Talk:Orcrist

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[edit] Previous owners

I removed the section on Ecthelion's previous ownership, it was pure speculation and based probably mostly on the published version of the Silmarillion, ignoring the existence of more elaborate versions of the history of Gondolin. Since I can't see any other OR going beyond obvious conclusions, I removed the warning. --OliverH 22:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I added that it was owned by an Elf of Gondolin, who would have most likely been Ecthelion. For the sake of discussion, the logic behind Ecthelion as the owner: - Being the mate to the King's sword and found in the Troll hoard, it must have come from Gondolin. - The elf must have died (or otherwise lost their sword) in the city. - Being an enchanted weapon as well as feared by orcs, it can be assumed it was weilded by someone of distinction, and likely nobility. With the third assumption and preceding two facts, it is frequently thought that the weilder must have been the head of the House (one of the named characters). Turgon, Maeglin, Rog, Tuor, Egalmoth and Galdor may all be excluded immediately, as either owning named swords (Turgon and Maeglin) or weapons that do not fit (Rog's hammer, Tuor's axe, Egalmoth's curved sword, Galdor's club). Furthermore, Egalmoth and Galdor survived to the Havens. Salgent's blade is unlikely to be feared, as he was craven. Glorfindel fell outside of the city. Duilin was an archer, and perished without drawing a sword in the fall. Thus he may be removed from speculation. This leaves two remaining candidates, of the named elves: Penlod and Ecthelion.

The argument for Ecthelion strengthens in that his sword was marked as remarkable ("it could harm their [Balrog's] fire"). This strengthens the argument that his sword (Orcrist or not) would have been enchanted. Concerning orcs being fearful, he kills Orcobal as well as two other orc captains.

Penlod, while a Captain, is not specifically noted as performing deeds other than being killed in the defense of the city.

With the above in mind, it would seem far more likely that Ecthelion (an Elf conceived before The Hobbit, and thus existing in Tolkien's mind to own the sword Orcrist) was the initial owner of the sword than for Orcrist to have an elf that remained unnamed.

In essense, the readers are filling in a gap with the most likely conclusion by using sufficient supporting evidence. That being said, I feel "most likely" is the strongest that can be said for Ecthelion's ownership as it is not canon.

[edit] Removal of OR tag

The nature of the claim is such that it cannot be disputed. This should be clear from the above remarks, however I'll reitterate them in short here (in specific defense of removing the OR tag):

- As written in The Hobbit, Glamdring and Orcrist were mates.

- That they would be thus related and be unrelated geographically can be deduced as wrong by a priori reasoning.

- Taking this premise as true, the above argumentation succeeds in supporting the conclusion (that Ecthelion weilded Orcrist) sufficiently to make the claim that he was the most likely carrier.

Until my reasoning is debated in the Talk section I will maintain that the article is correct without need of qualifiers. (Miguel Wonham 06:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

There is no need for debate. I have removed it based on the fact that Wikipedia is not a platform for speculation, or original thought. Whether it is logical or not (sure, I'd say it is logical that Ecthelion wielded Orcrist) Tolkien never mentioned who Orcrist was made for, and neither do any of the Tolkienists who have documented and written countless analytical adn expository pieces on.

This is an encyclopedia, not a blog. We are talking about Tolkien's work -- and as Tolkien never defines who wielded Orcrist in Gondolin, therefore, it shall remain unnamed in the article. What you are doing is speculating -- reasonably or not, it is still speculation. Ryecatcher773 18:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)