Talk:Old Prussian

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Ok -- First, this information is probably copyrighted and should therefore be removed. Second, it does nothing to inform the reader about Old Prussian -- a language more related to Baltic languages than to Germanic ones, and therefore making one wonder how this language was at all related to Germanic Prussia. JHK

Proto-Indo European is a reconstruction of a language for which we have no written evidence. Don't rely on it too much to prove anything. --MichaelTinkler

Um... I still think these tables are probably taken from a copyrighted source. And I think they add little to the article. If no one can provide a PD source for the tables, I'm removing them on 12 March. HK

HJ et al.

First, no one has provided evidence that the language tables are public domain. I am therefore removing them. They will be in the history if we need to restore them.

Second, Tacitus didn't talk about the Aesti in his Agricola and Germania for the simple reason that there is no such book. Helga seems to think that, because she has one edition of a book in English that combines the two, that this is the name of Tacitus' work. It isn't. The only mention is in the Germania. I don't need to reiterate that Tacitus is hardly accurate.

Third, is anyone else bothered by the lack of logic in the following -- old Prussians spoke a Baltic (not Germanic) language. Old Prussians were the original Prussians. The area the Old Prussians inhabited is therefore German, because it has always been German.

Just wondering. HK

---

I intend to change the mention about influence of Old Prussian on Yidisch. It is ridiculous.

This article can be so much more (or do we really know so little about it). For example, any Bible translations? Dictionaries? Orthography standardized? Native name for the language (this is usually put in the infobox)? Any notable linguistic features? Any state support for the language (courts, kingdoms)? Literary achievements? Influences on neighboring languages? Any official banning of the language by decree? Any residual mark on local Polish, Russian, nearby German dialects? Estimated peak number of speakers? Major controversies? A-giau 08:41, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviations

What's with all those abbreviations in the Monuments section? Wikipeditor 16:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who put them in, but I'll see if I can track down and full-ify them (sorry, couldn't think of the word for that - for expanding/clarifying an acronym). Someone remind me to do that when I get back, if I forget. Beobach972 16:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
In case it is needed, here is the information prior to my edit of it : The monuments of Old Prussian are: 1 – Prussian geographical names within the territory of Baltic Prussia (the first basic study of these names was by Georg Gerullis, Die altpreußischen Ortsnamen. Berlin und Leipzig, 1922) [ON]; 2 – Prussian personal names (up to now the main research is of Reinhold Trautmann, Die altpreußischen Personennamen. Göttingen, 1923, in which the work of Ernst Lewy, 1904, is included) [APN]; 3 – separate words found in various historical documents [DK]; 4 – vernacularisms in former German dialects of East and West Prussia, as well words of the Old Curonian origin in Latvian and West-Baltic vernacularisms in Lithuanian and Belorussian [DIA]; 5 – so called Basel Epigram Kayle rekyse. thoneaw labonache thewelyse. Eg. koyte poyte. nykoyte. pe^nega doyte (this may be: Kaīls rikīse! Tu ni jāu laban asei tēwelise, ik kwaitēi pōiti, ni kwaitēi peningā dōiti ”Hello Sir! Thou already art not a good uncle if thou wilt trink but doest not will give money”). This is an inscription of the 14th c., found by St. McCluskey in one of folios of the Basel university in 1974 [BPT]; 6 – fragmentary texts a) recorded in several versions by Hieronymus Maletius in Sudovian Nook in the middle of the 16th c. – Beigeite beygeyte peckolle “Run, devils, run!”, Kails naussen gnigethe “Hello our friend!”, Kails poskails ains par antres (a drinking toast here reconstructed as Kaīls pas kaīls, aīns per āntran “A healthy one after a healthy one (one after another)!”, Kellewesze perioth/ Kellewesze perioth “A carter drives here, a carter drives here!”, O hoho Moi mile swente Pannike “Oh my dear holy fire!” [MBS]; b) an expresion from the list (F) of the Vocabulary of friar Simon Grunau, a historian of the German Order - sta nossen rickie, nossen rickie “This is our lord, our lord” [GrF]; 7 – a manuscript fragment of the first words of Pater Noster from the beginning of the 15th c. Towe Nüsze kås esse andangonsün swyntins [TN]; 8 – 100 words in strongly varying versions (A, C, F, G, H, cf. Bibliography, V. Mažiulis PKP II, 48, ftn. 7) of the Vocabulary by Simon Grunau of ca. 1517–1526 [Gr]; 9 – so called Elbing Vocabulary consisting of 802 thematically sorted words and their German equivalents. This manuscript, copied by Peter Holcwesscher from Marienburg on the boundary of the 14th / 15th c., was found in 1825 by Fr. Neumann among other manuscripts acquired by him from the heritage of Elbing merchant A. Grübnau (“Codex Neumannianus”) [E]; 10 – 11 - 12 - three Catechisms (I, II, III) printed in Königsberg in 1545, 1545 and 1561 respectively, of which two first consist only 6 pages of the Prussian text, the II being a correction of the I in an another sub-dialect, but the III one consists of 132 pages of the Prussian text and is a translation by Abel Will of Martin Luther’s Enchiridion. An adage of 1583 – Dewes does dantes, Dewes does geitka [OT] may be not Prussian (the form does in the second instance corresponds to Lith. fut. duos ‘will give’). As for trencke/ trencke “Strike! Strike!” [MBS], it is Lithuanian, not Prussian with all probability.

[edit] Prussian and Slavic

The following line was removed : This is an accurate synopsis, although not entirely true because Prussian did possess a few Proto-Indo-European roots in common with the Slavic languages.; (I disagree with the removal). In perfectly good faith, I assume this to be my own fault in not fully clarifying... I classified a few roots in common and an accurate synopsis out of respect to trying not to directly contradict whoever wrote the first line (about Prussian and Slavic being completely different), but in reality the aforementioned Bishop is wrong. About a fourth of the Prussian language's words bear striking similarities to Slavic roots, indeed moreso than the other Baltic languages. By saying Proto-Indo-European roots in common, I am not tracing the language back to Proto-Indo-European to find similarities : I am saying that they possessed common roots in PIE and continued to have these words in common all the way into the current (or in Prussian's case, last recorded) state of the language. Perhaps the line should read : This is not entirely accurate; there were indeed many common words which in Prussian and Slavic were more mutually intelligble than in Prussian and the other Baltic languages. (because to be point-blank about it, Prussian and the Slavic languages do possess similarities). I shall provide examples :

  • Words that Prussian AND Latvian AND Slavic have/had in common :
    • Prussian Ugnis, Latvian Uguns, Polish Ogien. (Fire / Burning Conflagration)
    • Prussian Zemê, Latvian zeme, Polish Ziemi. (Earth)
  • Words that Prussian AND Slavic BUT NOT Baltic have/had in common :
    • Prussian Witra, Polish Wiatr, Byelorussian Pa-viêtra (compared to Latvian Gaiss and Lithuanian Oras)
Lithuanian language has a word "Vėtra", which means "strong wind" and is related to weather, so your example doesn't prove anything. Juraune 11:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
My example remains solid in proving the similarities between Slavic and Prussian, which was the initial point. Thanks for telling my about the Lithuanian Vetra, though!
Your example proves the well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are Indoeuropean languages. They have a huge amount of common words. English and German also being Indoeuropean languages, have very similar words with the same meaning as "Witra": English "Weather" and German "Wetter". Juraune 07:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have to go, but I'll post some more when I get back. Anyway, don't put my line back in yet; although I think some information does need to be included, but I want to help hammer out precisely what when I get back. Beobach972 16:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Juraune is correct, Beobach incorrect in his assumption. For example the German word Wetter english weather, Prussian Wetro, (not as Beobac wrote:Witra) Lithuanian Vetra proof the well-known fact that Baltic and Slavic, just like German and English are Indoeuropean languages. The use of Baltic words in Eastern Europe rather shows, that Baltic languages were spread much further into areas, where now Polish and Belorusan (and Ukraine) people live, who picked up a number of words. Beoba is also incorrect in his statement Prussia: Zeme, because it is Prussian: Same. Also word for fire is:Prussian: Panno. It was Martin Kromer the prince-bishop of Warmia, who was familiar with the languages and wrote, that (Old) Prussian (Baltic language is completely different from Slavic.

Answer for Peter Isotalo: Scientific community uses Old Prussian for Altpreußisch, because Altpreußenland (Old Prussian Land) is the name used for the Prussian land (Terra Prussiae) and people before Christianisation by the 1200's, when OldPrussianland became the Teutonic Order State of Prussia and many more people moved in from different areas. Labbas 22 January 2007

[edit] Prussian

There is no other language called "Prussian (language)" but this one. Why is it under the title "Old Prussian (language)"?

Peter Isotalo 02:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Why? Low Prussian was/is named under Prussian. --Vulpes vulpes 07:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)