Talk:Olivier Messiaen

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Featured article star Olivier Messiaen is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
February 1, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted

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[edit] Interim thoughts...

Two thoughts: firstly, can we have a citation for 'The "end of time" of the title ... also refers to the way in which Messiaen, through rhythm and harmony, used time in a way completely different from the music of his contemporaries'? Not that I doubt it, but without a citation it look perilously like OR. Secondly, we don't seem to have any audio clips. Presumably all his music is still copyrighted, but I think we have ample justification for some short fair use clips. I would do them myself, but I don't know which bits would be best. Mark1 13:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark. I will try and dig out my reference to the bit you mention and add it. Please go ahead with the audio clips if you can! Unfortunately I do not have the technology. Any sound clips could probably be woven nicely into the article. I have some ideas for what would be appropriate - obviously details will depend on which recordings are available to you!
In case you were actually offering to do some clips (!), here are my suggestions. I wouldn't include more than one item from each of these five categories: (a) something to illustrate pre-Tristan modes and additive rhythms, such as the opening of Danse de fureur from the Quatuor, but anything from the Quatour or Préludes would probably be equally good, (b) an example of his idiomatic organ style, either the opening of the final toccata section of Dieu parmi nous from La Nativité, or the opening of Transports de joie from L'Ascension, (c) something from Turangalîla, possibly his most popular work, say the opening of Joie du sang des etoiles, (d) birdsong from his full maturity: I would choose the beginning or the end of L'oiseau-lyre et la ville-fiancée from Éclairs sur l'au delà, or a clip from one of the piano solo movements from Des canyons aux étoiles…, or an excerpt from any birdsong episode from Catalogue d'oiseaux - the most obvious choice for the latter would be, I suppose, the opening of Le loriot, (e) something serial or avant garde from the fifties or sixties - like a bit of Modes de valeurs et d'intensités, or something from Livre d'orgue or Méditations. Finally, at least one clip should probably feature piano, since that was his main medium. There, I don't ask much :-) --RobertG ♬ talk 16:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've added clips from a) the Quatour, c) and d) Le loriot at what seemed to me plausible points. You might want to reformat or redistribute them, though. Mark1 17:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! - although I don't have the technology to listen to them! I think where you've placed them is ideal. I've added the citation you requested. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added b), the opening of Transports de joie, formatted it in a manner similar to what Mark did. I have Latry's and Messiaen's recordings of Livre d'orgue and Latry's Méditations, so if you can give me an exact indication of what part of the piece you want for e) (as I am no expert and I won't be able to determine which part illustrates serialism/avant-garde style best), I'll do a sample of that as well. Jashiin 14:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh and speaking of photographs, I have this one movie about Messiaen which has a lot of interviews. I could make some screenshots, but I'm not sure whether they would be fair use - they are according to the Wiki policy, but in the beginning of the movie there's a notice that no part of the production can be used anywhere without permission, so I'm in doubt. Jashiin 14:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair use is not dependent on permission, so that notice has no effect AFAIK. However, we already have one fair use picture of him, so I'd find it hard to justify adding another one. Markyour words 17:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking of pictures of him with his students, Yvonne Loriod playing, shots from the performance of Saint-François d'Assise, etc. Anyway, RobertG responded on my talk page and he reckons it'd be copyright infringement to add screenshots from documentaries. Jashiin 17:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "L'âme en bourgeon" translation

An anon contributor has changed the translation of L'âme en bourgeon from "the burgeoning soul" to "the flowering soul", but isn't en bourgeon more embryonic than "flowering"? Isn't the idea that the soul hasn't flowered yet rather the point? I propose putting it back to "the burgeoning soul" or, possibly, "the budding soul". What do others think? Any bilingual Wikipedians paying attention?! --RobertG ♬ talk 14:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ideally, I'd go with "burgeoning", "budding" or even "emerging". "Flowering" doesn't have the same sense of nascence, i.e. "flowering" is a further stage of development. However, "The Flowering Soul" is the more common translation of this book. Pinkville 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of compositions

Why has the list of compositions been moved? The article is a featured article, and I do not understand why it has been unilaterally chopped up. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought so too - and my attempt to make a start on restoring some of the compositions to make a "landmark" list was swiftly expunged. OK I'm not a rigorous "encyclopedic" writer but I was hoping rather for it to be seen as a start and develop to a consensus list ! (The editor who chopped out the list did seem to ask for something to take it's place in his comment.) Johnrcrellin 14:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I agree somewhat. I for one don't like huge lists in featured articles, however I do think there should be a list of particularly important compositions, and I appreciate Johnrcrellin's attempt to make one, and don't really understand why the whole thing was removed without attempting to simply change the adjective used. There are going to be some works by a composer which have a greater impact on the world than others, and I think those should be acknowledged. Mak (talk) 17:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry everyone, but after much thought about what to do I have respectfully, but boldly, put the compositions back. Here are my reasons.
  1. It's a featured article. While I recognise that WP:FA? criteria 2b and 5 are in conflict, I think an almost-complete list is better than no list, and the article gained featured status with the list in place
  2. The article claimed that the list linked to was a "full list", which is not quite true
  3. A small proportion of Messiaen's compositions are insignificant in context, and as the text of the article makes clear nearly all his compositions include some innovation. I don't think a replacement selective list can be formulated without the contributor making some personal value judgements, unless s/he does a ton of research (in journals I don't have access to and certainly don't have time for). This is the main reason, I suspect, that the only editor to attempt a replacement had his effort summarily removed
  4. Information was lost in the move, mainly its references.
  5. An outline of "most significant" works would duplicate information that is in the article already, making an onerous requirement to restructure the whole article
  6. Finally I think the article simply underwent an alarming change of perspective and quality when the reader got to "Works"
If anyone can write a referenced, npov, section outlining the "most significant" works then I have absolutely no objection, but please write the section first and replace the list with it, rather than just removing the list and then saying "someone needs to write something here". --RobertG ♬ talk 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

On a sidenote, I'd like to ask on what basis compositions are put in the "unpublished" list. There is at least one old recording of "Fêtes des belles eaux", would that be possible if the work was indeed unpublished? Also, the piece for ondes Martenot and string quartet appears on the "Inédits" CD, which would indicate it was unpublished. (or maybe calling the CD "Inédits" instead of "seldom heard pieces" was just a marketing ploy?) 213.118.62.210 02:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak to the specifics works here (does the whole list, or most, derive from one source?), however published pieces generally refers to the music -- ie the score and/or parts -- being "in print", and thus widely available for performance & study, rather than the piece being recorded, even if the recording is commercially available. There's plenty of "unpublished" music out there that you can dig up a recording of, not to mention bootleg tapes & such of concert recordings of pieces that never saw a second performance, never mind print distribution...Of course in the age of Sibelius these distinctions are starting to become less meaningful...
However, I notice that the "Quadruple concerto" mentioned at the end of the bio section isn't on either list. What's up w/ that? —Turangalila talk 10:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
According to the sleevenotes of the DG/Chung CD of the "Concert à Quatre", it was published by Alphonse Leduc, Paris. Since its orchestration was finished by Yvonne Loriod and George Benjamin, I imagine this publishing would have happened after Messiaen's death. The sleevenotes to the recording of the "Fetes de Belles Eaux" that I have does not mention a publisher, but then it doesn't mention a publisher for the other works on the disc either. Btw, I find it strange to have seperate lists for compositions published/unpublished during his lifetemine, but then not distinguishing between lost, unpublished and posthumously published. And also, Robert Sherlaw Johnson's book lists some more unpublished (esp. early) works; is there a reason why not all are listed here? 213.118.60.150 20:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Probably not everyone has the source handy. Either way, if you do have it then please be bold and help complete the list; preferably supplying page cites, enclosed in "<ref>" and "</ref>" tags. —Turangalila talk 01:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The two lists were intended to distinguish compositions "published with Messiaen's compliance" and those "not…" The former are found in most published lists of his compositions. Messiaen made no great attempt, it appears, to promote the latter. The Quadruple Concerto and Éclairs… were, of course, published posthumously; I think it is generally accepted, however, that Messiaen intended them for publication. It would be misleading, I think, to put La dame de Shallott, Fêtes des belles eaux or Timbres-durées on the same level. I changed the lists' titles accordingly. I hope it is clearer now. --RobertG II ♬ talk 15:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Shouldn't it be [mɛsjɛ̃] instead of [mɛsjɔ̃]? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apus (talk • contribs) August 7 2006.

I do believe this is an important question; but can someone please explain the difference for those of use who are inexpert in IPA, and who are not native French speakers? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
According to IPA_chart_for_English, disregarding the nasalisation, and in general American English terms, the first vowel is the one in 'bed', and the second is the one in 'caught'. I can't say how he's pronounced in French, but I've always heard the second version from English speakers. HenryFlower 10:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
hmm... I've always heard the first version (i.e. [mɛsjɛ̃]), from both English and French speakers... I think there's a little tendency in US English (but probably not in UK or Canadian English) to change French [ɛ̃] to [ɔ̃]. I think the page should probably have [mɛsjɛ̃] --128.148.123.85 19:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, there, I personally say (and have always heard in France) [mɛsjɑ̃]. 84.102.67.203 09:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The last anonymous contributor here has it right, I believe. I have heard only [mɛsjɑ̃] from French-speaking musicians. I have not heard a speaker of Canadian French utter the word. Of course there is a very common leaning towards [mɛsjɛ̃] among English speakers, because we know that [ɛ̃] is frequently a pronunciation of "en", as in "bien" and many other words. (I used to say it that way myself, I confess.) Certainly [mɛsjɔ̃] is wrong: [ɔ̃] is not an accepted pronunciation of "en". I am therefore now putting [mɛsjɑ̃] in the article. In the end, one wonders how much any of this can help readers, since most of them (and most of "us", too) are not adept at IPA. – Noetica 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If someone could make a pronunciation file, it'd help quite a bit, I'm sure. A-giau 19:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of students

I disagree that the list of students is irrelevant to the article, and have tagged each article with {{mergeto}} and {{mergefrom}}, respectively. Other articles about significant musicians or others in the music industry have link or lists of those whose careers they've influenced. Care to discuss your reasoning with me? Thanks! - CobaltBlueTony 18:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't argue that the list of pupils is entirely irrelevant. If I thought that I'd have boldly deleted them from Wikipedia altogether! I merely think that a long list of pupils is inappropriate for the lead paragraph, and that the direction it was potentially going in was the addition to the article of anyone who studied with Messiaen, however briefly or notably. I feel that his students Boulez (who was perhaps his most prominent champion, and who both commissioned works and arranged first performances), Loriod (obviously) and Benjamin (who has been closely associated with Messiaen's music, and who even helped complete one of his works) are definitely worth mentioning in the lead. However I even have my doubts about whether Stockhausen and Xenakis belong in the lead. I think Stockhausen and Xenakis should certainly be mentioned in the body of the article because they serve as examples of how Messiaen encouraged his students to find their own voices rather than imposing his own ideas. But what does the bare fact of his teaching of William Bolcom, Tristan Murail, Theodorakis (or Alexander Goehr or Karel Goeyvaerts for that matter) add to what we know about Messiaen? If it adds something, then we should be able to say what it is in each case. Otherwise we will end up with an indiscriminate list (edit summary: "if you can add Betsy Jolas then I can add Pia Sebastiani and Raffi Ourgandjian") - until we reach entirely non-notable Messiaen pupils. I think the place for such a list is in a separate list article (which is why I started one), not in an encyclopedia article about their teacher. --RobertG ♬ talk 12:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
In the lead paragraph, I'd only mention two or three of the notable students, but a list near the end of the article, perhaps just before references (maybe even a subset of a "See Also" section) of ONLY notable students is, I think, entirely appropriate. - CobaltBlueTony 15:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Am I looking for difficulties where I needn't? I don't think it's a big issue. It's just that Messiaen had mentor relationships of varying "intensity" with so many notable musicians, not all of them formal "students", that I foresee difficulties keeping the list trimmed! I really think an indiscriminate list would be too much. If the list is not to be indiscriminate then someone has to decide which musicians are notable enough to be included here, and how much tuition qualifies, and this must be WP:OR. This doesn't matter so much if the list is kept separately from the article, which is featured. Does anyone else have a view? --RobertG ♬ talk 16:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I support a merge, especially because the list is not very long (and I doubt it will ever be extremely long) and can therefore easily be integrated into the main article; of the eight names on it, five are already mentioned in the first paragraph of this article. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to create a new section in the Messiaen article about his work as a teacher and explain what influence his harmony and composition classes had. That is a more useful way to present information than a list. Skarioffszky 11:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

(reset margin) I would definitely support Skarioffszky's solution: fold the names into the article text, esp. as most are already there. Something should be decided soon, though: the merge notice is an eyesore. At the least the merge template should be moved in the source text above the picture--I think that would make it display more normally. I can't do it because my old browser cuts off long pages in the edit box so I would destroy the article.—Turangalila talk 10:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The article on spectralism mentions Messiaen as a pre-spectralist because of the resonant chords using the harmonic series as a basis for harmony, and I suggest mentioning his teaching Tristan Murail in this context.213.118.63.119 23:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
"…I doubt [the list] will ever be extremely long" (Skarioffszky) and "…most are already there" (Turangalila): I have recently, after very little research, extended the list to 61 names. --Ferstel 11:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

The merge of the students into the Olivier Messiaen article seems like a good idea. Badagnani 08:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's not such a good idea (see discussion immediately above). I'd like to be convinced: why do you think it's a good idea? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm voting for merging the list, not into the text, but as section in the article. I'll stop short of trying to convince anyone. It clearly doesn't belong in the lead, but it isn't a "long list" either. --CKL

[edit] Great article!

Hi, I just wanted to say this is a fantastic article! I’ve learned a great deal from it. Many thanks to all of you. S.dedalus 06:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I also wanted to add my congrats to all involved on another great composer Featured Article! We need more of these. I'm just starting to delve into his works and have loved everything I've heard so far. He was brilliant and had a fascinating life. Good work everybody, and thanks so much. Groove1279 12:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surname

What is the etymology/origin of his surname? Badagnani (talk) 02:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Selected discography"

Discographies on Wikipedia cannot be complete, and if they are not complete then they are necessarily selective: and the selection criteria usually depend on original research. Selected by whom? Even if it's just organ recordings, who says Thiry's are more notable than, say, Bates's or Weir's or Messiaen's own? I respectfully submit that Wikipedia composer articles are not the place for discographies, selected or otherwise. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's Messiaen himself who wrote about Louis Thiry : «Louis Thiry is an extraordinary organist. An accomplished virtuose, an-allround musician, with unequalled memory and skill : he may be classed among the heroes of music (he has given several fine performances of my most difficult organ works -in particular my “Messe de la Pentecôte”). All those who have heard and all those who will hear Louis Thiry can but admire him.»Orlov Herne (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Percussionists' repertoire" link

I have received representation asking that the link at Bell Percussion Ltd listing "The percussion repertoire of Olivier Messiaen" be reinstated, as it is "not a commercial link" but a "wholly separate part" of the website (notwithstanding the links and adverts). Its being part of a commercial website was only one of several criteria I considered when removing it. I was not the first to remove it, and I still feel that it does not meet the WP:EL criteria, but others may differ. Only six Messiaen works are listed. In any case, I feel it definitely should not be the top external link! Does anyone else have a view? --RobertG ♬ talk 16:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Messiaen Repertiore link

As a former London conservatoire percussion student and teacher I have to say that I cannot see why the “Percussionist’s repertoire” link should not be included. I find this area of the Bell Percussion Ltd website an invaluable resource and to be able to obtain freely available but sometimes awkward to find information in a single website section, extremely helpful. Not only is this section accurate (unlike some other percussion requirement lists!) but it delves deeper into the requirements such as the octave range requirements of some of the mallet instruments and where necessary gong and tubular bell pitches as well. Clearly this has been well researched and collated by percussionists who themselves have played the pieces listed. In this Messiaen ‘year’ I personally and indeed countless others will require this resource when organising the plethora of Messiaen percussion sections that will be fixed. The preceding length of time that each orchestra will receive the publishers score and parts varies based on the organisation. However to have the percussion requirement information potentially months before the first rehearsal is incredibly useful and more and more vital as the complexity of the modern percussion repertoire increases.

I understand your point that the website has a commercial element but the education and reference sections take equal billing. As a dabbler in web site design this organisation will be unlikely to have control over the bars that run down the right hand side of the site due the site construction restrictions. Personally I’m not interested in the commercial bars on the right. If I want to buy something then I’ll click the shop button – a completely different area. This is a relatively small and unique industry and those who do enter the ‘Perc World’ section or the ‘Repertoire’ section of this site do so for a reason – education and knowledge. The information and the whole aim of the inclusion in my view, does meet the spirit and criteria of WP. Interestingly I have not found this specialist information (of which there are twelve peices, not six as stated) anywhere on any of the links that are included in this Messiaen entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boniver (talk • contribs) 19:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)