User talk:Olaf Stephanos

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[edit] Falun Gong

Replied on Talk:Falun Gong, go check. Colipon+(T) 06:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello Olaf, I put a post as a general response to Tomananda on the Falun Gong discussion board Talk:Falun Gong. If you search my username you will find it. I hope you still intend to play an active role in that thing. I would like to discuss this with you via email if possible. We want to be responsible to Dafa - it might have been best for me to discuss with practitioners who are editing, on different understandings of what that means prior to posting. What you find there is what I think. I don't know how much time you have for this or what you think. I am in a way trying to join in now because it seems to me like Tomananda is making a good point, it is ongoing, and it is not being addressed comprehensively, but it needs to be. The issue is putting something together about - as Tomananda writes it - Fa-rectification, Li's role as exclusive saviour, people being weeded out when the Fa rectifies the human realm, and the other issue of homosexuality. I have mentioned that I can put some time into this at the moment, but on the other hand I don't want to impose myself in this process, particularly with the long history it has, and your contributions. Obviously I don't want to see Tomananda cobble something up that has a bad effect either. This is wikipedia, but it is also involving something this important. If you guys have it under control then it's easier for me not to start working on this, but of course as practitioners we all want what is best for Dafa. Maybe you already understand everything, just let me know your thoughts.--asdfg12345 Wednesday, 2006-08-23 T15:04 UTC

[edit] List of purported cults

The Communist Party of China a cult? Please, have some common sense. Political parties are not \"cults\", especially if the source comes from a purported cult itself.

Sorry to engage in this private discussion page, but it looks to me that this person who has posted this 2-liner is in need of more information about the CCP and the diffirent viewpoints about it. I suggest he checks out http://www.geocities.com/china_e_lobby/NineCommentaries.html , which contains links to the 9 chapters of the "9 Commentaries on the Communist Party" book from the internation Epoch Times media. 194.88.250.22 13:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you should read the 9 commentaries. WooyiTalk, Editor review 16:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Force-feeding

Hi. I noticed your edits regarding torture & Falun Gong, Perhaps you would be interested in expanding the force-feeding article. Dforest 16:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Email Id

Friend, I would like to discuss the article with you over email... my email id is dilip_rajeev@msn.com -Dilip Rajeev


[edit] Revert War and Trying Not to Generalize About Practitioners

Thanks for you suggestion about avoiding generalized statements about practitioners in the discussion pages. I agree with you and will be mindfull of that type of courtesy. However, please allow me one generalized comment about FG practitioners: Over the years, I have had many conversations with practitioners in different cities of the United States, Canada and Spain. In most (not all) of these conversations, I have been struck with one thing: the tendency of practitioners to engage heavily in apologetics about their beliefs.

Ironically, my first-hand experience with practitioners has enabled me to be more effective in keeping discussions "on topic" in these Wikipedia debates. I have come to recognize the common dodges. The ex-husband of a practitioner in the SF Bay area told me that his wife had many discussions with other practitioners on how to respond to questions or challenges from ordinary people. To me, that explains how a kind of universalized apologetics style has come about in the Falun Gong. It's almost like having a "company line"...but one which is bottom-up as well as top-down.

You have proven to be something of an exception in this regard. You haven't once resorted to obvious apologetics in this debate, and I appreciate that.

By the way, did you know I responded to your post in the Thanks Dilip! Your additional quotes from Li help support my case! discussion page? There's no urgent need for you to respond, but I was just wondering if you even noticed it given the volume of back-and-forth posts we are now experiencing.

--Tomananda 00:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable edit?

May I know why you found it necessary to make this edit regarding Samuel Luo's profession? -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 01:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

As I expected. Wikipedia does not discriminate on basis of educational background. What his profession is has no bearing on his contributions nor the value of his contributions to Wikipedia. Please get that into your mind. Speaking of that, do you have a degree in religious studies? In Falun Gong (if they have one)? I suppose not, from your user page. Therefore, you are as professionally educated as he is on Falun Gong. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I see. Well then, disregarding the straw man, is it too much to ask that you not treat other contributors dismissively? No matter who's right and who's wrong, basic civility should be observed. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FLG and neigong

Hi Olaf. You'll be glad to know I don't intend it as an attack on FLG to mention Li's many statements of FLG's superiority, I just want to report what he has said. Such statements are important for people to know (and by no means unique to FLG) when evaluating a system. Personally, there is a distinction that I can make in observing someone who isn't a martial artist saying that the qigong he teaches is more effective than that the martial artists teach. I'm a Taijiquan teacher, and was a disciple of one of the families that created their style (my last Wu family teacher passed away last year). I was also lucky enough to study Chan and Pure Land Buddhism in Shanghai, Taiwan and Hong Kong and even "Hygienic" Taoism for a brief time in Wudangshan. While the Taijiquan I teach is for everyone, the neigong I've learned isn't for public consumption. My students have to earn it. It is a different thing, a more personal teacher/student issue, than a public religious approach because it still all boils down to the martial art for us. My student's religious studies (if they have any) aren't my business, their personal character and deportment are. The criterion I learned from my teachers is: why should I waste my time teaching something to someone who can't (yet) benefit from it? While basic external exercises are good for everyone, most people have something else to learn about learning itself before they can learn "silk reeling" or "marrow washing" Taiji Gong, or our techniques for healing others (after they've healed themselves, of course). It is mostly a safety issue for our very demanding martial training, though, apples and oranges with FLG. FLG doesn't have any martial component, so that is why it doesn't interest me, and why I get a chuckle out of Li Hongzhi saying what he does is more advanced than what Chinese martial artists (who are able to directly demonstrate their abilites, if they are any good) do. I don't say what I teach is better than FLG, Tantrism, Mormonism, video games or karate, just different! You seem, and have seemed all along, like a reasonable person so I hope this explanation helps! Cheers, --Fire Star 20:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Tagging for Image:Olaf Stephanos.jpg

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[edit] RfA

User:Dilip rajeev has nominated you for an admin. Please see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Olaf Stephanos and accept of decline your nomination. Regards, Tone 13:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for mediation

Hi Olaf, thanks for your agreement at the request for mediation. Normally, we would list people active in editing the article, but this case was a bit unusual since with the article being locked since June 27th none of us (except for myself at the mediator's request) have edited it in a long time. So, since we need 100% agreement from the list to be accepted I just listed people who have been active on the talk page in the last week so that everyone would have been up to date with the latest news. Fortunately, it was a large amount of editors. The reason I say this is that according to the rules the request isn't supposed to be modified, but I will add a note saying that I agree that you have been involved and should be on the list. --Fire Star 火星 19:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbcom

Informal mediator WikieZach| talk is preparing to move the Falun Gong mediation case to the Wikipedia:Arbcom. I have been asked to alert concerned (to the best of my knowledge) editors about this matter. Thank you. --Fire Star 火星 23:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Replied on FLG talk page

Hi Olaf, just to let you know I finally saw your post on the FLG talk page, and have replied. Jsw663 16:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Bonjour Olaf. The mediation committee is apparently experiencing a management shakeup, as well as a backlog, and I'll guess that is why things have been stalled for such a long time. I plan to look into the situation a bit more in future, unfortunately, CovenantD's reason for leaving was a run-in with the (former?) head of the mediation committee, so I'm inclined to go slowly. Also, I'm a party to the mediation, so I have to avoid the appearance of trying to influence the committee. On a related note, I can't ethically unptotect the FLG article myself, since I have edited it in the recent past. Regards, --Fire Star 火星 17:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Falun Gong mediation

Hello, I'm sorry it's been awhile, but I recently agreed to mediate that case. I don't know if it's a stale issue, so it would be good if a few of you let me know whether or not mediation is still needed. Since there are so many of you, I'm going to assume that all of you agree to me mediating until and unless I am told otherwise. I'm also going to assume public mediation is fine, unless someone asks for private mediation, or I come to think private mediation might be better. I would, however, appreciate it if you just said something there to let me know if you are still around. Also, assuming you are still interested in mediation, please watchlist the page if you haven't already. Thanks! Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 02:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed three-strike rule

Hi Olaf! I've proposed a three-strike rule regarding editors' behavior on the discussion page of the Falun Gong Wiki entry. I hope you can voice your opinion in that section (and agree/disagree to it), thanks! Jsw663 18:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


Olaf welcome back. I just read your discussion with Tom and I agree to the principle. It troubles me to see that you are adding material that are not sourced and clearly serves a POV stand, for example, the 2nd paragraph of the intro that I deleted. I also do not believe the article should quote Julia at the beginning so heavily, she is no expert on the issue.

You should also know that in you absence your fellow practitioners have raised the standards for sources. Quoting directly from FG websites and the Times or Wall street journal is no longer good enough for them. They have repeatedly removing material quoting these sources on Li Hongzhi and Teachings of the FG pages. --Samuel Luo 22:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I pointed out some practitioners have repeatedly removing material directly sourced to FG websites and major US media. I don’t know what is qualified any more, it seems that some practitioners, not you, is against anything that does not meet their standards. --Samuel Luo 22:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

You said: “Could we all agree that, from this point on, with the exception of self-evident truths like "Falun Gong is suppressed in China", we should always provide a source that complies with Wikipedia standards? Therefore, if someone wants to say something like "the suppression of the movement has gained more attention in the Western media than the movement itself, whose legitimacy (independent of the Chinese government's claims) has been seriously questioned upon by academics and religious experts" (from Suppression of Falun Gong), such a statement calls for removal in case it doesn't refer to any verifiable source.”

This is what I agree to, however, I do not believe adding pictures will do any good for these articles. Amnesty is of course a creditable source, so is FG websites and US major media. --Samuel Luo 22:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, I agree with you. If other practitioners are as reasonable as you are we would not have these silly revert wars. If you can get them to agree to not attack those sources, I would not challenge the inclusion of pictures. Pictures like that should not be place on the top of the page, you should find a more appropriate place for it. --Samuel Luo 23:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Olaf, I have stated my objections in BOTH the sections in which you have placed your rules - the one with 11, and the one with 15. Please read both before accusing me of not considering your proposals seriously. You can view the edit history for proof on the FG talk page. Jsw663 18:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Asdfg12345 you have already removed sourced material. I hope you understand that your unilateral edits show no respect for other editors and Wiki policies. This page has been rewritten in the last two days by Falun Gong practitioner editors; it is troubling that these edits convey obvious pro-Falun Gong POV. What is more troubling is that the Tiananmen Square self-immolation section has been moved to a different page. To prevent future revert wars we must work together, that means when you (pro-FG-editors) want to remove existing material you must talk to editors from the other side. To show my desire for co-operation, I am not going to do any reverts and I hope you can show your good faith by restoring the Tiananmen Square Self-immolation section. --Samuel Luo 20:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration statement length limitation

Thank you for your contribution to discussion of a pending case on the Requests for arbitration page. However, it is requested that opening statements on whether or not a case is accepted should not exceed approximately 500 words. Your statement appears to be over that limit. Could you kindly edit your statement to reduce its size to 500 words or less. If you do not do this within 24 hours, an arbitrator or clerk may edit or remove your statement. Your cooperation will be appreciated by the arbitrators and by me as an arbitration clerk. Please be assured that if the case is accepted, you will have an opportunity to present a more detailed statement and evidence. Thank you. For the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad 01:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Olaf, apologies for confusing you with Andres18. I've edited my ArbCom statement / FG talk page statement accordingly. But I still disapprove of your action in bringing the ArbCom case because I don't think sufficient mediation (dispute resolution) has been done. Justifying a further ban based on previous bans is a little weak. Also taking a case to ArbCom just for a 3rd opinion is really not appropriate. Note how Tomananda never brought a case against Omido even though they could have - what makes you think that we should be more strict with Samuel than with users like Omido, apart from past record?
Anyway just to let you know that I am merely objecting on insufficient grounds to bring an ArbCom case. If the arbitrators think otherwise, then I may speak in favor of your case on one condition - that Samuel won't change his editing behavior (i.e. wholesale reversions instead of partial reversions). But once that condition is no longer fulfilled, I would recommend dropping the ArbCom case, since the Mediation by Armedblowfish was constructive, wouldn't you agree? Jsw663 17:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Olaf, I strongly suggest you retract the accusation you made against Fire Star wilfully neglecting her administrator duties and breaching WPs on the FG discussion page. Your inflammatory attitude does you no credit, especially in an ArbCom case. Jsw663 17:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Several clear cut instances spring to my mind straight away, Jsw. It is not a secret, nor an accusation. I could find them in five minutes, but I do not think we should be going down that road -- I do not support making too much of this, and I think we should be looking toward the future instead of dwelling on the past. This ArbCom case should serve as a wake up call to the editors involved in this project, get everyone on the right track, and finally, identify and deal with those who are not willing to change their editing behaviour. I will say it again, all Samuel needs to do is undo his edits on the Suppression page, very clearly promise that he will not do that kind of thing again, and I will not have any more to complain about. I am sure Olaf and the others feel the same way. I want to contribute to these articles properly, and Samuel has made that practically impossible. If force is the only thing that will make him change, then so be it. But it is not too late now, and I think he should be clever about this and adapt to the new circumstances.--Asdfg12345 17:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the question should be, IF Samuel promises to do the above and does it, will the pro-FG editors be willing to take on a similar strict oath? I cannot say that your edits even after your renouncing of the POV statement that they are entirely 'neutral'. And more importantly, IF Samuel does it, will Olaf drop the Arbitration case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jsw663 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher131 05:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Olaf, although the unregistered users cannot be proven to be anti- or pro-FG because I don't have the requisite technology or information to determine for sure, there is little reason why a CPC agent would want to call themselves Communist dogs, or say that they are 'stupid Chinese' who can't be more like a Westerner, do you?
As for the evidence length, there is a 1000 word limit (see top of Evidence page for the rule). Yours is over 1500 words. Please just pick a few notable examples rather than give an avalanche of evidence - it is the points that matter here, not the quantity. Jsw663 17:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
If they are just 'random hooligans', then why do they disproportionately target anti-FGers, and all accuse them of being Communist or CPC dogs? This sounds more like a harassing tactic engaged by Falun Gong practitioners. The only evidence of anti-FG activity was Asdfg's link being changed, and I have presented that evidence as well in my assertions. Have I really presented any side as 'pitiable' when I'm just presenting what has happened and recorded and not disputed that it happened by yourself, i.e. facts?
PS I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories on as regular a basis as you are implying or want readers to think (e.g. CPC members doing that to make you look bad) because by that logic, everything can be a conspiracy, e.g. Li Hongzhi secretly being a CPC agent who is just uniting dissidents to know who to target for the CPC. I know you've said that you don't believe this to be the case, but you made the statement anyway, so I have replied to that accordingly. (It is necessary because some people actually believes this conspiracy theory stuff far too regularly)
PPS I think you also must make assertions in your evidence, i.e. points.Jsw663 18:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

From a bystander point of view, regarding the few PAs on SL's talk page (etc), unless a CU confirms that they did it to themselves, then there's no reason to think they did it to themselves. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 07:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There's a difference between 'no reason' to think that and 'no proof' to think that. Jsw663 15:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick comment on Olaf's ArbCom Evidence - Keep your response within the guidelines for ArbCom Evidence in general. It's hard to resist the temptation to argue against accusations which you feel are untrue; however, remember the Evidence page is not for FG discussion.
And since you are such a fan of quoting policies and guidelines, here's one from the top of the ArbCom Evidence page itself - "Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful. As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format." Please edit your evidence statement accordingly. To ensure a balance, I have also e-mailed Sam regarding his evidence. This way I can only claim to be more balanced and even-handed in treatment of both sides, but I won't have any delusions about neutrality in a case as controversial as this. Jsw663 12:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, in response to your response to my post above, it doesn't necessarily only take a clerk or Arbitrator to do the moving of FG discussion to the Evidence talk page. You can do it yourself, since it is your own section, but of course this will be a positive, voluntary move by yourself - your choice in the end. (This is not the same as Covenant D's point and my 'counter-rebuttal'.) Jsw663 13:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Olaf, your arbitration evidence is unacceptably long, still. Even users like Samuel have taken steps to shorten his evidence yet you have made no effort to shorten yours. Please be more concise. Summarizing your allegations against Samuel is much more effective, especially if you do it by points. Try to do it by assertion, then followed by examples, e.g. Sam altered / misquoted, e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4. This makes the matter much clearer for arbitrators. The length of your post, or number of alleged violations will do your side no more credit than if you arranged your evidence against the anti-FG side by point. After all, effectiveness counts for more - quality over quantity. If you can cut it down its present length (around 1500 words even if you exclude links) by at least 25%, that should be a step forward. Jsw663 13:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your arbitration evidence

Thank you for submitting your evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong/Evidence. In general, the arbitrators have requested that evidence presentations be limited to an overall limit of about 1000 words. To the extent possible, as a clerk of the committee, could we ask you to shorten your statement to this length. Thank you for anything you are able to do in this regard as I would not want for an arbitrator to decide that your comments are overlength. Thank you. Newyorkbrad 00:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Smile!

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Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

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Thank you :) ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 06:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate edit

This edit is grossly inappropriate. Epoch Times view regarding the CCP is no more reliable than The People's Daily's view on Falun Gong. That the Arbitration Committee did not impose restrictions on you for biased editing should not be regarded as license for engaging in it. The second round is not likely to nearly as lenient. Fred Bauder 14:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Also Falun Gong is labeled as a cult there, should it be removed from that list as well? WooyiTalk, Editor review 22:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not notice that the edit was made over a year ago. Fred Bauder 13:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Li Hongzhi

On my watchlist. Thanks for the reminder. Evilclown93 20:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR query

Hi Olaf. I have responded on my userpage. Unfortunately you were unfortunate to be reverting a yet to be discovered long term sock of Sam. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Full protection of Falun Gong

What happened is that Samuel created a load of sockpuppets (I think I tagged four today (erk!)), and now he's unleashing them. I thought three days might put him off; I'm just trying a new way to combat this. Also, there's 10 socks that need to be dealt with. I'll notify the protecting admin about it. Cheers! Evilclown93 00:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'ts open again, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cultivating better

Hi Olaf... on a personal note, I think what you're doing is brave, but I think it also becomes pretty tedious at times. Cultivate more patience, keep a righteous mind and do away with the sarcasm that pops up now and then. Cultivating is not easy, and everyone can see how you're doing through your words. From practitioner to practitioner: be more strickt with yourself on this forum, it's important.81.164.171.10 19:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Wouter

[edit] SSP

Other than interest in Falun gong, can you provide diffs that show similarity to Samual Luo? List them on the SSP case. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FG: Some points

Here are some points, in response to yours, which you may have missed in the busy goings-on on the FG talk page:

  1. I don't see anything wrong with the NYT, Times, Guardian articles, nor do I consider them "bad journalism". I'm fed up to the back teeth of FG apologists (and the FG propaganda machine) who try to pooh-pooh or discredit FG critics, or label everything anti-FG as "CCP propaganda". Fundamentally, the said articles are performing arts reviews, and are thus brief descriptions of the act supplemented by critical opinions of the columinists. What's wrong with Shen Yun is in some ways similar to Malboro sponsoring the Grand Prix and having their own clothing line (Marlboro Classics) - they are trying to advertise their cause by sailing a path of lesser resistance. But this is where the similarities end: by not announcing that the act is rooted in FG message and mysticism, and dressing it up as Chinese culture, it earns the disdain of reviewers and the audience alike. The columnists were doing their job well enough, and indicated their principal disappointment with the act as 'not being as advertised'. The same negative sentiments surrounds FG practitioners taking part in New Years or other parades masquerading as "Chinese martial arts demonstrations", then FG starts blaming city politicians for kowtowing to Beijing. The fact of the matter is really very simple: People do not like being fooled, and this back-door approach to getting its message across really gets people's backs up.
  2. Olaf, please can you point out exactly where Manfred Nowak, UN Special Rapporteur on torture, has stated that "organs were harvested in Sujiatun." I don't believe he ever made such an allegation, although he may have passed on an enquiry based on FG's allegations.
  3. Also adding for good measure: You have side-stepped the issue of what the policy says: "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute". It would be misleading to mince criticism in the mass media with defense from scholarly texts, because that would not reflect what public opinion is. Unless and except where the mass-media world has picked up on and share the beliefs of the academic world, the two should be kept clearly segregated so as not to misrepresent.

Ohconfucius (talk) 02:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Neither of them reflect what this magical "public opinion" is, by my estimate. I didn't know that was their function, or how that could be quantified. I think wikipedia should be neutral, and also high quality, and that we should be stringent in our editing methodology. I seems that there should be a general leaning toward prizing academic texts, from WP:RS:

"In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers."

"Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science."

I don't think sources are so much the greatest difficulties, but having editors adopt a measured, balanced, and neutral approach to this subject. Already there are strong attempts to pass the whole article through the prism of empiricism, which would completely neglect the Chinese context and the most central elements to the whole thing. Personal attacks and recriminations have also been flying around, which is totally out of line. Anyway, I think we should move through the article section by section, starting with the introduction. I'll really struggle to understand why the persecution wouldn't be in the introduction. I also think the introduction should be quite bland, or we are going to have a situation where points are rebutted with counter-points. (Sorry to invade this conversation.) --Asdfg12345 06:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting talk page revisions

You can let me know which revision you want to delete and I can do that. Or, you might want to look at WP:OVERSIGHT and WP:RFO. —Wknight94 (talk) 10:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)