweden, Brazil, Russia and elsewhere. Some of these "others" have even written some ONA material. But then again, isn't it, as often, just a question of one's personal opinion about something, and of a "secret" (or purportedly secret) group being somewhat illusive by nature [and illusive, maybe, in the sense of being magic(k)al]? Personally, I like the comment that Anton Long (whoever he is) was, and maybe still is, having a good laugh at our expense - i.e. was/is a Trickster, in the Jungian sense of course! Coolmoon 11:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
It'd be great if you could track down some of those other guys' writings, or otherwise figure out some way to add that information to this article. Cos right now, I think it reads too much like an article about a one-man hoax (or 2, if you include Christos Beest). And as far as being a trickster - that's actually rather Satanic of him, isn't it? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 12:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Some examples of writings by people other than CB or Mr Long are (1)camlad9.tripod.com/ea_1.html (2) Several stories about Sapphic relaitonships in early issues of the magazines Fenrir and "Exeat" (some signed Sister Bronwyn and one was called Dark Daughters of Chaos) (3) Articles - and some fiction - by Brenna, some published in later editions of Fenrir and elsewhere (there is one at ona.satanicwebsites.com/septenary/moon/griggins_nap.htm). The style of writing points to authors other than CB or Mr Trickster. Thornian had his own website, now long gone, but mainly sent printed material by mail from an address in Texas. Yes - it may be satanic (adversarial, surely is better) of Mr Long to do such trickster things, but as to who this person is, all we can do lacking proof or some "confession" or admission is make an assumption as to identity. Coolmoon 20:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Its good to see David and his security service handler adding to the already made up mythos behind the spook "David Myatt". 81.156.236.173 16:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing more depressing than when a person holds to a conspiracy theory that's not even rational or interesting. ONA as part of an MI5 sting operation? MI5 is actually cheap enough to re-use the same operative to infiltrate 3 different movements, after his connections to the first 2 were already exposed in published books? They're running short on agents? They let their operative publish books that all other Satanists disavow for being too hardcore? And there's no brown people in England who could be recruited to be agent provocateur muslim extremists? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 13:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Wolfrider

Please check the third party sources at the bottom of the article, e.g. by going to Google Books. The concern you have was dealt with in a previous AfD and Deletion Review - the group itself is notable because it is actually mentioned in third-party sources (some excerpts at google books were brought into the discussion at the drv), which then allows the first-party sources to be bootstrapped in when discussing what they "condone". Though you could just write that off as ONA being "merry pranksters" (um... or, as documented in third-party sources, white supremacist merry pranksters).

"Practice", however, was certainly an inappropriate word without third party sources, and I have deleted it.

This article used to be quite long before Tunnels of Set took the delete button to it before he AfDed the article, but to tell you the truth I've not felt like fixing the article up since it came back. Using their own social darwinist logic, if nobody sympathetic to ONA is interested in this article's continued existence, it may as well be deleted, so I won't contest your prod (though you can feel free to remove it yourself if you want). AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 16:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


Update: OK, I'm presently trying to add information to the article, and seem to have done a decent job so far. If anyone is reading this and wants to improve my formatting, fine, cos I have no clue how to format a proper complex Wikipedia article; but let it be known, this article is on my watchlist. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 12:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Appreciation of the work done

I would simply like to express my appreciation of the work done on this article. I was one of the contributors to the original Order of Nine Angles article that was available on Wikipedia before it was deleted. Many excellent references. Good job contributors! :-) User:DYBoulet 7:47 9 June 2007 (AST)

Agreed. This is a MUCH better article than it was a few months ago. :) --Wolfrider 19:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did it actually exist?

Did the "order" actually exist? We only have Myatts word ,and one or two other people willing to play along with the story. Although there were books published these were limited print runs and never got a wide audience. And the so called membership is also suspect. If the order existed why have there only been representations by psuedonyms? It just raises more questions. And how would a potential member apply for entry to the order? None of this is elaborated. which leads to the idea that there were no members.

Oh dear, here we go, again! If you had done some elementary research you would have found several ONA articles, and published letters, about using pseudonyms, and why they are used; and would have found some members who have gone public in the past - Vilnius Thornian in the States comes to mind (he even used his real name sometimes) plus some others. You would also have found *how to apply* even though the group was semi-secret in the 80's and 90's - for example, for years, there were contact details, via a series of PO Boxes, then an e-mail address, and so on blah blah blah. So, it is elaborated, in at least a dozen or so ONA essays and articles, some of which have even made it onto the Internet! Furthermore, *secret societies* by their nature are *secret* and the *secret* of joining is often knowing someone who's already a member, or a member sponsoring someone. This is how many Occult groups operated for centuries; and how some still do. There is life beyond the Internet, after all ;) Coolmoon 08:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Just to point out that there is still a link to SoDL. That website has been gone for months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.236.52.242 (talk) 02:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Blackwood and ONA

Someone has been inserting a link to a personal website by one "Blackwood" which makes unverified claims regarding the association of this Blackwood with ONA. According to the official ONA blog, this Blackwood and his groups have nothing to do with the ONA: http://nineangles.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/the-fantasy-of-blackwood/. Therefore, I've deleted the external link. Coolmoon (talk) 11:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)