Talk:Orange Order

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[edit] My opinion

this article tries to make the orange order look like they're persecuted by catholics. I suggest re-editing completely and involve say someone who isnt a catholic OR protestant. Stick to the issue and dont involve personal opinion.


"There are two related organisations, the increasingly left-wing militant Apprentice Boys of Derry (named after Catholic guild apprentices who refused entry to and preented a besieging French army from entering Derry),"

This is wrong is so many ways I don't even want to begin correcting it.

Jmwalsh...

I have not said anything about the Orange Order in Ireland because there is little information available about its history there. I gather it has been most extensively studied in Canada. I leave it to those who are better informed than I to fill in its Irish role. If you check my profile you will notice I have a Catholic name, but I am neither Catholic nor Protestant. Jfitzg

The page has improved greatly - thanks Efghij - but it still needs a little npov and more information. It's sometimes a hard subject for those involved to discuss "neutrally" though. Paul

[edit] Opening paragraph & fair comment

Something needs to be done to the opening paragraph, which at the moment reads as if the Orange Order were some sort of benign charitable organisation like the Lions Club or something. I added the following carefully NPOV statement, to try to put this right: In April 2004 a Scottish court ruled that it was fair comment to describe the organisation as "sectarian", "anti-Catholic" and "protestant-supremacist". [1]. User:Hcheney reverted this, saying "revert - this edit is blatantly POV; this is relevant for either the Galloway or Ingram article, not the Orange Order - this should be included if the House of Lords upholds the ruling upon appeal" Apart from the patent nonsense about the House of Lords - there is no suggestion of an appeal, as far as I know, and even if there was it seems extraordinarily unlikely that it would go to the Lords - it is clearly untrue to say that my edit was POV. It is the very model of a NPOV ststement. "X says Y about Z" It doesn't say that the Orangemen are "sectarian" etc, it says that a Scottish court has ruled that to say so is fair comment. GrahamN 17:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we're referring to the comment an an NPOV one - I'm with User:Hcheney on this. Primarily, it's a statement of the form "W said X about Y's statement Z" - which is hardly an authoritative or appropriate basis for inclusion in Wikipedia. It is, clearly, a point of view.

To further explain why this comment is inappropriate, consider the meaning of Fair comment in UK law. Fair Comment does not necessarily imply that the comment is either true or fair. Essentially, all it says is that the opinion was honestly held, and not given maliciously or recklessly without regard to the facts. The discussion may also need to be on a matter of "public interest" as well (which might exclude certain comments on someone's private affairs). The court said little more than that the opinion quoted might be honestly held, and did not defame an individual. The test for inclusion in an NPOV Wikipedia article is stronger than that.

It is quite in order to include such documentary evidence as you may find of anti-catholicism, sectarianism, or supremacist statements (though less emotive terms might be helpful). On the other hand, it adds nothing to the debate to say that a Scottish court found that someone's opinions on the subject did not meet the legal definition of defamation of an individual.

I propose to delete the "point of view", after a brief period of reflection.

Given that the organisation itself claims not to be supremacist, the NPOV guidelines suggest that such views might be more appropriately discussed in an Opposing Views section.

Paul 17:39, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The sentence in the article could not be more neutral. It is a straightforward statement of fact about a specific court ruling, supported by a reference. It says what it says, no more and no less. If you know about Scottish law, and about and the precise meaning of the term "fair comment" under that code, then it would be nice if you could write us an article about it, because there doesn't seem to be one at present. Thanks. GrahamN 24 October 2004 [Not logged in because I seem to have forgotten my password]

Neutrality is about more than just sticking to factual statements. It's about the tone of an article and the balance of its overall presentation. However the sentence in dispute should be left out of the opening paragraphy simply because it's not very important. As Paul says it also gives a very misleading impression to someone not aware of the legal definition of 'fair comment'. There should be some reference to the controversy in the opening paragraph though. I suggest we change the sentence to something like:

The Orange Order is the subject of controversy, with some accusing it of being sectarian and anti-Catholic.

I would also question the description "exclusively Protestant" in the intro. Obviously it is a true statement but the fact that only Protestants are permitted is a detail that would usually be left for the body of the article. It currently reads like the first sentence of the intro has been deliberately written to draw attention to one particular criticism of the organisation. "The Orange Order is a Protestant fraternal organisation" is sufficient for the intro.

Iota 19:27, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Neutrality and balance are both eminently desirable in an article, but they are different things. Neutrality is about sticking to verifiable facts without editorialising or explicitly taking sides: it is an objective quality that is not open to negotiation. Balance, on the other hand, is about including a reasonable variety of facts and viewpoints, and it is necessarily subjective. One person's balanced article is another person's biased one. The rules of Wikipedia demand neutrality; but balance, being subjective, cannot be codified in policy. It is an aspiration that we all strive towards, but it cannot be legislated for. Balance in a controversial article such as this may emerge over time after many people have contributed to it.
The sentence re the Scottish court ruling is objectively neutral (in the sense that I'm using the word - which is the sense in which it is generally used by Wikipedians), but it has now been removed to help serve Iota's legitimate, but nonetheless subjective, idea of balance. The new wording is demonstrably less neutral than original. Instead of being specific, naming people, times and places, it now asserts in a general way that "some catholics and nationalists" accuse the O.O. of being sectarian. This is certainly true, but it overlooks the fact that many others who, like me, are neither catholic nor nationalist, also make such accusations.
Iota, I disagree when you say that these allegations are "not important". Most people in the UK and in Ireland see the Orange Order as an anti-catholic sectarian group, and to us that is the most significant thing about it. Whether or not we are correct to see it that way, we do so, and this is an important fact relating to the organisation. In my opinion, a balanced article needs to make this clear towards the beginning. The fairest way to do this is to include a demonstrably neutral statement such as the one about the Scottish court ruling.
I agree with you that there is a problem with making it clear exactly what "fair comment" does or does not mean. There are two ways to solve that: we could research and write a good article about the precise meaning of "fair comment" in Scottish law, or we could replace the sentence with a specific reference to accusations of sectarianism from a different source. Until that is done, I think we will have to put up with the slightly unsatisfactory "fair comment" sentence. I'm afraid I just can't accept the fudge of "some catholics and nationalists allege...". It's just not balanced!
GrahamN 15 November 2004 [Blasted password still eludes me]


Graham N wrote:

Iota, I disagree when you say that these allegations are "not important". Most people in the UK and in Ireland see the Orange Order as an anti-catholic sectarian group, and to us that is the most significant thing about it.

To the contrary, I absolutely agree that the fact that a lot of people see the Orange Order as sectarian is important. That's why i tried to reword the intro to express that. What is unimportant is what a judge happened to say on a particular occasion about an obscure point of law, because that is what it amounts to once you take into account what "fair comment" actually means.

The new wording is demonstrably less neutral than original. Instead of being specific, naming people, times and places, it now asserts in a general way that "some catholics and nationalists" accuse the O.O. of being sectarian ...we could replace the sentence with a specific reference to accusations of sectarianism from a different source

The new wording may have been a general statement but i dont agree that it was POV. I dont think that anyone would really deny that "some/many Catholics think the OO is sectarian". Nor is it always inappropriate to use general statements. The introduction to an article is supposed to be a short summary that encapsulates all of the most important things about the topic without going into specifics. So we could write "Sinn Fein/the Ancient Order of Hibernias/X/Y/Z thinks the Orange Order are sectarian" but that is too specific for the intro and would leave out the fact that many of its critics dont belong to any organisation and may (like yourself) not fit into any other neat category. IMO it is ok (and often necessary) to use general statements although it is best to back them up with more specific details later in the main body of the article. This is the way things are done in plenty of other articles.

..some catholics and nationalists" accuse the O.O. of being sectarian. This is certainly true, but it overlooks the fact that many others who, like me, are neither catholic nor nationalist, also make such accusations.

This is a reasonable criticism.

Until that is done, I think we will have to put up with the slightly unsatisfactory "fair comment" sentence. I'm afraid I just can't accept the fudge of "some catholics and nationalists allege...".

I dont think it's acceptable to continue with a highly problematic (and IMO POV) sentence until a better one is agreed upon. The statement may be a neutral attribution but IMO it is still POV (in spirit at the very least) to draw attention to criticisms of a group by using a statment that (a) is highly misleading and (b) amounts to promoting to the intro a fact that is not important enough to go there. I have tried again with an alternative wording:

The Orange Order is the subject of some controversy, accused by some, especially Irish Catholics and nationalists, of being a sectarian organisation.

Remove that sentence if you really must. But please dont put back the bit about the judge and fair comment, at least until we can find some consensus, because i really feel strongly that it is not acceptable.Iota 03:01, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)


--Aughavey 21:04, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)The paragraph inserted about the 2005 St Patrick`s Day parade in Cork is entirely incorrect. The Orange Order were invited to send a small group to participate in the Cork St Patrick`s Day parade as part of a celebration of the cultural diversity of the island of Ireland as well as Cork being the European City of Culture. The Orange Order accepted the invitiation. A single Belfast Lodge with their wives and children were to have participated in the parade alongside Africans, Filipines and Chinese families as well as the usual paraders. It was not until the parade organisers received some threatening phone calls stating "we know who you are and what you are planning" that the Orange Order consulted the Gardai (Police) about safety and subsequently withdrew on the grounds of the safety of their wives and children whilst thanking the parades organisers for their invite and they hoped to be reinvited next year. The question therefore is who is intolerant? The Orange Order for accepting an invitation to march not only in the South of Ireland but in Cork alongside other minority groups on St Patricks Day (and no doubt wearing spriggs of Shamrock as they usually do)? Or the small minority issueing threats? There was no local outcry at all just a few extremists mostly from Northern Ireland. To back this up:- Orange Order pulls out of parade http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4275523.stm Protestant cleric attacks invite to Orangemen http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/Full_Story/did-sgzWW0VMhhfecsglO-LCk0lQvU.asp Orangemen to march in Cork http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1482649,00.html Orangemen Set To March On St Paddy's Day In Cork http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/18282

[edit] Instruments

Isn't there some particular instrument (pipes, flutes?) that is associated to the order and Irish Catholics wouldn't play?

Yes. The lambeg drum --Leathlaobhair 18:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The Lambeg drum (will the link turn blue?) used to be played in AoH parades, and a handful of Irish musicians of a more 'green' tradition still play them. --Mal 03:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Presbyterian bar

The Order is indeed controversial in non-members' eyes.

I think the article should mention that Presbyterians were excluded from joining until c. the 1840s. They don't often mention that do they?


I don't understand why there is a fairly hefty, seperate exposition of the Glorious Revelotion on this page. Obviously it is very bound up with the Orange Order's history, but I think that mention of the effects of 1688-89 should be more intergrated into a description of the Order's history. Having a long discursion on the political effects of the Glorious revolution just looks clumsy on a page about the Orange Order, as opposed to on a page on the Glorious Revolution.

[edit] Recent edits and historical fact

For starters, the phrase, "It is a historical fact..." should go. Either state it because everyone agrees and it won't be controvercial, or cite an unbiased source. I'm not saying it's not true (I have no idea), "it is a historical fact" is generally a red flag for arm-waving.

Next, I do like the entry, but parts of it are very wordy, and read more like a tribute to the order than an encyclopaedia entry. I'd suggest trimming out some of the quotes and generally covering the facts surrounding the order.

Just some suggestions. Overall, quite nice. -Harmil 28 June 2005 19:03 (UTC)

Aughavey 29 June 2005 01:05 (UTC) i would like to know where lapsed pacifist gets his facts from. The Adelaide Hospital Society has not disbanded http://www.adelaide.ie/

Aughavey 29 June 2005 01:11 (UTC) I also dispute the insertion of the word "similar" and / or "religious" in this sentence. The Orange Institution contributed more members than any other organisation full stop. "The Orange institution saw more of its members serve and make the supreme sacrifice in the First World War than any other religious organisation."

Aughavey 29 June 2005 07:19 (UTC) I also note that lapsed pacifist has changed the following "defeating the Fenians at Ridgeway, Ontario in 1866. An obelisk there marks the spot where Orangemen died in defending their country against the Fenian invaders." to read "the colony". Canada was the Province of British North America and then in 1867 the Dominion of Canada not a colony.

Small point: Aughavey changed "largely based in northern Ireland and western Scotland " to "largely based in Northern Ireland and western Scotland". This was probably a reflex edit, or did you really intend to exclude Donegal? --Red King 29 June 2005 17:35 (UTC)

Aughavey 29 June 2005 21:57 (UTC) "as the Catholic Church requires its adherents to make all reasonable efforts to raise all their children in the same religion, regardless of the other parent's faith." The Catholic churches Ne Temere decree: in earlier times Catholics had been discouraged, even forbidden, by their church from being married by anyone but a priest. Nevertheless, if a Catholic were married by a Protestant minister, the marriage was recognised by the church as valid. Then in 1908 the pope issued a decree, known from its first words as the Ne Temere decree, stating that in future the church would not recognise such marriages as valid.

That is no longer applicable.FearÉIREANN\(talk) 29 June 2005 23:10 (UTC)

Aughavey 30 June 2005 08:46 (UTC) The Ne Temere decree is still in effect. To clarify the line "It is opposed to the Good Friday Agreement."

Wednesday 15 April 1998 The Grand Orange Lodge, the ruling body of the Orange Order, decided not to support the Good Friday Agreement. While not rejecting the Agreement outright the members demanded clarification of a number of issues from British Prime Minister, Tony Blair before it would consider changing its position. [During the referendum campaign the Orange Order came out against the Agreement.]

With regards to the charity sction. The charities listed are Orange owned and run charities. The Orange Order routinely does charitable work for other charities which as stated are given a small amount of coverage.

Aughavey 4 July 2005 18:15 (UTC) With refernce to:- "During the 1992 marching season, the then British Secretary of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew declared "the actions of the marchers would have disgraced a tribe of cannibals" after Orangemen taunted residents of a Catholic neighbourhood they were marching through about the recent murders of five locals by the UDA. The UDA members had killed the men (who had no paramilitary connections) when they sprayed a betting-shop with gunfire. The UDA was made an illegal organisation by the British government shortly afterwards."

Whilst relevant it is worth pointing out this has more to do with "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland, the political status of Northern Ireland rather than direct the Orange Order.

The Universit of Ulster CAIN website records the following:-

Betting Shop Killings / Bookmaker's Shop Killings On 5 February 1992 five Catholic were killed in a gun attack on a bookmakers (a licensed betting shop) in the Ormeau Road area of Belfast. In a statement claiming responsibility the Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF), a cover name (pseudonym) used by the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), concluded with the words "Remember Teebane".

Note Teebane: Teebane On 17 January 1992 the Irish Republican Army (IRA) exploded a bomb killing eight Protestant civilians who had been travelling in a minibus past Teebane crossroads between Cookstown and Omagh, County Tyrone. The men had been working at a military base in County Tyrone and were travelling home when the attack occurred.

The tit-for-tat killings were not uncommon throughout the 30 year troubles in Northern Ireland before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

Aughavey 5 July 2005 09:57 (UTC) "as well as French Hugenots (including the ancestors of Davy Crockett) fleeing persecution from the Catholic Church. There were also a number of English settlers, largely Anglican. The ruling Anglo-Irish had already been in Ireland for centuries."

I think it is important to note that the Anglo-Irish had been ruling Ireland from dublin for centuries before the plantation of Ulster. Another interesting fact is that in 1155 the then "Bishop" of Rome, Pope Adrian IV granted control of Ireland to England. The grant was confirmed in 1172 by the then "Bishop" of Rome, Pope Alexander III in 1172. I do not believe that this grant has ever been revoked.

This is not quite right (the bit about the anglo-Irish anyway). The "Old English" of the pre-Elizabethan era were not the same people as the "Protestant Ascendancy" of the 17th century onwards. They had been very largely integrated into Gaelic society by the time of the tudors and even the more "English" Pale community were excluded from power because they remained Catholic after the reformation. Because of this, the "Old English" became "Irish" over the course of the 17th C, both in the eyes of the Authorities and in their own identity. Re the Pope, I believe this would be revoked by the fact the vatican recognised the Irish Free State in 1922! Not to mention the fact that the Popes had been backing Spanish, French and Jacobite claims to the throne of Ireland from 1580 - 1750 or so. Jdorney 13:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


Aughavey 5 July 2005 10:01 (UTC) "Many of its members also belong to the Democratic Unionist Party and various loyalist paramilitary groups."

Whilst it is certainly true that there may be members who associate with such things it is entirely against the rules. I is entirely possible that many school teachers, many civil servants or anything else are members of Loyalist paramilitaries. Each private lodge is responsible for its own discipline but anyone convicted of a serious crime would normally be expelled from the Order although it is at the lodges discretion to vote on it ie someone who genuinely repents of a previous crime (since Jesus forgives sin) may be accepted as a member etc.


Aughavey 13:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC) "In 1870 and 1871, 60 people were killed in riots in New York City during Orange Order marches in the city. Orange marches in the city have been banned ever since."

This is absolutely not true.

Aughavey 17:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC) "Nine people had been killed and more than a hundred injured (including women and children) during the parade the year before, when a riot broke out after the marchers had taunted Irish Catholics with sectarian songs and slogans. The ban appalled many nativists, who saw it as bowing down to the wishes of the Irish Catholic immigrant community. "

have you any evidence of this lapsed pacifist? seeing as you previously stated the above that they were banned to this day i will take you points of view, which they clearly are, with a pinch of salt. The accounts of the attacks on the Twelfth (of July) 1870 picnicers by 500-600 men makes a gory story; nine died in the affray, and, perhaps, 100 were injured. A reporter of the "New York Times" blamed the Roman Catholics. He said, "The attack was premeditated and altogether unwarranted." Archbishop McCloskey, and the Irish clergy, who spoke against any counter demonstration on the Twelfth, were condemned by Thomas Kerrigan, President of the New York Hiberniansduring a speech where he condemned the attitude of the churchmen, and the Roman Church's attitude to Orangeism in Ireland. He promised that it would not be permitted to act in the same way in America.

[edit] NPOV check

This article raises serious NPOV issues.

  1. The further down one goes, the less NPOV the text and the more pro-Orange Order (or more correctly, the more 'isn't it a wonderful organisation') the tone gets. In particular, the article's repeat use of 'brethren' to describe the Order implies a relationship between author, reader and topic that breaches NPOV. 'In house' terms used by any organisation should be used sparingly or in quotes, not in general language throughout the article.
  2. Its coverage of the alleged negatives of the order, though strongish in some areas, is not sustained.
  3. The list of charitable work by the Order again adds to the 'aren't they great!' tone. Most organisations are involved in charity work but Wikipedia doesn't list the work in detail. It warrants no more than 1 or 2 paragraphs here, not a big chunk of the page.

Furthermore the article needs extensive wikifying and major editing, to conform to encyclopædic standards. FearÉIREANN\(talk) 29 June 2005 23:44 (UTC)

[edit] History

I tidied up the history section because I thought it was a bit of a mess. It went forwards and backwards in time and went into too much detail on things that were not really relevant, like the Glorious Revolution. I think this article could also lose the paragraphs about the flight of the earls and the 1641 rebellion to be honest. There's articles already on all these things if people want to contribute to them. Jdorney 15:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

It looks like you accidentally removed a huge chunk from the end. See relevant edit. The page now ends rather abruptly: "At the second sessions of the State Grand Lodge of New York in June, 1874 there were discussions on further T"
Redgrittybrick 21:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about that, didn't realise I had done it. Just revert it. Jdorney 22:54, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Fixed now (I think). Redgrittybrick 20:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I've taken out most of the more blatantly biased language, but I feel the article could probably be improved in other ways. XYaAsehShalomX 17:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


"The "Laws and Constitutions of the Loyal Orange Institution of Scotland", 1986 state: "No ex-Roman Catholic will be admitted into the Institution unless he is a Communicant in a Protestant Church for a reasonable period." Likewise the "Constitution, Laws and Ordinances of the Loyal Orange Institution of Ireland" (1967) state: "No person who at any time has been a Roman Catholic.... shall be admitted into the Institution, except after permission given by a vote of seventy five per cent of the members present founded on testimonials of good character . . . "(39) In the 19th century, Rev. Dr. Mortimer O'Sullivan, a converted Roman Catholic was a Grand Chaplain of the Orange Order in Ireland.

In the 1950's Scotland also had a converted Roman Catholic as a Grand Chaplain - Rev. William McDermott"

quote taken from the article:-

THE ORANGE ORDER:

An Evangelical Perspective

ORANGEISM COMPARED WITH FREEMASONRY

SOME EVANGELICAL OBJECTIONS CONSIDERED

A REPLY TO W.J.McK.McCORMICK

By REV. IAN MEREDITH B.A., M.Th. Grand Chaplain Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland & REV. BRIAN KENNAWAY M.A. Deputy Grand Chaplain Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland

[edit] Page move

I undid the cut and paste move of February 2006 from Orange Order to Orange Institution, but there is talk both at Talk:Orange Order and Talk:Orange Institution. I prefer the former, as do the incoming links. --Henrygb 00:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)