Talk:Olive oil/Archive 1

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this should be a appropearate web site i refus eto have a bad thing on my computer poop head had this olive oil concept in Minoan culture of Crete, where it is thought to have roughly equated wealth.

Well. A central product, sure. And we can't read Linear A, so let's not get into 'concepts' of the Minoans. --MichaelTinkler

Oups! Sorry Michael! Just related what the people and exhibitions on the Knossos told me. Geez! --Anders Törlind

I've noticed that canned sardines are often packed with olive oil. Should it be noted in the article that olive oil is useful as a preservative? --LostLeviathan 01:41, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Canning is a preservative. Nach0king 23:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Neat trick?

How do you combine Extra Virgin with no more than 1% acidity with Virgin with no more than 2% acidity, and end up with Semi Fine with up to 3.3% acidity? Gene Nygaard 21:13, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Although I blew away some of the older verbiage--the words weren't in some very official-looking stuff--does the answer to your question come through? The previous error grew out of the confusion between 'virgin' as a manufacturing process versus 'virgin' on a consumer label, and the lack of the word 'refined'. Combining virgin oil with "olive oil refined from virgin oil" (in other words, not made from olive-pomace oil) gets you something you can sell with a grand label. The refined oil might have 0.1% acidity, which is how the arithmetic works out.

At least, that's my current understanding based on reading things written by marketing people, lawyer people, hybrid marketing/lawyer people, and authors of cookbooks. I may be confused.

I still don't think I've really captured some of these distinction in the main page, and I haven't put my citations in yet (which are mostly IOOC, the body that defines these things). Perhaps after I've been away from it for a few days, I'll revisit the language. Help is always appropriate.

DanielVonEhren 22:55, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Lots still needs to be done

I re-arranged things (I still don't think the overall flow is right, but at least similar things are a little more grouped together, hanging out with their friends).

I (or whoever) still need to write:

  • A paragraph on how olive oil is manufactured;
  • A section on olive oil in history (it's more than the Minoans);
  • A table on the grading and classification (I haven't put it in yet because I have to learn more about how make a table) (And Gene is right about the arithmetic absurdities);
  • A table on the market for olive oil--where it comes from (Spain, as it turns out, even when it says Product of Italy), and what countries consume it (this information is available on the IOOC website, but I haven't gotten around to extracting it yet).

And I bet there's more. Thoughts?

DanielVonEhren 05:11, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)


A proposed outline

I've tried to organize the knowledge about olive oil in way that's appropriate for an encyclopedia. Here's an outline I've come up with; feel free to beat up on it.

My organizing principle here is that if someone visits the olive oil Wiki, they most likely want to know what 'extra-virgin' means, then whether it's healthy, and so on. In other words, I've organized it around what visitors will want to read.

At the top, start with a link to the Wiki Cookbook for olive oil recipes.

  1. Commercial market for olive oil
    1. Consumer classification. Similar to the current article, only better
    2. How olive oil is made. A narrative of the common way to manufacture olive oil
    3. The olive oil market.
      1. Marketing bodies. What organizations exist, and are they official, quasi-governmental, or self-appointed
      2. World-wide production. Who makes it
      3. World-wide consumption. Who eats it
  2. Olive oil and health. Current research and thought on whether olive oil is good for you (or at least less bad than all of those other oils).
  3. Olive oil in history
    1. Biological origins and spread of the olive tree. Probably a brief summary, and a pointer over to the olive tree article (which, by the way, needs work)
    2. Cultural significance of olive oil. It's more than just food
      1. Minoans. The Room of the Olive Press at Knossos, and so on
      2. Greeks. Athena, the Olympics, the City Olive, and so on
      3. Bible. The symbolism and imagery of olive oil in the Old and New Testaments
      4. Romans. The Imperial Olive
      5. Other cultures. Being a whitebread middle-middle-middle American male :-), I have no idea, but there are surely others. For example, do olives figure prominently in the Koran?

Thoughts?

DanielVonEhren 22:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What about the saturated fat content in olive oil - I have found no reference to it and yet on my bottle it clearly states saturates 13g per 100 ml which is over the recommendation of no more than 5g per 100g.? Ian Lambert

Feedback I have no big quarrel with the overall structure but the entry is too big and tries to accomplish too much. Maybe it should be reduced by around 50% by focusing on the main facts. Olive oil probably deserves separate entries on nutrition, history and so on, which would be good homes for surplus material.

Perhaps the Italian references are given too much preference. Other big producers such as Spain, Greece and Turkey have similar situations and could be given equal attention whereas smaller producers such as New Zealand, China and the USA could be mentioned.

Some readers may be a bit confused by the production and consumption figures. This could be simplified by putting the different countries on a comparable basis. Italy, as you point out, imports large quantities of olives and olive oil from other countries for production, bottling and re-exporting to third countries. How are global production and global exports to be measured in such cases? I think the important thing is to give the reader an idea of relative size without getting involved in a "numbers war".

Hope this helps: Colin Carter

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.35.140.143 (talk) 17:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Olive oil in France

Hello,

In the article, you say that there is no olive oil production in France, but we have, sorry ! I check the figures for production and let you know.

There is even an "AOC" (high quality standart label) for French olive oil.

--Penven 14:04, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Bonjour Penven
There are a few answers to your question. I think that I'm the one put 'nil' in, so let's see if we can make this better. The numbers in the table are just copied from the source--the IOOC has slightly different numbers. If you have a different source, you should "Be bold!" and adjust the table--with a footnote, of course. :-)
A second answer is that at least in my dialect of English, 'nil' isn't the same as 'none'. If we put in "less than 1%" is might capture it better. I live in California, not far from groves of olive trees, but the US is also listed as 'nil'. I was trying to say that we don't produce a lot, but we consume a lot.
The table tries to present 'big facts' without presenting too much detail. The line between those two goals could be drawn at a different place.
By the way, whether or not we make changes to the production table, if you could do the research on the meaning of 'AOC' classification, and how it relates to the IOOC standards, that would be a highly useful addition. :-)
DanielVonEhren 13:39, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

"Lucca Crown"?

Regarding this "second name" which is quite prominent in the first paragraph: 1) Is there *any* use of this name outside the poem/recipe mentioned? All google hits refer to that directly or indirectly. 2) Lucca is a specific type of olive (grown in Lucca, Italy), so it appears that "Lucca crown" means "finest oil made from Lucca olives" (or perhaps a typo for "Lucca grown", oil grown in Lucca?) in which case it can not be said that "lucca crown" is a synonym for "olive oil" any more than "bordeaux" is a synonym for "wine".

I propose that the reference to "lucca crown" be struck from the article, or moved to a position of less prominence. --Sysin 3 July 2005 21:12 (UTC)

Hey! Thanks for your message on my talk page. I'm not surprised that a Google search only finds references to "Lucca crown" which link back to the poem. Since the term was in use during the 19th century, it would likely not be properly indexed on the internet. "Lucca crown" is unlikely a typo for "Lucca grown" because the next line in Sydney Smith's poem contains the word "town", which rhymes with "crown" and not "grown". However, I will need to do more research on the etymology of that term before I can know definitively that it is used outside of the poem, and with significantly more prevalence. I've asked another Wikipedian who appears to be more familiar with gastronomy to respond here (give it maybe 2 or 3 days.) In the meantime, please feel free to move the reference to another place you feel is more appropriate. We can always change back to this version at a later time. --HappyCamper 3 July 2005 21:59 (UTC)
I agree, "grown" is an unlikely typo. Even if "Lucca crown" was a common term in the 19th century, did it refer to olive oil in general, or did it specifically refer to olive oil from Lucca?

Found elsewhere:

Re: crown as a verb - it just slapped me in the face when I reread the poem -
"Four times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown,
And twice with vinegar procured from town;"
in other words pour four spoons of olive oil and two spoons of vinegar over the other ingredients, the classic oil/vinegar proportion. "Crown" it with Lucca olive oil and vinegar. ... Mothperson 13:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

So I think that answers it. Noel (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Olive Oil Soap

Olive oil soap is tremendous stuff, it's dryer than other soaps, it cleans you without all the lather and supposedly it's better for your skin. I enjoy the sensation of it, once you go olive oil soap you don't go back. It can usually be found in middle eastern grocery stores.

  • In Greece it sells for about 1€/kg; the same bars sell for $4/brick (about 200g I guess) in NYC "health food" stores. I know what I'm filling my suitcases with in my next trip.

Olive oil - used in cooking

When olive oil is used for deep frying, potato chips for example, how often can the olive oil be reused, how long can it be stored in a deep fryer, how can you tell if it needs replacing? --58.178.128.184 02:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

You shouldn't use straight olive oil for high heat frying. You can blend it up to about 50% with a more heat tollerant oil like soy, corn, peanut, or sunflower.

Olive oil can stand up to 210C. Frying shouldn't get that hot. Source: oliveoilsource.com-olive chemistry-smoke point.

Olive oil bearly gets hydrogenated in even industrial settings, right? Anyway, it's too expensive to be used like that. If the first fact is true, it would be because of low amounts of PUFA's, right? Some sites say all vegetable oil can get partially hydrogenated but some say only PUFA's can. Which is right? Is there a difference between EVOO and refined olive oil on this subject? Should I change what I edited on cooking oil about olive oil?
I can answer my own question here: "http://www.coconutoil.com//oiling_america.htm." Go to "three double bonds" after command-f and you'll see that only polyunsaturated oils with threee double bonds get partially hydrogenated. Olive oil is very low in these.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.42.30 (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Sydney Smith???

Why is a link given to Sydney Smith's dressing? What make it more special, more worthy of a link than all of the hundreds of other salad dressing recipes containing olive oil? (or the thousands of recipes in general containing olive oil, for that matter...)

Its an remnant of the early history of the article, go a few edits back until you find references to "Lucca Crown". It's odd, but not very bothersome.Sysin 21:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The picture

What is the log-like thing in the bottom of the pictured container of olive oil?

I know what it looks like to me, but I have a Filthy Mind(tm). Perhaps a picture less suggestive of things scatalogical could be found?

I thought it looked like poop when I first opened the page.

See the high-res version at [1]. In front, I'm pretty sure it's a wedge of lemon or lime. Behind the wedge, I'm not so sure. At first I thought maybe it was a fish, but now I'm thinking it's something wrapped in a grape leaf...

Healthful?

Is healthful a real word? Shouldn't it be healthy? nick 17:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

To answer my own question almost instantly, it appears it is: [2]. I guess it must only be used in american english. nick 17:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Should the assertion that olive oil is more healthful even be made here? I mean, I know that monounsaturated fat is less easily damaged (eg, by heating, by oxidation) than is polyunsaturated fat, so it is less easily rendered unhealthful, so indirectly the statement is true. But, I have also read that "monounsaturated fatty acids (like saturated fats) promote insulin resistance" which would seem to indicate an unhealthful aspect, yes? Not that I think that olive oil is bad for you, I think just the opposite. Perhaps the potentially controversial assertion should simply be striken.JDHeinzmann (talk) 02:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Let's not forget the polyphenols and other antioxidants. Something tells me that those trace components of olive oil go against insulin resistance. Besides, all fat is not good in high amounts. Good point, JDHHeinzmann. Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Menorah

Are we sure that the hannukia has 7 branches? 8 nights of Channukah, plus the shammus really suggests 9 branches to me, and this fits my personal experience.

A hannukiah does have 9 branches. Bpsullivan 06:15, 18 April 2006 the menorah used on hanuka has 9 branches. 8 are to commemorate the 8 days that 1 days portion of oil burned. the 9th is the shamash, or helper candle, which is there so that we don't use the light of the hanuka menora for just plain 'seeing', since it's light is just for the mitzvah, commandment, of the hanuka lights. A hanukia has 9 branches and is now used. A menorah has 7 branches and was originally used.

the 7 branched menora is the menora which was in the bet ha'mikdash, the Temple in jerusalem. -avraham shir-el AKA arthur sherman, tekoa

Canola Oil comparison

In the article, it says how Olive Oil's high monounsaturated fat content is considered healthy. Canola oil has nearly as much monounsaturated fat, along with more polyunsaturated fat, and a higher smoke point. I think that alternatives to this "healthy" conception of oil should be mentioned. Corn oil is similar as well, and maybe both articles should be expanded more throughly along with this one of course. 71.250.60.232 14:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC) Olive oil has more polyphenols, more vitamins, doesn't become toxic when rancid and is the only oil agreed on by the two main parties: the polyunsat. haters and the saturated haters.

Herbs & Spices template

I don't see what the Herbs & spices template has to do with Olive Oil. I understand that you can put herbs and spices into olive oil, but that's a pretty weak link imho.--Nicko 03:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm taking it out. --Dodiad 07:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Density

100 g olive oil = 90 ml??? It`s absurd! It means a density of 1.11 g·cm^-3, heavier than water, and olive oil would sink into! Olive oil mean density is more or less 0.92 g·cm^-3, so 100 g of olive oil = approx. 108 ml 212.51.52.8 22:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Smoke point

From Smoke Point]:

The smoke point of an oil should be high when the oil is used for deep-fat frying or when it will be exposed alone on surfaces such as cookie sheets. [...]
Olive oil is particularly variable; higher quality cold-pressed grades have lower smoke points than cheaper solvent-extracted and refined grades. It is better not to use high-quality olive oil for deep frying—save it for your salads.

Botulism

From Botulism#Prevention:

Other origins of infection include garlic or herbs[4] stored covered in oil,[2] chile peppers, tomatoes [citation needed], improperly handled baked potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil [citation needed], and home-canned or fermented fish. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated.


Conflict of Interest External Link

I didn't review the conflict of interest rules before I posted a link to a series of photographs that comprehensively document the journey of an olive through an olive mill from beginning to end on the "external link" portion. Please consider it. I'm the olive oil expert at Zingerman's Deli and photographed my time at an olive harvest in Paso Robles, CA. http://drygoodsnotes.blogspot.com

Solomonj 06:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


EVOO redirect

For some reason "EVOO" was redirecting to the human health section of this article. It now directs to the article itself. Rockhopper10r 02:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Do we really need EVOO to redirect here at all? As far as I can tell it's a Rachael Ray-influenced fad that isn't likely to have meaning for much longer. No need to encourage this. Maybe I'm just hating on Ray, but it doesn't strike me as having all that much merit. Not planning to do anything about it; just a comment. James A. Stewart 04:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
A date-limited [http://books.google.com/books?num=100&q=evoo+olive+OR+oil+OR+virgin+OR+mediterranean+date%3A1990-2002&btnG=Search+Books&as_brr=0 Google book search shows that it was being used by 1999/2000, before Rachel Ray started on the Food Network. She has no doubt popularized it. Anyway, a redirect isn't so bad unless it is confusing or misdirecting people, which I don't see that this one would. --Macrakis 19:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Country of Origin/Consumption Table

The figures no longer add up to 100%

Tattoo Goo

Olive Oil is the main ingredient in Tattoo Goo. For those who don't now, it is the largest product sold exclusively to help aid in the healing of new tattoos. I don't know the reason for the olive oil in the goo, but it sure does make it smell nice!!

Vodkajcl 02:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

History / Middle East

I've edited the following from:

"Before 2,000 B.C. the Egyptians imported olive oil from Crete, Syria and Israel so it was obviously an important item of commerce and wealth."

to

"Before 2,000 B.C. the Egyptians imported olive oil from Crete, Syria and Palestine."

According to the wikipedia article on the history of ancient Israel, the Kingdom of Israel was not established till 930 BC, so it did not exist during 2000 BC. I deleted the "so it was obviously an important item of commerce and wealth." since a dictionary should not establish theoretical conclusion, but rather report facts. Perhaps is the wording changes it could work out.

Hmmm, Your changes do not appear. I just read the article today Feb 5, 2007 and several incorrect references to Israel still exist. I edited them to read Canaan or Philistine. Interesting to see if it will be changed back by some who can't distinguish between what they want to be true and what has been established in the bible, Torah and through science.

Alexneophile (talk) 11:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC) Well, someone's screwed with the page again. They state that the "first recorded oil extraction is known from the Hebrew Bible and took place during the Exodus from Egypt." This is ridiculous, as is mentioned earlier, due to the time frame of the Hebrew Tanakh being c. 2000BC and in the previous paragraph the mention of olive oil residue dating from 4000 BC. Damnit.

How is olive oil produced?

I find it amazing that this article does not mention the processes that are employed (either traditionally or industrially) to produce olive oil. If someone knows this, a section or a sentence would be welcome.

It may be extremely simple or obvious but it's not obvious to those of us that live in places where olives and olive oil are much less common. Thanks! —mako (talk•contribs) 01:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess you missed the section Olive oil#Olive oil extraction which in turn points to the main article on the topic, Olive oil extraction... --Macrakis 19:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Olive oil from unripe olives

Olive oil can also be classified by the maturity of the olive used for production. Actually oil produced from unripe olives has a much stronger and different flavor. It is actually bitter, more intense, more fresh with fruitier flavor and usually does not have a clear color. It is not suitable for frying and it is not generally preferred for cooking. It can be produced only at specific months (at the start of a season) and is more expensive (and rare) than extra virgin olive oil. Actually it is the best oil to eat raw on salads.--195.167.60.23 11:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, unripe olives have greener oil. Higher quality oils are usually greener (yellow extra virgin olive oil is unheard of while yellow virgin olive oil makes more sense). Because of the color , extra virgin olive oil is produced from unripe olives, right? So, greener, unripe, high quality oils are usually the best.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.42.30 (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Types of Olives

The reference to types of olives lists Frantoio, etc. -- These tend to be the Tuscan olives, but in the south of Italy the olives tend to be other varietals. The new FS17 variety that was specifically bred for high oil content might be worth mentioning someplace. I don't think a digression on types of olives would work unless it is set up as a separate page somewhere. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jchandler2730 (talk • contribs) 23:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

External Links

I created a page all about Unfiltered Olive Oil here: http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzz/Unfiltered_Olive_Oil. Of course, I won't add it myself but if someone thinks it contributes to the page I would be honored.

This page doesn't seem to meet the criteria of our external links policy. Thanks for asking on the Talk page, though. --Macrakis 19:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

Regarding those changes in data [3], did they come with a source? The 97% production of Spain, Greece and Italy refers to european production level, not global one. Is there any source for the rest of the changes? If not they should be reverted. Miskin 12:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

External Link Proposal

I'd like to add a link to a food wiki that discusses how to store olive oil which I think is important information to know. I contributed to that article and came back to find it improved upon. Please look at this link and let me know if you agree that the link is worth adding. I'm still new to wikipedia and made the mistake of adding some links without explaining them and having them removed as junk. --Drewsachs 00:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC) Storing Olive Oil

Remove EVOO abbreviation?

I am tempted to remove the abbreviation of EVOO for extra virgin olive oil since it is not an abbreviation for it but a trademarked name thought up by a cooking celebrity. Any thoughts? Rilr 16:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. Biagini 00:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

External Links Cleanup

Would someone like to check the external links. There seem to be some to mostly commercial websites. There are also some incorrectly tagged foreign language links.

Statistic clarification requested

I am confused by the following text from the article:

The United States is Italy's biggest customer, absorbing 22 percent of total Italian production of 131.6 million gallons in 1994. A 45 percent increase in 1995-1996 is blamed for a drop of 10 percent in sales in Italy, and a 10 percent decline in exports to the United States. Despite shrinkage in production, Italian exports of olive oil rose by 19.2 percent from 1994 to 1995.

A 45 percent increase in what? I can't deduce an answer that makes sense, given the nearby comments. Could somebody please clarify this?

Image

Looks like the image was deleted from Commons due to a stock photo exchange permissions issue. Does anyone have a decent photo of a cruet of olive oil?-Wafulz 16:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Adulteration and substitution

The adulteration and substitution of extra virgin olive oil is discussed at length in this article. A section about this should be added. Badagnani 02:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the article "Slippery Business" by Tom Mueller in the The New Yorker. It mentions some brands as being adulterated, including Bertoli. There will likely be some stink developing over this naming of names. Most certainly the article needs to mention adulteration, since it is so ubiquitous a practice, one that seems to be openly tolerated by the European authorities, particularly in Italy. I also notice that Bertoli has no corporate presence on the net, and I cannot find any information about its corporate ownership. Bertoli needs its own article. --Ace Telephone 23:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, try the correct spelling, Bertolli (which is by the way a terrible article, but that's another matter). As for their corporate Web site, Google easily finds their site. It is also easy enough to find that the brand now belongs to Unilever. --Macrakis (talk) 23:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Has this been done? Badagnani 21:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

No.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.42.30 (talk) 22:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

References

I could not get to the link to the USDA standards of grades of olive oil. I'm new to wikipedia and I cannot edit the reference section in olive oil. The edit this page just lists references. The link to USDA standards of grades of olive oil has changed to http://www.ams.usda.gov/standards/oliveoil.pdf Abee60 18:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Pesticide use

The relative prevalence of pesticide (and other chemical) use in various growing regions should be noted, as should be tests detecting residues of such chemicals. Badagnani 21:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Dubious

This attestation of the wandering Hebrews being the first to press olive oil is ridiculous, as residue dated to 4000 BC has been found in Crete. According to Biblical scholars, the Universe was only created in 4004 BC, meaning that the Exodus had to occur much later. This of course doesn't mesh with scientific dating. Alexneophile (talk) 11:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct that to "some" Biblical scholars!

But you're right... the Exodus is normally dated to the 14th century (BC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.189.50 (talk) 22:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)