Talk:Operation Linebacker

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The title of this article is not neutral, it is in fact propaganda. Añoranza 12:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Why? You have something against football? This is just absurd. This was the most common name for it because, gasp, it's the most accurate way to refer to it. What would you prefer? [[U.S. bombing and interdiction campaing against North Vietnam (1972). Should we rename the Easter Offensive to March 1972 attempted North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam? Let's not be daft. --Mmx1 15:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you can't forget the South Vietnamese were involved. How about March 1972 attempted Democratic Republic of Vietnam's invasion of, and the Republic Of Vietnam's temporarily successful defense of the Republic Of Vietnam. That, my friend, takes into account both sides perspectives, thereby being more neutral. "Easter Offensive" is highly offensive because it is a propaganda term linking war o what some consider a holy day, thereby giving an impression of a just crusade on North Vietnam's part, and makes it appear as though South Vetnam laid back and helplessly took a beating. Likewise, it uses the proper names of the countries involved, not the colloquial American usage of North or South Vietnam.--Nobunaga24 15:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

whoops, sorry about that; got bit by the google/firefox thing. Uninstalling the former now.... eck. --Mmx1 16:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it is a propaganda name, thus not neutral and inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Añoranza 20:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Dude, you sound like a broken radio. What do you propose as an alternative? The operational name is the most relevant, concise, and historically used one. --Mmx1 20:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems other disagree with you on the POV issue, perhaps a vote? --zero faults |sockpuppets| 20:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
You know there is an ongoing discussion. Until consensus has been built, the POV-tag has to stay. Añoranza 20:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Correct hence the need for a vote. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 20:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Ongoing discussion? You against the world? There is no ongoing discussion, just one individual. There is a consensus. You alone disagree. On page, after page, after page...... The tag here, and everywhere else, needs to go. --Nobunaga24 23:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There's nothing "propoganda" about this title. We shold leave the name as it is. Johntex\talk 20:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The argument is absurd. The whole point of an encyclopedia is to enable the user to find information on a topic--how can re-naming this article do anything to help this? The point of its title is that there are scores of books and articles out there that make reference to an operation named "Linebacker" and this article provides an easy-to-locate means to the information. You twice make the allegation of "propaganda" but fail to make even the slightest point in how so. Your "campaign" seems to be either an ego-trip or political, whereas the article, including its name, is neither.--Buckboard 07:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Loss figures

The figures quoted as of this date are demonstrably wrong, even if sourced. Please re-check your sources for time frame, services, etc. The figure "52" is not supported by the figures quoted, which add up to 38. The idea that Freedom Train had more losses than Linebacker is patently absurd, and the figure of 17 air-to-air losses during Freedom train is also way off base (one, a Navy F-4B, is the actual figure for April). Also, there were 11 MiGs shot down air-to-air on May 10 alone, documented by many, many sources and by this very article--so we are to believe that there were only 8 more between then and October 23? Ritchie-Debellevue had 4 after May 10, DeBellevue-Madden 2 more, and Feinstein 4 more--that's 10 right there. Both Francillon and Rasimus list US aircraft lost by type, serial/bureau number, crew names, method of loss, and date. I will check my original numbers posted against them and revert unless somebody can show why the numbers in place now should be used. The total loss figure is actually higher than shown.--Buckboard 11:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Since no one has apparently seen this since I posted it, I went myself to the first source listed and found and corrected an obvious error made in transferring from source to article, and what appears to be an inadvertant contradiction on the same source page, which list 14 aircraft lost to MiGs "during Freedom Train" (middle of the page) but at the bottom of the page lists 1 lost to MiGs during "Freedom Train". (The latter is correct, a USN F-4B of VF-51 off the Coral Sea on April 27). I believe Head's to be is a partial accounting of losses, self-described as "through June 1972", and thus includes mainly Linebacker losses, and so edited the narrative as shown. I still question the remainder of the paragraph, which does not define the period by dates. The figure of "63 VPAF aircraft destroyed, 19 air-to-air" is clearly in error except by defining a narrow period. The Navy alone shot down more than 19 -during Linebacker and the AF about 40. If this is to be an "A" article, then this critical part of the article ought to (a) be clear, and (b) accurate. The error I found in the article, and the app. contradiction in the source, suggests that it is not yet so. A word about sources, particularly those listed as "government documents": no matter which side one looks at these campaigns, one needs to remember that all of these authors have an axe to grind. Tilford's, for instance, is in much dispute and is NOT a history, much less a definitive one, but an argument. Moreover the fact that he's published by Air University does not bestow a mantle of unassailable credibility on his hyperbole--he was a ranking civilian (former USAF) on staff at AU and the book is in effect self-published with government funds. (Schlight's monograph was written somewhat in response.) AU is a funny animal, very (some would say "overly") concerned about its "image" in academia since 1980, and prone to go against doctrine.--Buckboard 10:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RE Earl Tilford

Just curious concerning the facts gleaned from Tilford's work. What exactly do find contradictory or contrary to fact (as you accept them) in the quotes from his work in this article? The only move from straight fact was his positive opinion that the AF had moved to a more modern phase, is that out of line? RM Gillespie 12:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If that was directed me and taken to be a rant, then you have my apology. I have no real problems with any of this article, but losses in this and other US operations has been something I've studied repeatedly for 30 years. The page I referred to above was the page (of Tilford) cited in the article as the source for the figure used. On that page the information given contradicted itself--"14" in one reference, "1" in another. The "1" was correct. IJMO but Tilford is an academe who uses his past service as a USAF officer where it helps him to establish credibility; otherwise he backs away from it. I've read his stuff and in my opinion it would be polemic if, say, it were about Catholic doctrine rather than Air Force doctrine. My main thrust is that we tend (I am as culpable of this as anyone) to see "US govt" and consider it a document, when it is actually an academic argument. As I said, if it came off as a rant (which to me it did on re-reading) then I apologize because the work done before is excellent.--Buckboard 11:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RE NVN and NVA

Have reverted all instances of references to NVA and NVN from the article. There is not and never has been a nation named North Vietnam. There is not and never was a military force named the North Vietnamese Army. Both are western constructions and since we are striving for historical accuracy (see above) I believe we should use the titles prefferred by each belligerant power. Also removed reference to Communist China when it was already refferred to as the People's Republic and another reference to "Red" China. RM Gillespie 15:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It may prove difficult to re-title all of the history books, newspapers, and magazines, not to mention the recorded voices of President Nixon, his staff, Huntley/Brinkley TV reporters, and Walter Cronkite TV reporter and all of the Vietnam Veteran's usage of the terms North Vietnam, North Vietnamese Army, and Viet Cong, etc. Those are the historically accurate terms used, as recorded by history (noted above). During the cold war, Taiwan (also then sometimes called Formosa) was desperately trying to be recognized by the US, so to maintain friendly relations the US would term mainland China, as Red China or Communist China. These terms are historically correct. REFERENCE BOOKS ARE LABELED UNDER THOSE HEADINGS.

Have you ever seen a book titled "War over the DRV"?

The cold war is over. The 20th century is over. So now we can call North Vietnam the DRV.

Now, what do we do about those 20th century REFERENCE books? Example:

  Van Staaveren, Jacob: "Gradual Failure: The Air War Over North Vietnam, 1965-1966;
  Washington D.C., Air Force History and Museums Programs, 2002.
  • You are correct in your statement that, during the Cold War, the People's Republic was refferred to as "Red" China and that it was described in written (and spoken) works as such. None of the references to "Red China," North Vietnam, etc. that I removed from the article, however, was taken from a direct quote, and was therefore changed to its correct form. Or should Formosa (Taiwan) still be refferred to as the one and only China, as it was thirty years ago? I reiterate, they are western constructions, and, since Wiki is an international encyclopedia, correct usage and accuracy is paramount. RM Gillespie 15:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article could use some DRV perspective

This article is written from the perspective of the US. For example there is a lack of info on the DRV politics and mention of DRV players (or notable pilots, whereas notable US pilots are given a lot of attention). I know this may be due to the ease of finding info on US pilots and politics in english, but it would be nice if it could be somehow be made less US-centric. There has to be SOME information on DRV politicians and players. User:Brentt 20:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Good luck. There are no translated sources from the Democratic Republic of Vietnam related to the topic. Hopefully, that will change with the passage of time. RM Gillespie 15:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)