Talk:Olsztyn
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[edit] Earlier discussion
When someone writes a history of Olsztyn, I hope that person includes an explanation of why Allenstein was renamed Olsztyn after WWII, when the Germans were expelled. As I recall from having visited Olsztyn – which by the way is a very attractive old Prussian-style town with gabled houses around the square -- it was named for a Polish person of that name who had some involvement historically with the area. The German name, Allenstein, was a reference to the Alle River.
User:sca 24 Sept. 04
Olsztyn was never renamed. It always had two names Polish and German. Don't forget that Polish colonisation started after the christianisation of the area by the cistercians not by Teutonic Knights. Between 1454 and 1772 Olsztyn was an integral part of Poland, so insinuating that the city got a new name in 1945 is just your usual mandacious historical nationalism. Space Cadet 20:50, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The renamed cities in Warminsko Mazurskie Voivodship are Ketrzyn and Mragowo, but not Olsztyn, check your sources, you professional editor, you. Space Cadet 20:53, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
If it was always called Olzstyn in Polish, I stand corrected. I was perhaps confusing it with Ketrzyn, formerly Rastenburg. (Is this a transliteration into Polish of Allenstein, as Frombork is a transliteration of Frauenburg?)
However, before 1945 the town was known to non-Poles as Allenstein, as a glance at any contemporary travel guide will attest. Witness also the League of Nations plebiscite in southern East Prussia, which as shorthand was referred to as "the Allenstein district" (Cf. Churchill's memoirs). The plebiscite there in 1920 produced 97.8 percent (362,209 votes) for Germany and 2.2 percent (7,980 votes) for Poland. These are facts, widely reported at the time and cited in countless historical accounts since then.
By the way, it would be interesting to know what happened to the Masurians who used to live there, and who contributed heavily to the pro-German vote in 1920. The Masurians spoke a Polish dialect but were predeominately Protestant (Evangelical, or Lutheran) and culturally attuned to Germany. I believe I read somewhere that at least some of them were dispersed to other parts of Poland by the Communist government as punishment for their "disloyalty" in 1920.
User:sca
It is important to realise that there were different reasons for the differences in names in German and Polish. In some cases it is a Polish version of the German word; Allenstein/Olsztyn, Braunswalde/Brąswald etc. Others are based on Old Prussian names Wengaithen/Węgajty (in Prussian 'Oak Forest')and others are direct translations: Gutt Stadt/ Dobre Miasto. However, the Nazis also changed the 'German' names of some places because they felt the names were too Polish; the village of Pupki (Polish name) was known in German as Pupkeim but changed by Nazis to Tollnicken. Masurians I believe a number of Masurians were considered "German" because of their Protestantism. While some were deported to Germany (I believe) there were many who moved en masse to Germany in the 1970's under the West German government's open door policy to 'ethnic' Germans from Eastern Europe. (I'll try to find references) Wikipedia entry on Mazury: Soon after 1956, some Masurians were given the opportunity to join their families in West Germany. The majority (over 100 thousand) gradually left, mostly because the standard of living was higher in West Germany, and because the communist government persecuted their separate culture and identity. Approximately 5,000 Masurians still live in the area. Most of the originally Protestant churches in Masuria are now used by the Polish Roman Catholic Church. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.13.39.98 (talk)
- Yes, Olsztyn is sort of transliteration of Allenstein. German -stein suffix is often transliterated into Polish as -sztyn. MarcoosPL
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- Please note however, that at the moment of the plebiscite the areas that took part in it had no direct border with Poland since the bolsheviks were on their march towards Warsaw and all signs showed that Warsaw will fall soon. And the LoN declined to postpone the plebiscite until after the war. So, all in all the voters were not chosing between Poland and Germany but between Germany and Bolshevist Russia. In such circumstances I'd vote fore Germany too... But this is but a sidenote. And the League of Nations referred to the city as Allenstein/Olsztyn, not as Allenstein (check the stamp for instance). [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 02:13, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Official legal records of Allenstein, Prussia inhabitants
The church records of Allenstein inhabitants: Taufen, Heiraten, Tote (birth, marriage, death) of Allenstein and surrounding county are available from around 1650 till 1900. Here is the list of current Polish names of the towns: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localityhitlist&columns=*%2C0%2C0&PLACE=olsztyn&PARTOF=&prePLACE=olsztyn&prePARTOF=
When you click on 'church records' and continue clicking you will get to the original German town names and the original Kirchenbuch (church book) records identifying: Taufen, Heiraten, Tote (birth, marriage, death) records. These books were started to be filmed by the LDS after 1920 Versailles Treaty, when areas of Prussia and Germany were given to Poland as Polish Corridor, to Czechoslowakia etc.
- Toten, Schrotten, Rumpelstilzien - heute Deutschland, morgen die ganze Welt.--Emax 20:03, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
Emax reveals himself as another hysterical Polish nationalist. Too bad they can't confine themselves to the Polish Wikipedia. (And too bad they can't spell in English.)
The list of historical dates is obviously written by a Polish nationalist, who would like everyone to believe that Olsztyn, known before 1945 as Allenstein, always was Polish.
Gee, I wonder why Allenstein and most of southern East Prussia voted 97% for Germany in the plebescite of 1920?
Sca 13:11, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- I find it quite funny that for Sca speaking German language is equal to being a hysterical Polish nationalist... I wonder how many hysterical Polish nationalists live in Germany nowadays. 100 millions? Or less?
- And if you wonder why, then take a look at the Polish-Bolshevik frontlines at the moment the plebiscite was taken. Almost all of Poland was overrun by the Reds and it seemed obvious that Poland will fall. That's why Germany declined to postpone the plebiscite and that is why one had to be a real moron not to see that voting for Poland was in fact voting for the Reds. At least that's how it seemed to the contemporary people. But why do I waste my time... Halibutt 13:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Dzien dobry, Halibutt! You certainly are dogging my steps.
What on Earth do you mean by "for Sca speaking [the] German language is equal to being a 'hysterical Polish nationalist'"? -- clear as mud, my friend.
I suppose you're going to claim that pre-1945 Allenstein was inhabited mainly by Poles?
Do widzenia!
Sca 17:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Nationalism & stereotypes
What Emax said was a rather nonsenical German phrase followed by the old Nazi slogan, "Today Germany, tomorrow the entire world" – which I take to be his sarcastic insinuation that the Germans still have aggression in their hearts.
To me it's roughly analogous to the disparaging German stereotype about the Poles, "polnische Wirtschaft." In both cases, one side is perpetuating an uncomplimentary stereotype about the other. Unfortunately.
What I have yet to understand is why so many (?) Poles still seem to believe that the Germans of today are a bunch of revanchists. It's just totally unrelated to reality. Poland, from my observation, seems to be the only country among those victimized by Nazi Germany that still takes this attitude. The Russians certainly don't (now that the commie propaganda machine has been shut down).
Anyhow, take a look at Emax's user page.
Sca 18:52, 17 October 2005 (UTC) " The Russians certainly don't" Since they were allies of Nazi Germany till 1941 thats hardly an argument. --Molobo 00:28, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
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- So, you repeat some stereoptype, yet I do not plan to offend you by calling you a nationalist. Think about it. Also, take a minute to imagine that the random set of German words might've been just that, a random set of words, without much ideology behind them or without any allegations. Think for a minute about the fact that Emax knew (he's inactive now) English well enough to state his ideas clearly, without having to resort to using constructions understood only by certain Sca. Over and out. Halibutt 06:23, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Me, a nationalist? Nie rozumiem.
I don't approve of the Germans disparaging "polnische Wirtschaft" any more than I approve of Poles calling today's Germans "Nazis."
Nor do I approve of Americans who wave the flag and tell the world how proud they are to be Americans – no matter what the U.S. does.
As Samuel Johnson famously said: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Sca 18:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Google Local
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=k&ll=53.78,20.49&spn=0.058527,0.138531
[edit] Expulsion of Germans
Does anyone have more precise sources on the expulsion of Germans from Olsztyn following the WW2 that could be used in the article ? --Lysytalk 21:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes: this book has specific articles about Germans in the Olsztyn region. http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/cleansing.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.13.39.98 (talk) 19:07, August 20, 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Town
Some person from Torquay in United Kingdom is exagerrating the size of Olsztyn by correcting that this is a city. Sorry, I live in Olsztyn, but it's definitely a town in English standards. What's more its population is shrinking due to emigration to Western countries of the EU. I'll put that back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.81.21 (talk) 20:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- Although I welcome reasonable arguments for dispute why you should call Olsztyn a city and not a town, I can't understand why someone would call the Old Town district — the Old City. This correcting the reality is boring. 83.9.81.21 (talk) 20:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yet again they are taking up edit war without discussing it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.88.209 (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- I also live in Olsztyn. Olsztyn may be small by UK city standards (smaller than Shrewsbury, which is a town) BUT it has a cathedral, hence it would be considered a city under English law.(83.13.39.98 (talk) 20:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC))
- But it is not in England. Secondly it is not "law". It is a convention that you cannot be a city if you don't have a cathedral. Slightly different. Wells, Somerset is not really a city, even though it has a cathedral. Its a very small place. Regards, David Lauder (talk) 20:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Accepted, it isn't really a law. However, if we are making the comparison between size (let's not be too Freudian here:-)) then, as you say, Olsztyn isn't in Britain so the size is not necessarily a relevant factor. It would perhaps be more useful to consider Olsztyn from the Polish, or even German, criteria of administrative role and facilities (both civil and church). Suffice to say that many of the residents here who speak excellent English refer to Olsztyn as "a city". Does anyone know what the Pre-war German classification of Allenstein was?(83.13.39.98 (talk) 09:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC))
- "Allenstein, town, East Prussia, Germany; sawmills, beer: pop. 38,103." Oldham's New Atlas of the World, London, 1935, Gazetteer Index, p.232. Regards, David Lauder (talk) 09:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Accepted, it isn't really a law. However, if we are making the comparison between size (let's not be too Freudian here:-)) then, as you say, Olsztyn isn't in Britain so the size is not necessarily a relevant factor. It would perhaps be more useful to consider Olsztyn from the Polish, or even German, criteria of administrative role and facilities (both civil and church). Suffice to say that many of the residents here who speak excellent English refer to Olsztyn as "a city". Does anyone know what the Pre-war German classification of Allenstein was?(83.13.39.98 (talk) 09:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC))
- But it is not in England. Secondly it is not "law". It is a convention that you cannot be a city if you don't have a cathedral. Slightly different. Wells, Somerset is not really a city, even though it has a cathedral. Its a very small place. Regards, David Lauder (talk) 20:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Poland and Germany do not differentiate between city and town, using the same words for both concepts (miasto and Stadt, respectively). Encyclopedia Columbia refers to Olsztyn as a city.[1] Since it has a population in excess of 100,000, it definitely seems to be more "city" than "town". Olessi (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
