Talk:Oldschool jungle

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I think this page really should redirect to jungle_(music) but the text would have to be merged.

Article is now titled jungle (music). Redirects fixed --Lexor|Talk 08:02, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] spelling 'Oldskool' with a 'ch'

has anyone ever seen the word oldskool spelt with a 'ch'. Why has it been done on this page? surely spelling it with a 'k' is the standard?

Acaveinpakistan (15 october 06)

Who put this page up saying that drum n bass was a type of house and that it was for people that wanted to dance faster but weren't into hard house? dnb and jungle is a completely seperate genre, defined by a different energy.

thanx for adding the 2-step thing though, i always forget about that. But i rewrote the article based on what i know of jungle and drum n bass, which since i make it i think is fairly solid. I hope I didn't piss anybody off.

Pema

[edit] Moved Jungle (music) to Jungle music

I moved Jungle (music) here to mimic al other musical genres (e.g. Ambient music Techno music Electronic music Heavy metal music ...).

[edit] cleaned up the text

hey, i make jungle to, i just cleaned up the text a bit. good job.

[edit] Argument for redirect to DnB article

I find that compared to the DnB article, this article is pretty lacking. I'd like to just redirect to the Drum and Bass article (which is excellent), as I feel that any distinction between the two terms has ceased to exist (most DnB artists will tell you the two terms refer to the same thing). What do you guys think about that? Themindset 17:02, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I feel people are still confused about jungle & drum n bass, which are two different styles. Drum n bass has its roots in jungle music, it gradually changed in sound as more and more people from different muical backgrounds started making jungle-style tracks, influencing eachother and sparking crativity for new sounds and approaches in the genre. About the origins of jungle music: it came to life in the early 90's rave-scene, when people like Slipmatt, Remarc, Doc Scott & many others started integrating reggae, ragga and hiphop into their dance music. Instead of a straight 4/4 beat they started using breakbeats as percussion, backed with slower rub-a-dub style baslines and (short) vocal clips put on top. The classic track "On a ragga tip" by Slipmatt is a good example of this merging of styles. -unsigned comment

unfortunately, that distinction is no longer considered to be valid by the majority of artists/fans of the genres. Themindset 23:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You still got that hot-line to the masses mindset?tactik 13:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I'd like to agree with Tactik and the unsigned comment above. The views of the majority of dnb fans (which is a significantly larger scene currently (in the UK at least), do not negate the views of the sizeable group of DJs, musicologists, and producers who do see a difference. As with all underground music, it is difficult to find a definitive source to cite, but the fact that flyers and artists themselves distinguish the genres (eg Mu's blurb about Bizzy b - http://www.planet-mu.com/artist49.html) suggests the distinction is a meaningful one. I would say the key difference is the much larger variation in the rhythm of the breakbeat during the course of a jungle tune. There would be more heirarchical sense in referring to DnB and jungle as subgenres of Breakbeat hardcore, with equal status.

My second point is that there would be some benefit in adding a section about the production of Oldskool jungle, which is not really mentioned. The prevalence of certain sounds, along with the emphasis on heavily editing breakbeats, would be worth adding, maybe linking to the Amen page...

Also has anyone ever seen a good source for the claim that the word 'rinse' originated in the firing of a clip of bullets from a gun, and was adopted by junglists due to the similarity in sound of the mashing of breaks to the firing of an automatic weapon?

82.3.85.167 17:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)Rrritalin

[edit] whole bunch of text added by 210.193.133.1

Almost all good stuff, just removed some POV stuff and formatted and fixed some typos. interesting stuff. Themindset 18:17, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The new stuff is much needed whoever added this. Jungle Techno was indeed a term I and many others used back in 1992. I'll see if I can add labels and artists from that time. I belive the term was used in 1991 after the self titled Jungle Techno record. --Revolt 10:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text added by 62.3.70.68

This was added to the article, although it seems more like a discussion of the article than anything that belongs on the page. So it can stay here unless someone can find a use for it. Mushintalk 22:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

It was never called Jungle "Techno" in the UK, the origin of the sound. Such references are incorrect. Jungle is breakbeat orientated. Techno is a completely different Genre. 62.3.70.68

Ibiza disagrees - as such words are mentioned on their early tracks, so there's something in it. Try here [1], [2], [3], [4]. It's nothing to do with different gernes. It's a certain form of breakbeat with techno sounding bits - no different than "breakbeat hardcore" had many techno riffs, hoovers and stabs. What else can they be exactly? There's also MC GQ going on about "are you ready for some bloodclot jungle techno?" in that big 1994 track, which name escapes me at the moment, so that's a credible source straight away. Also Five-O going on about it too in mix tapes. The "Techno" is the early Euro hardcore strain here by the way. Same place where Techstep gets its name from. --Revolt 19:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The tune with the "are you ready for some bloodclart jungle techno" was The Way by DJ Taktix - the MC was Mad P from Top Buzz. Jungle Techno/Tekno is a term that has been used for years. There were even a series of compilations put out a number of years ago - see http://www.rolldabeats.com/search/title/jungle/tekno and http://www.rolldabeats.com/search/title/jungle/techno. Some people disagree as to how much it is a valid term but for many it's something that describes the 92/93 style of hardcore moving into jungle that still retained a very techno influence e.g. Basement Records. There is, undeniably, a huge techno influence in early hardcore Mrhaste 20:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why shouldn't Jungle and DnB be merged?

Can anyone give a good reason why jungle is differen't enough from dnb to warrant a separate article? --Frantik 00:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the early origins of the two are similar but if you say Jungle you are usually talking about more off-beat, cut up sound (still with strong ragga elements). The term is still used in the free party scene where as drum and bass is considered more commercial and what is played in big clubs. I think this article needs lots of work but that shouldn't be a reason to merge it. Rex the first 14:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes but Drum and bass can also contain cut up beats and ragga elements. There's not really any concrete differences between the two which would make me think jungle warrants its own page, at least as far as i can tell. --Frantik 23:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I disagree. I still think that there is music that I would call Jungle but I would not call drum and bass and that alone would seem grounds for a separate article but if there is a majority for merging I'm ok with it. Rex the first 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a bit of a knotty problem isn't it? My feeling is that although jungle did come first and was around before the drum'n'bass label was coined, my feeling is that it is more of a sub genre of drum'n'bass than a seperate genre in its own right - d'n'b being quite diverse as it is... I would go for merging it into d'n'b, but making sure that the d'n'b entry mentions the points that you make. SupernautRemix 18:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Jungle came from hardcore... 1993-1997. But by 1996 and 97, most of it was Jump Up and had lost the detail and the beats became repetative. After 1997, its all Drum and Bass... repetitive beats, boring just-like-that-other track basslines... But even during the heyday of pure oldskool jungle (93-95) you can find the influences that would come together to form drum and bass. If I had the time, I could go from label to label within the genres and show you the exact release where the music ceased to be jungle and became dNb. While the difference between the genres is hard to explain, any real junglist will be able to make a sour face and say "man... i can't stand drum and bass". The dNb heads may like to think that their genre encompasses jungle... maybe even some of them are formerly the pioneers of jungle. But that is just ego driven BS from guys who know deep in their hearts that when they were creating and innovating jungle, they were doing something revolutionary- another difference between the genres in the revolutionary nature of Jungle and what it says... as can be noted in the names of many jungle labels, now churning out dNb or simply defunkt. Anyway... Any oldskool pioneers who want to lump the two together have earned the right to do so, but in their hearts they know that while dNb may be more commercially successful than jungle, it is no longer the same music. ----nomaad

- There are many Jungle tracks you would no way assign the term dNb, and there are probably even more dNb tracks you would never call jungle. There are a few tracks that are stuck in the middle, but when you take a Jungle track and a dNb track you can usually say which is which. Jungle faded to dNb, obviously there was a transition period but the two are completely different. Bit like Michael Jackson when he turned white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.59.194 (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect to drum and bass

I recently took the best parts of this page and added them to the drum and bass page. I think this page should be a redirect to drum and bass now since there is no unique content on this page. opinions? Frantik 07:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

actually, i decided to just go ahead and do it.. Frantik 07:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
cheers. Themindset 20:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] this page is unencyclopedic and really should be reverted to the redirect to dnb

Right at the beginning of this article we find "large population of black punters".. which isn't exactly a phrase one expects to find in an encyclopedia.

A fair of the information on this page is incorrect. For example: It can be definitively stated that Jungle came into existence when someone first sampled a famous drum-solo from the song "Amen, brother Amen broether was sampled many times before the term jungle was used, in hiphop and in many rave tracks. Ragga jungle is definitely known for it's heavy use of the amen, but it didn't originate with ragga.


I made this page a redirect to DNB recently. I think the best parts of this page should be added to the dnb and ragga pages, and have this page return to the redirect.

Frantik 11:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

This page is a mess. Lines starting with uncapitalised letters, unformatted headers, a collection of sketchy facts at best. Why exactly is this better than a redirect to the dnb article? I say redirect. Mushintalk 17:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
And what is "jungle asides - random quotes"?! Mushintalk 21:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
why redirect when it's a notable enough style to merit it's own article? just edit and rewrite the bad parts into good parts --MilkMiruku 00:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
There's been extensive discussion regarding why this should be a redirect, with the vast majority agreeing on redirect. Great work had been done to incorporate the Jungle music info into the DnB article, and what Jungle music has now become is embarrassing. Themindset 20:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
oh my god!! not uncapitalised letters!!!*dun-dun-dunnnnnn.... and you say that WE'RE splitting hairs?!tactik 17:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
That helps a lot. This situation is already a mess, I have no interest in getting into petty arguments. My point was that the page was a mess. Mushintalk 19:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
i cleaned it up and made it encyclopedic a few days ago so i'd say it's worthy of existing seperate to the dnb article. basically put, if people are saying that 'jungle' is just 'old skool dnb', although being called something different (i.e. 'jungle') at that point in time, then with all the subgenre articles there are for other dnb subgenres like hardstep, intelligent drum and bass, Jump-Up, Liquid funk, techstep, etc, why not have one for 'old skool dnb', or, more accurately titled , 'jungle'? --MilkMiruku 00:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
@mushin - ok, cool... so don't be petty then - wikipedi is NOT about punctuation.. it's about Information! =D
Agree with Milk - the jungle article shall have a line where it says "also known as 'old skool d&b'".
I'm happy with that compromise.
And the "Jungle asides - random quotes" was a collection of information regarding the "jungle = d&b discussion" and other interesting points which i hadn't gotten around to properly writing about, it was a repository of useful/related information, but Wiki's copyright rules meant that it has to come down until i receive authorisation to include it.
With all the unique info on this page AND the fact that some of you recognise a genre before drum&bass as it's known today (whether it be Jungle or Old Skool d&b or whatever...) shows that a relevant article (as this is) is NOT out of place.
Because that misrepresents the current reality of jungle and dnb being synonymous. Themindset 04:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe in the USA it misrepresents it (or canada, or wherever).. that's why i noted yr contention in the article. I'm trying FFS.
And the more I look at the d&b article the more I find huge glaring POV crap and good ol', plain ol', mistakes.tactik 04:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

mindset has decided that his is the only POV that matters. You call THIS discussion? If this is how you ran the d&b article then it really is no wonder that it's badly written and wrong in many places. I gave you my ICQ number to chat with me about this stuff... but not one of you has taken me up on it?! Why are you hiding behind these boards? mindset + frantik- Why won't you guys discuss anything... do you just edit when you hope no-ones watching? For every point where jungle and d&b are mentioned together I can probably provide you with 3 more where they've been seperated. tactik 04:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

the only way you're going to make any headway is to finding and citing lots of references from big jungle/dnb names and reputable sources. i simply don't have the time for this atm and dnb isn't my primary edm subject anyway (alternative electronic is). --MilkMiruku 18:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info moved over from Jungle Music

I moved the contents of Jungle Music to this page. There are a few comments on the content, which are included below: --Frantik 03:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[start of copied comments]

[edit] not this bs again!

In the UK, Jungle was also the genre that drum&bass and it's various styles evolved from, although this point is contended by drum&bass fans from the USA.

how many times does this have to be discussed. dnb didn't evolve from jungle cause they're the same fscking thing. the two terms have been used interchangably since 1993! i hate typical two step drum and bass and love cut up breakbeats but the fact remains that both can be called jungle or drum and bass.

In this underground scene drum&bass is frowned as it is seen as being to mainstream and attracting a chav crowd

this quote right here gives it away that you're just using the term drum and bass to signify the popular shit and the term jungle to signify a more underground sound. i know a lot of fans of ragga jungle don't like typical dnb styles and thus they want to enfoce a division between jungle and dnb, but the fact remains that there is nothing that really makes one drum and bass and one jungle.

--Frantik 21:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Since it's clear that this arguement is never going to go away, i tried to make the page less pov. perhaps there needs to be a jungle vs dnb section on this page too? --Frantik 21:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right, it is fine to put the article that not everyone is agreed and that (some/most/a few) people use the terms to mean (the same/a different) thing and I think someone who thinks they are the same should edit the page so both views are clear Rex the first 13:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[end of copied comments]

I really think this argument is a special case of a broader argument.. There are, as I see it, two strong arguments:

One states that the widespread use of the words jungle and DnB in the personal experience of the writers (there appear to be a few of you), are used interchangeably. Fair enough. I know lots of people who use the words in that manner. There are also plenty of people who know a fair bit about both styles of music who hold the POV that they are essentially the same. (I don't have the citations for this, but I'm sure those pushing for this interpretation will be able to supply.) The other counters that certain producers, djs, promoters, and ravers use the terms to denote styles which are, from their POV, sufficiently separate to be defineable as different. There are a number of consistent distinctions drawn between the two genres, generally alluding to the production values, rhythm and form. These are enough to constitute a musical difference. Also, as one of the proponents of the 'merge with Dnb' POV mentioned, some ravers prefer to associate with jungle as having a different raving ethos.

I think the root problem actually occurs higher up the categorisation order. The above confusion comes from the decision to categorise Dnb separately from Breakbeat. Doing so allows the popularity of the style to influence its place in the conceptual heirarchy that has otherwise been adhered to. If jungle was nested in a tree that went Electronic music> Breakbeat > Breakbeat Hardcore (of which oldskool breakbeat hardcore would be an offshoot) > Drum n Bass > Oldskool Jungle , there would be little to argue against. It seems silly that Jungle should be denied an entry when genres as closely related as speedcore, breakcore and drill n bass get separate pages (nb. I'm not trying to say there aren't distinctions, just that they are minor!!!).

end of point!

82.3.85.167 18:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)RRRitalin.

[edit] moved to Oldschool jungle

This new title makes much more sense, and is already in line with much of the content. Reading through the article, I must mention that some of the writting in here is horrendous, overuse of the word "whilst" and random words inserted into sentences, clearly POV statements like "this does not seem likely" without reference or citation... please everyone, wherever this article ends up on wikipedia, could those who are editing the content heavily please try to focuse on writing a quality article.These unsigned comments were made at 16:50, 6 April 2006 by User:Themindset

good move.. and have to agree that the aricle could use work, though it's in a lot better shape than previous jungle articles. --Frantik 03:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


could someone talk about where the samples that are used alot in jungle

[edit] mess

Hey guys, this page is a mess! Perhaps somebody could clean it up so is at least a solid start article?

--Dustek 10:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)