Talk:Ojamajo Doremi/01

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Shouldn't we have a seperate page for the English dub? It's very different from the original, and I just can't find a place in the article to put a section on the English dub. (anon)

Not a separate page.. Maybe we can describe the characteristics of the dub in a section, but this must be written with the names of the characters in the dub as this is the English Wikipedia. WhisperToMe 12:42, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Must we have the ghastly English dub names? And can't this article be under the correct title Ojamajo Doremi? I disagree that because this is English wikipedia we should have the vile bowdlerized dub terms predominating. A *lot* of anime fans in the west (ie:me) know this series through fansubs in its original vastly superior original Japanese form. And besides, the (spit) English dub is a totally rewritten and mutilated shadow of the original. In short, a totally different entity.

Ojamajo Doremi forever! (spit!)Mutilated 4kids dross never!

-irritated anime fan who wanted to read about the *real* Doremi thankyou very much.

I agree. We should be using the original names and the original title. After all, some of the characters don't even have a dub name yet. I really think we should change the overall entry and refer to the characters actual original names instead of the dub ones. If you'll let me, I'm going to change the names in the paragraphs describing the characters to their original names. After all, before this was edited, the names had been the original ones. Amina 01:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

And why would this be a good idea? Sorry, but most people who speak English know of the dub. WhisperToMe 15:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but in actuality most people that speak English that come to Wikipedia know of the original. Besides, it looks so messy the way you've made it. I sincerely think we should change it back to how it was. Anyway, I think we should have a vote to settle this matter. Whatever side has the most votes by the end of the month wins and the article is changed or kept the same accordingly. Besides, look at all the complaints about it. Everyone should have a valid opinion in this matter, not just you. Amina 01:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are reading about it. :) You JUST DON'T KNOW IT! (Ever noticed how there are constant comparisons?) WhisperToMe 02:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

Doremi rocks my socks!

Doremi rocks my socks!

- Ho Yan Chan


Dub Name Musings

After reading up some on the dub Doremi I am wondering how much 4Kids knows about Doremi. It's just that the girls and the fairies have a name pattern now (Dorie - Dodo, Reanne - ReaRea, Mirabelle - MiMi) so I don't know if they relised that Pop (Caitlyn) becomes a witch later in the show with a fairy called FaFa so wouldn't it be better to call her name begining with Fa? Like Faith, Fay, or perhaps Farrah? That said Lala's name was changed to Lorelei and Majorika's to Patina and they don't match (also Lorelei doesn't have the octave pun in her name) but it will be silly if Caitlyn ends up with a fairy named CaCa. (Yes I also posted this over at http://mmpu.smuncensored.com/forums/) GracieLizzie 16:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Treatment to Original Terms

It is confusing that both parenthesized original terms and bare original terms exist in one article. Isn't there improvement method? --Kasuga 11:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait, what do you mean? Usually the dub terms are to be used. WhisperToMe 04:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

EDIT: I GET IT! Those titles are Toei Animation's English language titles. I'm not sure if 4Kids will keep them. WhisperToMe 06:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Further Discussion and Closed Vote

Please see the debates above for more info, then vote. Votes will be counted by the end of the month and then the article will be changed or kept the same accordingly. The vote is now closed, due to the month ending, a seeming majority, and ineptness. It'll be kept here for further discussion, however.

For Dub Names and Titles:

  1. WhisperToMe 04:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC) (Aw fuck, why do we have to vote now? And no, new users may not vote.)

For Original Names and Titles:

  1. Amina 01:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC) (And yes, new users may vote, contrary to what Whisper says up there. It's my poll, isn't it? My desicion: new users can vote.)
  2. GracieLizzie 22:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Most other anime articles that talk about a series with an dub wherein therein there are name changes primarily use the original names (Sailor Moon and Tokyo Mew Mew for instance).

Anyways, guys, this is pointless. EN is an English encyclopedia and there are only a few internet fans out there who like the Japanese Doremi. Magical Doremi is series meant for little girls, and in addition the Doremi manga hasn't been released in the USA and, AFAIK, is not the "original version" of the series. WhisperToMe 04:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

A few? A few?! Are you freaking kidding me?! Most of the internet /only/ loves the original! What self-respecting 20 year-old Wikipedian gets up at seven every morning to watch a show that's been wrongly geared to preschoolers?! I am growing very tired of your dictatorial attitude. Let the people vote so they have a say, why don't you? What gives you the right to control everything within this article? And please, would you mind not swearing? Amina 05:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

This isn't a kiddie encyclopedia. I can swear as much as I can, though it's prolly not a good idea to actually do so. I wouldn't say "most of the internet". Now, the pre-existing fanbase on the internet does, but this will be most likely eclipsed by the dub, or at least somewhat eclipsed. Remember that this is an encyclopedia for the ordinary person, not just for anime fans. Also, I notice you have very few edits. In many cases, in order to carry weight in a discussion, users must have a certain amount of edits (mostly around 1,000) before he or she has a say. Again, I say that this is an English-language encyclopedia and it should cater to an Anglophone article. Also, we do not vote first thing. We have a discussion to see who gets the consensus first. Also remember that other countries (e.g. European countries) also had name changes and character name changes. All changed the title of the series to "Magical Doremi".

" What self-respecting 20 year-old Wikipedian gets up at seven every morning to watch a show that's been wrongly geared to preschoolers?!" - I am 18, and yes, this is a show geared towards young girls in Japan. Not necessairly preschoolers.. more like 8-year olds.. There may be a broader appeal, but for the most part, this is a show for Japanese elementary school girls.

As for the Japanese names, this is expressed throughout the article; original character names and other names are noted. WhisperToMe 06:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

About the 18 year-old-thing - I'm talking about the dub, not the original. The original was just as you said, but they've made it so that the dub is geared towards very young children. And I know there are Japanese names in the article, but all I want to do is change it so it's not so darn messy, or at least make a seperate page for the dub or original. You see, you're saying Magical Doremi aired in Japan, but that's not true. Ojamajo Doremi aired in Japan. All I and some others want to do is change it so that it's less messy. This, since it's called Magical Doremi, perhaps should be the dub's page, but the page called Ojamajo Doremi, which now redirects here, could probably show host to the other information. Obviously what I say is inferior, as I keep trying to tell you the fanbase is the majority of internet users and such and that the edits you make are confusing, despite there being 'constant comparisons'. And I have to have around 1,000 edits just so I can have a say in what goes on around here?! Who came up with that rule?! I thought Wiki was for the ordinary person and that you could edit it despite gender, age, race, etc. I had absolutely no idea there's a stinkin' higher archy besides perhaps the managers and administrators. And besides, I'm not just going to go edit fifty articles for stupid things just so I can get my edit count up! But obviously there is a higher archy, so all hail Whisper, the ever-knowing expert of the Magical Doremi/Ojamajo Doremi article. Do enlighten me incorrectly. -_- Amina 19:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Toei Animation in its English page used "Magical Doremi" to refer to the show even before 4Kids got the rights. This page was at "Magical Doremi" before 4Kids produced the dub simply because that was Toei's English title. Now, Wikipedia IS an encyclopedia where an ordinary person can edit, but keep in mind that other people hold others in check. There's a reason why new people can't vote in some issues; if Guy A realizes that most of the existing community is against a proposal, he cannot call in on his outside friends to sign up for accounts and vote! Your vote will stay, but keep in mind that your friends (those that are outside Wikipedia) cannot vote too. And you mean "The Majority of Internet users who are Doremi fans", right? WhisperToMe 22:56, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh my God... you're obviously not understanding me. I wasn't going to ask my friends to sign up. I'm not that low. You shouldn't be so low as to think that, either. And you know what? I give up. You're obviously superior to me in every way in your opinion, and my opinion obviously amounts to nothing. Keep controlling this article and misinforming people - see if I care. Toei, by the way, has ALWAYS used the title Ojamajo Doremi. They gave the title 'Magical Doremi' to other countries where it would be dubbed. And Toei's website is in Japanese, which I doubt you can read. (Website translators are faulty.) And one last question, which I doubt you'll be able to answer: what will you ever do with this article if they never air the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seasons of Ojamajo Doremi in The U.S.? What will happen to the article to the characters and titles that never get dubbed? Anyway, I'm sick of arguing. Have it your way. Amina 23:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Toei has an English-language section :) WhisperToMe 00:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Magical Doremi is a kids show, it is in no way adult it is just that there are diffrent levels of what is considered acceptable between cultures. That and 4Kids is a little over-zealous with some of it's dubs, occasionally editing out things American Children's shows don't exclude themselves. GracieLizzie 22:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. As I said before, Whisper, to start it all up again since someone's voted - we should not be using both dub and original names when referring to the original. It's bothersome and confusing and the format is evidentally not used in other anime articles that have a dub in the United States. Would you like to keep the vote going through December? Maybe we could end it on New Year's and edit it after that according to the votes. Amina 04:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to help settle this argument with some simple points. Firstly, There exists a project called Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga that is helping to set guidelines for all anime related articles. It states:

Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as. If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here). Otherwise, use a literal transliteration.

Next, why not just called the article Doremi. Have Ojamajo Doremi, Magical Doremi and Magical DoReMi redirect to it. It satisfies both arguments. The OVAs, Movies and Na-i-sho which all contain doremi in their title will also match easily in a search for them. They don't have their own pages yet, they need to link here easily.

I'd also like to point out that the page reads terribly, there is no flow at all in the story section because every time a name is mentioned, the alternate language name is placed in brackets, breaking up the sentence. Then most of this information is repeated in the very badly formatted characters section anyway.

So what I propose is this:

  • Follow the above stated guideline and in the story section use japanese names only.
  • The character section does not have to be triple indented, it looks horrible, reads terribly and makes the bottom half of the page, which is just a big list, too long. Take a look at this page Yu-Gi-Oh! main characters. That would be a good way to set out the character's names.
  • If you were looking for a specific character, where would you look? Maybe the Rusty Broom and Witch's Land section should be called main characters and have subsections so that the said main characters show up in the table of contents. "Other Humans" should be called Minor Characters.

- Squilibob 15:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

An excellent proposal. I think you should go ahead and edit it - the current article is choppy, confusing, and doesn't follow said anime and manga project guidelines, and this proposal seems to indeed give attention to both our arguements. I'm removing the vote, too, since there's really no point to it now. Amina 18:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Moved Japanese to a separate article

In light of all the name disputes, I have moved everything to do with the Japanese version to it's own page Doremi. Because the english version and japanese versions have their own pages, the difference wont have to be justified every time there is a name reference. Now that the japanese version does not have weight on this page, all american names should be used. Anyone looking for the american version should not have to be constantly reminded that there is a japanese version. Anyone who blanks this page or redirects it to the japanese page will be treated as a vandal. If you have content to add that is only american, add it to this page and that goes for japanese content on Doremi. I hope that this finally satisfies WhisperToMe and Amina. If not, then we need to use the Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal. This should have been done when it was first suggested. I hope to see no Edit Wars and no name disputes on this page in future. I'm just trying to find a solution to this problem and I hope this is the correct way to finally end this. - Squilibob 08:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with everything. Thank you very much! Excellent work on the new Doremi page, too, though now this one needs a lot of cleaning up. I'll help, if you'd like. But anyway, thanks again! ^^ Amina 17:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Yup this article needs some cleanup and it can go into more depth about the americanization of the series without the POV problems of before. - Squilibob 01:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

Alrighty, is there anything in particular I should clean up first? Sorry if this is a stupid question, I just don't want to do anything to mess it up. ^^;; Amina 06:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Basically where there is no direct reference to the japanese version, all japanese text should be taken out. There is still instances of Doremi, Hadzuki and Aiko in there. The minor characters section has all japanese names except for people like Todd. So those should go. I'm now treating this article as something a young american who watches cartoons would be viewing and the Ojamajo Doremi article as something someone with a good understanding of anime would view. I have a few plans for the other page, particularly fleshing out the Na-i-sho section. - Squilibob 07:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay. I edited the format of the first three main characters - do you like it better this way? You can change it if you like. Also, should we delete Momoko, Onpu, and Hana's profiles since they're not in Magical DoReMi yet? Amina 14:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
No reason to delete them. Delete one thing such as that then you'd have to delete a range of things. For example, the main image in the infobox is from Naisho, which I'm sure is confusing. Maybe Momoko, Onpu, and Hana could be separated somehow. - Squilibob 14:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I've done some editing to separate the current english adaption and the future proposed adaptions, which includes Momoko, Onpu, and Hana-chan. Something needs to be done about the japanese names of family and school people though. I've seen a lot of the japanese versions but none of the dub, so can't identify any of the english names. - Squilibob 15:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Question on Onpu's Dub Name

Just checked Onpu's section and saw she has a dub name. Is this actually verified? There's been much speculation in various forums but I don't think anyone has discovered what the dub name is yet. Would someone please provide a source for this? It'd be much appreciated, and thanks in advance. If there is no source, I'm thinking we should delete it, as we're misinforming the people that use Wikipedia. Amina 11:19, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, since no one's replied I'm deleting it. If it was true, then the person who put it can feel free to add it once more with a source. By the way - the page's box is about Ojamajo Doremi instead of Magical Doremi. Shouldn't we change that? ^^;;; Amina 14:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Whoever keeps putting the name up, please state your source. I'll keep deleting it until you do. There's been much debate on this, so unless you have a source, unnamed person, please stop. Amina 18:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)