User talk:One Salient Oversight/ - Potters House archive

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[edit] Help

If you think he knows got to be worth talking to the police, and see what they say. Compile your evidence on User talk:220.233.86.223/dispute, found out as much as you can about the IP number, it does come from Australia (good from a legal point of view because the whole matter falls under their jurisdiction). http://www.perl-studio.com/iptocountry/index.php is the search engine. How close is your own IP number, which you will find at the link, to this users number.Post something at Wikipedia village pump (news).

I have now said I think User:Cumbey is creating sockpuppets and fighting against them. My evidence is simiklarity of IP addresses --SqueakBox 06:01, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User:Truth over relationship

Firstly, a caveat here: I haven't read the RFC in full yet. Only what Truth over relationship wrote. However, the RFC is not formatted correctly - this need to be fixed ASAP, otherwise it can't be endorsed and therefore it will deleted as an invalid RFC.

Secondly, however, I am now fully aware of the user and his totally unacceptable threats against you. Do you want him banned? I only ask you because I wish to know how seriously you take those personal threats. If you take them personally (you seem very open about who you are - this is a risk!) then I will be most happy to ban them. If not, then I will ask you to file a proper RFC over truth over relationship, this time with a recognised template. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:32, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've never done a RFC before - I was shocked by what happened and I couldn't find the right place to go to report it. I will go through the process, however.
As far as banning is concerned... I am very upset that he has decided to reveal personal information about me (where did he get it? That is what is bothering me). The actual nature of his threats, though, are only hinted at. He might just have gone off the deep end or he might be really wanting to hurt me. If the former is the case then we should ban the guy. If the latter is the case... I'm thinking of going to the police. But the problem is that his motive is just unknowable at the moment.
There are two pieces of evidence, though, which are important. The first is that he admits being out of jail for 6 years. The second is that he has suggested that he knows me. Whether the last point is true or not is disturbing because I have no idea who he is - but he knows where I live.
This is incredible. There is NO information that I have given out that gives anyone my address or phone number - except for emails that I have sent people. Yes my full name is available but there are many people of my surname in Newcastle. Besides which, our phone number is not down in the white pages under my name.
I'm scared. Pray for me bro. One Salient Oversight 08:56, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm rather afraid that you are in the white pages. I looked for you in Newcastle, used your surname and your intials and it brought up a Newcastle address and phone number. If you have an unlisted number, I strongly suggest you get on the blower to Telstra and get them to fix their mistake ASAP. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:10, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Personal_attacks_which_place_users_in_danger says, "Blocks may be imposed in instances where threats have been made or actions performed (including actions outside the Wikipedia site) which expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. In such a case a ban for a period of time may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery. Sysops applying such sanctions should confidentially notify the members of the Arbitration Committee and Jimbo Wales of what they have done and why. See No personal attacks."
If Neil feels it would be warranted, I would support an immediate ban of this user. — Matt Crypto 09:05, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I feel it is warranted. Please ban the guy. If he wants to contact me, he can email me. One Salient Oversight 09:24, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have now blocked him. — Matt Crypto 09:32, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How you were tracked down

You have your number in the White Pages mate. It's not hard to find you, but if you were wondering how he tracked you down, that's what happened. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:32, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think TimStarling is going to remove that information from the edit history. If he does, be sure to leave him a nice message and, well, I'm thinking a small donation to Wikimedia wouldn't go astray :) and please, please remove all that personal information from your user page so this doesn't happen again! You have children to think about! I say this as a concerned brother in Christ. I'd hate to see you get hurt. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:54, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
OK, User:Tim Starling is a legend! He's modified the old revision to remove your details, see [1]. I really think a small message is in order here :) Ta bu shi da yu 14:03, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not too sure about that - the white pages link I mean. There are two problems with this.
  1. How did he know my specific suburb? The suburb was not listed at Wikipedia. The only place it is is a current selling item on ebay.
  2. Although he got my phone number right, he had "07" at the beginning. If he copied straight from the White pages he wouldn't have done that. I think he copied it from a source that was slightly wrong.
  3. How did he get my email address? I very very rarely get spam, so it mustn't be widely propagated.
  4. I'll leave Tim a nice message. Money is tight - still unemployed.

--One Salient Oversight 21:13, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

He got me via a whois search. Honestly I had no idea that info in the internet could be so easily procured. One Salient Oversight 21:51, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


[edit] The truth will set you free

I used to preach in prison, I thought you knew some people who preached in jail - Your name could just of been a common name - I was trying to see if it was you. There was no area code, I put the 07 in as a throw off for any manics out there. No threats from me just a warning on what someone else may do, because all you info is out there and you are very vocal, negative and anti to some Church's and People for no apparent reason and unfounded.

I went to your user page which has huge amounts of info, and a link to your new website and did a whois search on your domain name. That’s it! - You are over reacting to the whole thing, There is no malice intended, just a warning of how much info you have out here on the internet and that if you slander - someone may send you a Civil claim for defamation.

I am not interested in you or anything you do, except for the truth to be put here on Wikipedia articles and I have only come across you in one article and you are ruthless at continued reversion and non collaboration. Remember also you have over the years continually put peoples names and listed people as evil or cultish or criminals etc. I did not think you would be so freaked out by it, I am a Forensic Programmer and thought by showing you your info you would see reason to be a little calmer in your attacks against certain church groups and pastors. Anyway if it upset you I am Sorry and wish you no harm.

I see you have now removed your wife and child and their birth dates and other info - that is good, you should continue to roll much of your personal info back in. But be warned it will still be in internet caches and Search engine caches for years. Try setting your Domain name settings to private - you may have to pay a little for that but it might be worth it.

Another Tip - dont post things you are not prepared to put your name to, I work in an industry where everything is traceable from user nick to user nick, forum to forum, even your hobbies give you away and dossiers may be collated by criminal elements for any use.

I write programs to track data anomalies and covered or hidden information in company and Department environments, this is used to track criminals or fraudsters or hidden assets etc. A name can generally be put to nearly everything written, said, threatened or stolen it just takes a little time, There are departments that already continually monitor and track these forums, user groups and discussion sites. This is the information age and if privacy is needed it is best to stay off the net, but practicality has to come in, the net is tool and should be used as such. Remember your details are continually recorded on the net everywhere so be sure you want to be credited with your comments forever, before posting.

One of the issues I had with you is that you refused to put in the balance, and your work past and present stands out to me (But I am trained to look for anomalies) you continued on in absolute ignorance and self righteousness, and probably still will, the article is now getting along fine with some good tidy ups by other editors. I also apologise that I am not as quick and neat in article presentation as you, and I too reverted your full-anti to a full-pro POV, I have learned now by reading many Tutorials and pages as to the style required -

I also believe that help and support to Noobs is what will gain more editors to Wikipedia.

Again sorry for inconvenience - lets move on. I hold nothing against you personally. Please forgive my hasty remarks and indiscressions

Truth over Relationship

[edit] Lies over Relationship

You're going to have to understand that your personal rancor towards me has inevitably led to a total lack of trust on my part for anything you say. Here is a religious group that appears to treat its former members and anyone who dares criticise it with threats of legal action... and then you decide to reveal all for everyone to see of my personal details. I was willing to give the Potter's House as much benefit of the doubt as I could muster. I am experienced editor who writes articles with a neutral tone, even though I myself (like all Wikipedians) have their own opinions and biases.

Is it true or is it not true that in 2001 over 100 churches left the Potter's house in the USA because they could not live under Wayman Mitchell's leadership?

Is it true that a Christian author wrote a book in the early 1990s that documented abusive behaviour in the Potter's House - a book that is published by one of the largest Christian publishing companies in the world (Zondervan) and is available to purchase at Amazon.com?

All this is evidence of something happening in the Potter's house. I sought to include this in the article because those events were recorded in external, verifiable sources.

Listen, you may have skills with computers and software - but you have very little skill in historical research. Moreover, you have made personal assumptions about me that I find offensive. Yes I am very critical of certain things going on in the Pentecostal church but I do this because I honestly believe that the Holy Spirit is leading me to.

Do you understand the word irony? It is applicable because of your name. You are not interested in truth, all you are interested in is attacking people who disagree with you. You are not interested in being obedient to God and His Word.

Ask yourself this - how would you feel if, in a disagreement with me, that I then label you a pejorative term, and then reveal personal details about yourself? Telling people where I live and my phone number? How would you feel if you thought that a person was diseminating your private information to others who may write threatening letters? What would you do? Call the police? Check the locks on your doors? Lie awake at night worrying about the safety of your family? Bingo buddy - that's whats happened to me in the last few days.

No one has ever done that to me before until now - a member of the Potter's House who calls himself a Christian. What a poor witness you are to Christ.

Not everyone has your skills - but now a lot of people have

One Salient Oversight 03:44, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time to give more information on the so called Abuses

Please List here your concerns with facts 1 at a time - please let me answer your concerns 1 at a time. vYou will need to list some details of 'The Incident' and provide some proof that it was a church abuse or a individual who was attending the church that was the abuser, a time/date/place etc exact nature of the abuse.

Like I said I have come across no abuses to date in 6 years in my experience and contact with approx 50 Pastors and 1500 church attendees, I have however read of some and investigated, as I said above so please lets establish the truth - because of this conflict 'let every word be established' I was hard pressed to find any real guts to the claims - and as a Forensic Programmer I look at them and find many cut and pastes which gives me no confidence in the claim, now I am not niave to the extent to understand that some may not know how to write there experience well, so they might of cut and pasted for ease.

I was saved outside of this church and did not attend the PH church for 2 years and I saw many things in other churches, until God called me to this church, Please note I have not attended a Presbyteran Church. Most of the churches I attended were of the sort of CLC, Baptist, COC, AOG. (I do not advocate Church Hopping - I was A new Christian with a lot to learn).

As you probably know there is no membership roll or such and no one signs up for a church, It is very much if you come you come and if you dont you dont. There is follow-up for newly saved Believers and The church does try to stay in contact with them for a period of time until they either understand or decide to move on.

I accept that there may be actual abuses, but lets establish them and document them properly as you are messing with a churchs and individuals reputations, which means we need facts, I certainly will admit all evidence I find either way.

I however, have seen people removed from the church service for the following reasons:

  • Bringing in weapons and displaying them
  • Yelling Abuse at the preacher
  • Physically assaulting someone in the church
  • Being Drunk and Loud
  • Spitting on people
  • Stealing of Purses or wallets

Most of these people from my observation were not established people in the church, there requests were of why cant you give me money or food like the salvos etc, or they were there the very first time and just walked in off the street, because of hearing music or seeing a sign for a movie etc.

Some of the above people while only being at church once would make a complaint to the newspaper or police and claim what they consider (NO Love Attitude) While police and authorities know us well and give us much support, they still investigate and statements are taken any time they require them. Understand also that the PH Church reaches out to all people including the very base and messed up people. Our will is to see people set free from their addictions and torments. But these people were hardly 'Members of the Church', Oh I know you would probably want to argue that but I would class a member of the body as one who is clearly established as a christian and of been to at least 5 services. What is your thought on when does an attendee become part of the church?

I have also seen a senior person leave a church after asking the Pastor to lend his biro, The pastor said why have you not got your own, as you are ministry you need to carry a biro. Well immediatly after approx. 9 years attending that person flipped out and left. After a period of time it was established that the person who left was living a life of looking the part. It was such a shame as the individual would of been sent out to pioneer next, but God has a way of exposing the heart if we dont change and keep refining for him. Who was wrong ?? There was an individual choice made I think - and there was no policy for carrying biro's it was a suggestion and maybe the straw that broke the camels back. Is this classed as an abuse? well the individual who left thought so and started spreading all sorts of lies, but the fruit of the man now is that of divorce, Alcohol and bitterness and anger. Are these the fruit of a christian with credibility? many people were deceived by that mans lies and yes he was exposed eventually but not after much harm to young tender christians, face it, it is all about souls making heaven their home. There was no chasing of this man or control on him, nor abuse it was all in his mind and when humans get stressed that sometimes happens. And he was freely able to walk out and not come back - it was his choice, there is no so-called death squad or follow up hit men.

Your actions above also seem extremist, I wish you no harm and wish to share with you much great understanding and learning but you have two fingers in your ears, and claiming foul. I say forget the past lets start again because you cant change the past, offences will come, its the future you can help change and mould. How about accepting my apology and lets start looking at these cases 1 at a time please.


Truth over Relationship

[edit] My response

  1. You publish my name, address and phone number.
  2. You admit that you have been out of jail for 6 years.
  3. You state that you will "mark me".

Why would I not freak out? If you're so apologetic, then send me your name, address and phone number. You have my email. Or better still, publish it here.

[edit] Comment on this

A second major exodus has taken place from a controversial network of churches criticized for authoritarian leadership. Up to 160 of the Potter's House movement's 800-odd congregations are said to have left the group recently.
Officially called Christian Fellowship Ministries (CFM), the Potter's House network was started in 1983 by Wayman Mitchell. A Prescott, Ariz., pastor, Mitchell broke away from the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel to launch his own movement, placing a strong emphasis on evangelism. Most of the group's churches are to be found in the Southwest, where they also go under the names The Door and Victory Chapel.
Some of the pastors who broke ranks recently are apparently upset by the direction CFM appears to be headed. There are also claims that Mitchell - whose movement has long been dogged by criticism that it is controlling, intimidating and manipulative - routinely uses foul language and derogatory remarks in the pulpit.
Mitchell declined to comment to "Charisma" magazine, but Harold Warner, a longtime CFM associate who pastors a church in Tucson, Ariz., said that Mitchell was not the sort of man many of his critics have portrayed him to be. "He is a good, strong leader," he said. "We are given great freedom to pursue our ministry, and it isn't this horribly oppressive atmosphere."
The Potter's House was hit by large-scale defections 10 years ago. When Colorado pastor Ron Jones, who had worked with Mitchell since the early 1970s, severed his ties in 1990, around 100 pastors followed him.
Larry Neville, a pastor who worked with Mitchell for 13 years until 1991, said that because CFM leaders were encouraged to aggressively plant churches, the departure of a few pastors who disagree with Mitchell could lead to a large number of churches leaving the movement.
The exodus was more an issue of churches' loyalty to their founding pastor than one of disagreement with Mitchell, he said. It was about "a personal relationship with someone they love." Mitchell said that around 100 of the 160 churches reported to have left CFM recently did so because of their loyalty to one pastor.
Bryan Hupperts, who was part of Potter's House for several years and was at one stage being groomed to become a CFM pastor, said that many pastors who left the movement did so because of unhealthy control and were later reluctant to talk about their experiences.
"Some of them have family in the Potter's House," he said. "They'll end up getting targeted. They can be pretty vicious." One former leader said there were families divided by departures from the movement who had not spoken for years, and "churches that have been deliberately split, children who don't talk to their parents."
Neville said there had been a move of God in CFM in the past, but over time the group moved into isolationism. "They're not sinning, but they're not moving on." Warner said that those pastors who left CFM recently were "people who have gone in a different direction."

Source: Charisma News Update

So. What is this news report? Is it a conspiracy of hatred perpretrated by Charisma magazine, or is it simply factual reporting of what actually happened? This is one of the links I put in.

One Salient Oversight 07:23, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:Ok I'll work on it, post most of report back tommorow.

I am trained to look for information Flaws, No offence meant by a 2 min summary below.

  • "Mitchell declined to comment to "Charisma" magazine"
  • "Mitchell said that around 100 of the 160 churches reported" - how could he say this if he declined to comment?
  • Obviously people and Churches left - There is no control to make people stay or to make them do anything.
  • Motive of the "Exodus" is really not defined. - This is a Crucial piece required.
  • Exact or close dates omitted.
  • "controlling, intimidating and manipulative" - How ????? No Suporting info.
  • "the Potter's House network was started in 1983 by Wayman Mitchell" - Misinformation
  • "Ron Jones, who had worked with Mitchell since the early 1970s" - This is the correct Date of start.
  • "did so because of unhealthy control and were later reluctant to talk about their experiences." - where did this info come from?
  • Children and parents not talking, yeah right. - Thats a Family thing, If at all it happened, try stopping children talking to their parents. (I have four Children - some experience)
  • Did you ever think that the Media might get it wrong? They are not perfect either.

End 2 Minute summary

I will look further - I am not trying to give you a hard time, just look at facts and work out a way to establish facts.

Did you know that the PH Approached Reinhard Bonnke Ministries in Germany to buy his main large revival tent in Africa for a large sum as Reinhard Bonnke ministries was leaving Africa, and Guess what Reinhard Bonnke said?

"the Potters House was such a powerful move of God, No I will give it to you, I have witness that this is the will of God" says Reinhard Bonnke.

Interesting isn't it - I know this is true and know the direct people involved. what is your thoughts on this?


Truth over Relationship

[edit] On this issue

Well, for someone who is trained in information flaws, you sure don't understand sentences.

Let me tell you something about myself. I am trained as a History teacher and as an English teacher. I know how to research sources to verify their reliability and I know how to read and construct sentences.

Let's start with problem no. 1

"Mitchell declined to comment to "Charisma" magazine" "Mitchell said that around 100 of the 160 churches reported" - how could he say this if he declined to comment?

If you had read the sentence properly you would have realised that the writer was quoting information he/she had received from Larry Neville. Mitchell did not speak to Charisma magazine, Larry Neville did, and he reported to the writer of the article what he heard Mitchell say.

Motive of the "Exodus" is really not defined. - This is a Crucial piece required.

The article itself gives enough information to the reader to make up their own minds. Paragraphs 3, 8, 9 and 10 answer this question of yours clearly.

Exact or close dates omitted.

Why is this a problem? The piece of literature you are reading is a news story. It is not meant to contain all possible information.

"controlling, intimidating and manipulative" - How ????? No Suporting info.

Same reason as above. The fact that they do not go into detail is not a reason to discount it as reliable evidence. It is a news story for crying out loud. It is also relying heavily upon the reader's own knowledge of the church. In my case, this news report, which I only read the other day, validated the experience of a friend who left PH 5-6 years ago and told me about it. I have met this guy who said that PH was controlling and abusive, and now, by chance, I read this article that says the same thing. Where there's smoke there's fire.

"the Potter's House network was started in 1983 by Wayman Mitchell" - Misinformation

They might be incorrect here. However, why is the movement called CFM, the Door and the Potter's house? Why so many names? Is it because Mitchell started the entire ministry in 1970 and then re-named a new movement in 1983 as the Potter's house? You need to tell me why there are so many names for the movement. It is possible that they all have different starting dates.

"Ron Jones, who had worked with Mitchell since the early 1970s" - This is the correct Date of start.

I'd say it is possible that Jones and Mitchell had been working together in ministry before CFM or Ph was founded. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

"did so because of unhealthy control and were later reluctant to talk about their experiences." - where did this info come from?

Bryan Hupperts - a former PH member. Read the &^%&* article!

"Children and parents not talking, yeah right

You summarily dismiss the reported issues surrounding ex-PH members. You trivialize their experience as essentially lying. The point this is making is that people have left PH and, as a result, family members are no longer talking to one another because one family member is in the church and the other is out of it and is being shunned. This is classic evidence of "cult-like behaviour" ie mind control.

"Did you ever think that the Media might get it wrong? They are not perfect either"

Oh gosh I never thought of that </sarcasm>. Who is "the media" here? Are we talking the godless media corporations here? No. We're talking about a magazine that is written by and for Charismatic Christians. When you made that comment above, did you realise that "the media" in this case was a publication that is generally supportive of Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians? Doesn't this make their news story more likely to be true? Let me ask you this Did you ever think that the Potter's House might be responsible for this mess? They are not perfect either

Let me ask - how did you go in school? Did you find English hard? What about History? Boring? You make lots of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors in your sentences. You are unable to read sources properly. When it comes to websites, great! You can publish people's personal details like the best of them. When it comes to reading and writing and research, you really need to work hard.

And I'm still waiting for your personal details of home address, phone number and email address. Just paste it here.

One Salient Oversight 09:59, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Interesting isn't it - I know this is true and know the direct people involved. what is your thoughts on this?

You're saying to me that you know something is true and you expect me to trust you after everything you've done? So what if some German guy thinks PH rocks.

"...some German guy...?" - surely you meant to say, "Yes, I confess, that's hard to argue with." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.164.90 (talk) 11:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

Hi, hope you'll excuse my forwardness, but I'd like to point you both in the direction of the policies of Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility. I would have thought that Christians, of all people, would be leading the way in this. Consider Ephesians 4:31-32:

"Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Regarding the Potter's House article, we need to provide only verifiable information. That is, for the purposes of Wikipedia, we can neither investigate and decide the truth of various claims ourselves, nor simply draw from our own experiences. We have to cite sources for controversial points. — Matt Crypto 12:17, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Matt, I thought you banned this guy? One Salient Oversight 21:00, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but I'm afraid I made a mistake and only blocked the "User" account, rather than the associated IP address as well. User:Ta bu shi da yu has banned the IP address. I'm sad that this guy spooked you, and hope you're doing OK. — Matt Crypto 23:53, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I went to all the user and article pages that link. He might be passionate and assertive but hardly worth a permanent ban. He does try to resolve things. He has made a large mistake but what if his english needs attention he may not be agressive but a passive. What culture / nationality is he, I have much trouble here in communication and wrong assumptions. This may provide a way of understanding his tone. It looks like administrator favor too. I have seen two christians like this before. They rely on their convictions that they are in gods will and god is right so they think they are right no compromise. I think the weaker will be the stronger in god. please be reasonable. (Bapto Inuag Canada) 8 Mar 2005