Talk:Old City (Jerusalem)

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[edit] Opening comments

How can they have been built in the 1530s after they were razed in 1544? Danny 19:21, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The information in this article (to the extent it is correct) belongs in Jerusalem. --Zero 06:10, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Old City Redirect

Is there any good reason why Old City redirects to an article on the Old City's walls? Surely the Old City is prominent enough to deserve its own article? Ayinyud 14:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that IZAK successfully 'rescued' the 'Old City' title since it hadn't been taken yet. I think that it is just waiting for someone to remove the redirect and start it properly. --Shuki 21:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Jerusalem's Old City

Is this article about the walls? Or the area? Ewlyahoocom 18:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose that Old City should be an article in its right, and not a redirect to the walls. Thus we can have two articles, one about the actual walls, and another about the area within the walls. Any better ideas? Ayinyud 17:01, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree --Shuki 21:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I am going to be bold soon, if nobody voices an opinion to the contrary, and more this to Old City of Jerusalem - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this should be moved to Old City, Crazy. It would be more suitable if someone started a new article on the actual old city at the article by that name. Ayinyud 10:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with עי on both counts...there's nothing wrong with an article about the Old City's walls, and we need a separate [new] article on the Old City itself as a whole...which article this is not. Tomertalk 21:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Fine. Let's! - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent move(s)

I didn't notice the discussion here from last year prior to completing the move, but nevertheless, I do believe the article should return back to Old City of Jerusalem. In the six months since the discussion here, there has been no attempt to create an article about the Old City itself. The walls and the Old City they surround go hand-in-hand (note the coupling according to UNESCO) and, naturally, ought to be in the same article unless it gets too long. It's nowhere near too long, and thus this setup should not be problematic. I omitted the "and its walls" from the UNESCO name because it's a bit superfluous. However, feel free to disagree; nothing is binding. -- tariqabjotu 02:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page changes

I merged the Old City article and the gates article together since it made sense. I moved it to Old City as that is what's its called, and moved the original Old City to Old City (disambiguation). Epson291 07:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I've also added information on the quarters, I will also make a map of the Old City. Epson291 07:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I will also add the photo from 1948 of the Jews leaving the Jewish quarter. Epson291 07:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Done, still the rest of the redirects have to be fixed. Epson291 07:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure whether adding all the info about the 4 quarters is a good move, surely this makes their own pages obsolete. Also I think the old name, Old City of Jerusalem is better. A picture should be placed in the infobox and the map placed elsewhere. It would be better if more information could be added about the history of the old city itself rather than reaping information from what already exists on wikipedia. Chesdovi 08:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
An article on the Old City should include information about the quarters. I didn't take everything, however the information on the Muslim and Christian quarters were small. They can always be merged. I prefer Old City as it is called that. I would find, Old City (Jerusalem) acceptable to, but it is a little redudent when it's the only article called "Old City".
As for the pictures, just move them the way you like, that's not an issue with me. Epson291 11:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and I got the idea of puting information on the individual quarters from the German page. (Also, there is some useful historical information in that article that is useful, and I will translate it for this article.)Epson291 11:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Leaving the page named Old City is just too vague, as it could refer to any Old City. It can also infer that the page is about old cities in general. It makes no difference if it's the only page on Wikipedia with that name. I’m sure people in Knoxville also refer to their Old City in the same way, i.e. just as Old City. Chesdovi 10:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
True, could always call it The Old City, to prevent thinking it was about cities which are old, or does Wikipedia have something against starting articles with "The." Either way, it shouldn't be called something it isn't really called to make the title system work, since it almost is always just called the Old City, but the word Jerusalem in brackets work too as I pointed out. Epson291 16:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that the best solution would be to disambiguate as Old City (Jerusalem). TewfikTalk 07:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Disambiguation is a good idea. According to the Google results, for Jerusalem, "Old City" is more common than "Old City of Jerusalem". It appears that mostmuch of the time, "Old City" refers to Jerusalem, since "old city" jerusalem gets 885,000 out of a total 2,380,000 hits for "old city". Therefore, I think for the present, Old City should continue to redirect to the Jerusalem Old City article. But since a large minoritymost of the "old city" references are to other cities, the article's name should be disambiguated. nadav (talk) 04:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure, we'll need an admin to move it though. Epson291 14:49, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contested move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


The following request to move a page has been added to Wikipedia:Requested moves as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a full request is not lodged within five days, the request will be removed from WP:RM. —Stemonitis 09:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Based on the above discussion, it seems that there is consensus that "Old City" normally does refer to Jerusalem. Even without that, I feel that assertions of primary usage (or lack thereof) can only really be determined by consulting many people (i.e. a full move request). --Stemonitis 09:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been following this discussion, but a page called "Old City" could mean 101 old cities, as someone has pointed out. Beersheva has an Old City, Rhodes has an Old City, etc. The page should be called Old City of Jerusalem, and expanded to cover all aspects of the Old City.--Gilabrand 10:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I've heard of other "Old City"s, so I don't think it's immediate to think Jerusalem to many people. I think Old City (Jerusalem) or Old City of Jerusalem would be the best. --AW 20:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I reaffirm my agreement with Tewfi and Nadav1 for it to be moved to Old City (Jerusalem). Epson291 16:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I feel the Old City of Jerusalem" is a good title; it can be said in the intro that it is "commonly known as the Old City", etc. Chesdovi 23:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Are you claiming that the most common name is "Old City of Jerusalem", or that it just sounds/looks better than "Old City (Jerusalem)"? nadav (talk) 23:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I am saying that Old City of Jerusalem is the best option. עיר העתיקה doesn't actually translate into “Old City”, but rather "Ancient City". Chesdovi 11:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

  • I was considering actually doing the move with the consensus above. However I looked at the article and I'm not sure what the move target should really be. It is listed in the article as a World Heritage Site, but not included in the List of World Heritage Sites in Asia and Australasia. So that is not a good source for a new name. The article actually calls it Jerusalem's Old City, so why not use that for the name? Then the info box calls it the Old City of Jerusalem. Personally I think either of the two forms used in the article is better then the proposed Old City (Jerusalem). Why dab an article name when there is an acceptable name that does not need the disambiguation? Vegaswikian 23:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The name of the place is "The Old City." Everything else is just a descriptor to indicate which city's old city is being talked about, since many cities have historical areas referred to as the "Old City." In Israel, Akko also has an area referred to as "the Old City." nadav (talk) 23:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Which does not answer the question of reaming to Old City of Jerusalem or Jerusalem's Old City both of which are used in the article rather then a made up dab. If we can't use either of those names, why do they have prominence in the article? And the even better question, if both Jerusalem's Old City and Old City of Jerusalem are not a valid name for the article, why are they redirects? Vegaswikian 06:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Also, is the name of the place really "The Old City?" Old City of Jerusalem is apparently what UNESCO listed it as if we can believe List of World Heritage Sites in danger. That's strong support for using that as the article name. Vegaswikian 06:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
(e/c)The article has been moved a number of times. If you like "Old City of Jerusalem" better, then move it there if you like. That was the previous name until it was moved here. The point is that whatever you call it, the common thread is "Old City". In Hebrew, it's referred to as the "Old City" (העיר העתיקה) and context indicates that it's Jerusalem's Old City that's being discussed and not Akko's say. In the English Britannica article on Jerusalem, the Old City is called just that: "Jerusalem has retained a diverse and cosmopolitan character, particularly in the walled Old City with its Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim quarters" and "In recognition of its central place in the traditions and histories of numerous peoples, the Old City was designated a UNESCO World Heritage site in 1981." The Google searches above also indicate that it's more often called just "Old City" without the appended phrase "of Jerusalem." In any case, the most important thing is to disambiguate the title, and I suppose both "(Jerusalem)" and "of Jerusalem" do that. nadav (talk) 06:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
You have to understand that there is no formal place name, as it's not an independent city. It's just an area that's referred to as the Old City, i.e. the old, historic part of Jerusalem. nadav (talk) 06:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
See the Encarta article [1] also, and the Jerusalem municipality's official site [2], which says "The name The Old City, which in Jerusalem describes the area encompassed by the Old Walls..." I feel sort of silly bringing forth sources to make this point, but whatever. nadav (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It isn't called "Old City of Jerusalem," just "the Old City." And as far as I know, UNESCO cals it "Old City of Jerusalem and its Walls" not "Old City of Jerusalem," but the article is about the Old City, and its called that, and the name of the article should reflect that, as Nadav's sources have shown. Epson291 10:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I concur, it is simply referred to as the "Old City". I understand the reluctance to create an artificial dab, but in a sense that is what would be done by calling it any of the new syntheses (Jerusalem's Old City, Old City of Jerusalem). Rather the parenthetical dab [Old City (Jerusalem)] is the least problematic, and "fits in" with the extant "Old City (xyz)"s. TewfikTalk 09:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

How about this instead? Like it is in French Quarter. Epson291 10:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

This page is about the Old City in Jerusalem. For other cities with "Old City" areas, see Old City (Jerusalem) (disambiguation).

Note: the {{Otheruses4}} template read see Old City (disambiguation) prior to the page move. TewfikTalk 08:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

That would do if most occurrences of "Old City" referred only to Jerusalem. This is unproven, and the Google search hints that it may be false. Compare these searches: "the old city" -jerusalem (i.e. no mention of Jerusalem, 1,890,000 hits) and "old city" jerusalem (903,000 hits). The first search includes a definite article to omit cases of "X is an old city", but may remove some legitimate uses. So we see a 2:1 ratio of non-Jerusalem to Jerusalem only uses of the phrase "old city". nadav (talk) 10:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
True I was thinking about what was written before, and the old cities/quarters in Europe and other places. Epson291 10:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Old City to Old City (Jerusalem) as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 07:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 17:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of the gates

While well intended, these additions seem so pointless. Just like the additions that were made about the quarters. Why not just amalgamate all the gates pages onto this page?! There are already links to the various gate pages. Why make the page longer unnecessarily? Chesdovi 12:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jaffa Road Template

What on earth does this have to do with the old city? If you want to add a map, add a detailed one of the old city itself, not some outlying road?! Chesdovi 12:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)