Talk:Orange

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WikiProject Disambiguation This page is part of WikiProject Disambiguation, an attempt to structure and organize all disambiguation pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Some disambig pages are anticipating "ambiguity" that has yet to occur. --Ed Poor

Wouldn't it only be disambiguating if there would be multiple entries with exactly the same name? If I did a search for "Orange", I could find any of these.

Admittedly, orange color and orange fruit would meet this, but probably not the rest.

--Alan D


I believe the color Orange is the heraldic tincture used by the House of Orange, deriving its name from the Principality of Orange (France) and lending its name to the citrus fruit. John McPhee, Oranges. Wetman 09:42, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Page move

Any opinions about moving Orange (colour) here and this article to Orange (disambiguation). Whether we do so or not, the fruit will remain at Orange (fruit). This is a very big dis-ambiguation page. 66.32.248.67 23:01, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's nothing inherently wrong with big disambiguation pages if there's a lot to disambiguate. See mercury, for example. And why not put Orange (fruit) here, then? We have 168 articles linking to Orange (fruit) and 132 to Orange (colour) (and 60 linking to the disambig page, incidentally, of which some should be corrected). But then again, Google gives 11 million hits for "orange" and "color", and only 5.3 million for "orange" and "fruit" (plus 1.45 million for "oranges").
I think the call is sufficiently close to keep the page as disambiguation, and force people to explicitly say whether they mean the colour or the fruit. I do think we could do with some reformatting to put the colour and the fruit prominently at the top, as the most common meanings. JRM 09:08, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
"and 60 linking to the disambig page, incidentally, of which some should be corrected." What are you, terminally lazy? Go fix them already! JRM 00:35, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
Stop bossing me around! Done. 60 pages checked/edited, of which
18 wanted the fruit
16 were genuine links to the disambig page
12 wanted the color
8 were special and couldn't/shouldn't be edited
2 wanted the company
2 shouldn't have linked in the first place
1 wanted Orange, New South Wales
1 wanted Orange, Texas.
JRM 00:35, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
Just to drive home the point: is anyone still not convinced this disambiguation page is genuine and in the right place? Especially the fruit/color division will never be solved properly by moving one or the other here. Editors should always take care of checking their links, but when they don't, the disambig page is invaluable for spotting the otherwise invisible mistakes. JRM 00:43, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

Page move is done! The old page had a history (mostly appearing to be a c&p version of what's now at orange), so it's now at orange (disambiguation). Talrias (t | e | c) 19:42, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shades of orange

In accordance with Wikipedia:Disambiguation, I'm removing the links that merely have "Orange" in the title, assuming that there is no risk of accidentally linking to them. Orange River, Orange Free State and the Orange Order are not ever just called "Orange", for example (but do correct me if I'm mistaken in any of these). The House of Orange-Nassau is a dubious case—it has been referred to it as the House of Orange or simply Orange in Dutch, but I doubt this use is very prevalent in English. Removed.

I think the additions to the word "orange" are now substantial enough to reinstate its own article, to prevent cluttering up the disambig page. The article is short, but not a stub, and it has been put in context. Here's to hoping the deletionists won't trounce all over it. JRM 01:47, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

[edit] People

I disagree with the People section, and believe it should be eliminated altogether, for the reasons I gave above, and will state more clearly below.

Neither on Google nor on the Orange Order page am I led to believe that the Order is commonly referred to as just "Orange". Nobody will link to this page while expecting to get Orange Order. As Wikipedia:Disambiguation states:

Disambiguation pages are not search indexes -- do not add links that merely contain part of the page title where there is no significant risk of confusion.

I find it hard to believe that people would confuse "Orange" with "Orange Order". The question is not: does "Orange Order" have something to do with plain "Orange"? The answer to that is obviously yes. The question is: if people link to Orange or otherwise jump directly to an article named Orange, is it in any way plausible that they meant to refer to the Orange Order? The answer to that is obviously no. Compare mercury: this page lists Freddie Mercury, Project Mercury and the Bristol Mercury, but only because all of these can be plausibly referred to with just "Mercury".

The same holds for the House of Orange-Nassau. There is no risk of confusing this with "Orange". In Dutch, there is: "Oranje" is used to refer to the House as a whole. But in English, this doesn't play. Even the main article on House of Orange-Nassau doesn't even once use the plain word "Orange" in this manner. I'm not going to be bold because I haven't seen consensus yet, add your support/opposition as appropriate.

(And yes, I have something to say about the etymology section as well, but let's take it one step at a time.) JRM 13:38, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

For the Order, I have seen "Orange" without "Order" plenty of times, e.g. in the word "Orangemen".

I have seen plenty of times the House of Orange-Nassau referred to as the House of Orange.Anthony Appleyard 18:00, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

After some hefty searching, I'm now convinced that the House of Orange should stay. It appears that even in English, houses can be referred to by unqualified names: for example, Bernadotte; Romanov. In fact, there aren't even House of Bernadotte and House of Romanov articles, even though they're called that in the articles themselves... We seem to need some policy here: there is a Windsor disambig and thus a House of Windsor article (fair enough), there is a Bragança (royal house) (not House of Bragança, and the disambig page at Bragança doesn't mention it, which seems wrong), and there is a House of Dunkeld, but not Dunkeld! Some of this may just be assimilated from use in foreign cultures and match the predominant usage in English, and some of it may be genuinely mistaken. I'll leave all that for another day, however.
I still consider the Orange Order dubious. The word "Orangemen" isn't likely to sway me—it's an obvious derivative, and even if it's used in contexts where the Order isn't already known, Orangemen already redirects. These men are not just called "Oranges". However, since little harm comes from including superfluous disambig (unless the page gets very large), I think I'll just move on and leave it in. You say yes, I say no, so the sane thing to do appears to be to leave it in just in case.
Incidentally, this word put me on the track of Syracuse University. From that article: "Syracuse University's sports teams are officially known as the Orange, although the informal names of Orangemen and Orangewomen are still used." It seems we need another disambig entry... or do we? :-) JRM 20:33, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

[edit] House of Orange link

To potential contributors: please don't change House of Orange to House of Orange-Nassau. I know this is where House of Orange redirects to, but that's what redirects are for. Note that the House of Orange was a separate historical entity that just happens to be mentioned in the main article instead, and that House is what "Orange" can refer to. We don't need disambig for House of Orange-Nassau, after all—the "Nassau" part sort of eliminates that need. JRM 20:45, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

(Comment copied from JRM's talk page.)

Orange (word) is a specialized page which centers on the process of trying to find rhymes for the word. As the two etymologies apply to all the meanings of the word ""orange"", I thought that it was better to put the etymology in with the list of all the meanings. Anthony Appleyard 18:31, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Orange (word) is about the word "orange" in the English language. If it happens to focus on rhyming, that doesn't mean the etymology shouldn't be there. In fact, it's pretty silly to exclude it, and it's bloating the orange (fruit) article for no good reason.
Even if we consider that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, if we do have an article on a word, with encyclopedic information (like thou), there's no reason to exclude facts just because they would also end up in a dicdef. I've taken the liberty of moving the info and rewriting it. (And in fact, I'm still quite busy, but this particular edit has been lingering long enough.) JRM 02:23, 2004 Dec 5 (UTC)

[edit] Revised last para

I have rephrased the last paragraph -- was

reason - the Orange Order was not formed until 1795 long after the House of O was on British throne. Orange Order mentioned earlier, so no need to increase prominence with second mention, but seems worth noting William of Orange specifically. --mervyn 14:04, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Too many wikilinks and piping

from the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages):

  • Unlike a regular article page, don't wikilink any other words in the line, unless they may be essential to help the reader determine which page they are looking for; these pages aren't for exploration, but only to help the user navigate to a specific place.
  • Don't pipe the name of the links to the articles being listed, e.g. Moment (physics). In many cases this may be all the user needs to find what they're looking for.

I think if these guidelines were followed here the page would be a lot clearer and it would be easier to find the link you are looking for. --Vclaw 02:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)