Talk:Oh My Goddess!

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[edit] Too many articles for minor characters

I propose merging of several minor characters' articles into one. The reason is that they already cover the subject and are unlikely to be expanded considerably. If no objectons, I'll do the merge within few days. --Tone 10:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not exactly object. But I do not want an excessively large "list of minor chars" article either. I do want to point out that a 3rd season for the show is scheduled. Which specific articles do you have in mind? -- Cat chi? 11:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Let's say all the characters that don't appear in more than 2-3 episodes or are not really significant to the plot. --Tone 12:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, which specific ones do you have in mind? Peorth appeared in very few episodes yet had a serious impact to the plot. Same goes for Hild or Marler. They make more appearances in the manga than anime mind you. A single episode in the anime can be an entire 7 month arc in the manga. -- Cat chi? 13:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Let's say Hijiri and the others of the kind. I suppose, if you are unhappy with specific merges, you can still make them separate. Let's wait for more people for commenting before the merge... --Tone 14:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
We do not need to wait for "others" for a merger. Please give me a list of the pages you are considering to merge. I'd rather discuss first rather than revert your edits. -- Cat chi? 23:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't object. Showers 15:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I suggest to merge all the characters except 3 listed in the main section and potentially the three you mention above. All others are really just minor. I appreciate your work but sometimes you went to too specific details. --Tone 12:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thats unacceptable. I need a list so we can discuss specifics. A blanket argument on mass merge equals a blanket oppose. Have you watched the series or read the manga? -- Cat chi? 12:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] list

  • Heaven
    • Almighty
      • made appearances in the OVA, the movie, the TV series.
    • Celestin
      • only appeared in the Ah! My Goddess! the movie. chief antagonist
    • Lind
      • Was present during the Lord of Terror and Angel Eater arcs which is like 3 volumes (10% ish) of the manga
    • Morgan le Fay
      • only appeared in the Ah! My Goddess! the movie. secondary antagonist
    • Peorth
      • made appearances multiple times on multiple arcs. Showed up on at least 5 tv episodes as well as the movie
    • Troubador
      • one tv episode few manga chapters - former love interest of Urd
    • Chrono, Ere & Ex
      • few manga chapters, minor roles in the movie and the anime.
  • Hell
    • Hild
      • secondary antagonist from Hell
    • Lord of Terror
      • temporary enemy - did occupy an entire volume worth in the manga and 3 episodes in the anime
    • Marller
      • chief antagonist from Hell
    • Senbee
      • 1 episode in the anime and 2-3 chapters in the manga
    • Welsper
      • No anime appearance however he occupied over 16 months worth (or more) of manga arcs.
      • A full 2 arcs were dedicated to him. He was present after that too
    • Angel Eater
      • temporary enemy
      • did occupy nearly two volumes
  • Nekomi
    • Megumi Morisato
      • made multiple appearances. Some volumes were dedicated to her. Quite major
    • Keima Morisato - made a full volume appearance
    • Takano Morisato - made a full volume appearance
    • Chihiro Fujimi - had few apearances on the tv series was on the movie. Also was on every manga arc where a race had taken place and more. Boss of Keiichi
    • Toraichi Tamiya
      • Had a more of a role on the earlier chapters. Like Chihiro they are on every race.
    • Otaki Aoyama
      • Had a more of a role on the earlier chapters. Like Chihiro they are on every race.
    • Sora Hasegawa
      • Had late manga appearance, had one tv episode dedicated on her, was on the movie
    • Banpei had several arcs dedicated to it one was featured on the anime.
      • Had several
    • Sigel
      • Had at least two arcs dedicated on it. Love interest of banpei
    • Satoko Yamano
      • Made appearance on a single arc (arc was dedicated to her and Otaki Aoyama). Love interest of Otaki Aoyama
    • Shiho Sakakibara
      • Made two appearances on the manga, and one TV episode
    • Sayoko Mishima - chief antagonist from Nekomi
    • Toshiyuki Aoshima - secondary antagonist from Nekomi
    • Hijiri
      • Made few appearances on the tv series
    • Koshian
      • appeared on a few manga chapters and at least twice on the anime
    • Shohei Yoshida
      • Apeared for a few chapters and on one tv epsiode
    • Sentaro Kawanishi
      • Love interest in skuld. An entire manga volume was dedicated on him. He also made other appearances.
    • Gan-chan
      • chief lead in the mini series. Made appearance in all of the 48 episodes as well as the mini-goddess manga.

[edit] discussion

Ok, let's say all from the list except Peorth, Hild (Oh My Goddess!) and Marller that you mention. Would you like to exclude some more? --Tone 12:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok I expanded the list, what do you think? -- Cat chi? 13:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Id say "Shohei Yoshida" "Koshian" "Hijiri" "Senbee" "Troubador" "Chrono, Ere & Ex" to be somewhat minor. Others had more of a role. The anime didn't cover half of what is in the manga. -- Cat chi? 13:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I do want to point out that this listed characters are not even half or a quarter of whats in the manga. -- Cat chi? 13:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd say all the characters that showed up on the movie are rather major (thats why they were in the movie). With the exeption of Morgan and Celestin from the movie they all had lead roles in one or more of the arcs. Some of the charaters work in pairs such as the parents of Keiichi and Megumi or "Toraichi Tamiya & Otaki Aoyama" pair. They can be merged among each other perhaps. Though this may complicate the natural flow since Otaki Aoyama did have a stand alone appearance. -- Cat chi? 13:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
How about you move that list to List of Oh My Goddess characters? --Jack Merridew 13:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
How about you let me discuss first. There wont be a "List of Oh My Goddess characters" but several seperate lists. I do not want to see yet an unintelligible and impossible to navigate list. -- Cat chi? 13:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Of course there should be a List of Oh My Goddess characters — even if a merge were not being discussed. If you want to distinguish Heaven, Hell and Nekomi then use sections. --Jack Merridew 13:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
It wont happen. They may be 3 lists. See how pokemon articles were merged. -- Cat chi? 13:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I was looking at some of these characters the other day and was surprised to see that there is no List of Oh My Goddess characters. I believe that the minor characters would be best covered by a merge to a list. The template {{Oh My Goddess}} currently lists Keiichi Morisato, Belldandy, Urd (Oh My Goddess!) and Skuld (Oh My Goddess!) as "main characters" so it would seem reasonable to keep those as stand alone articles with brief summaries in the list. --Jack Merridew 13:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not really good at anime/manga articles but although the characters had an episode or arch centered around them, they are still minor IMO. Maybe we should move the debate to the anime/manga wikiproject? I guess we agree on the merge, the thing to decide is only the size of it. --Tone 13:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Can we please at least discuss this on our own first? -- Cat chi? 13:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
An arc if it lasts a full year (real life year not manga year) should make it more than notable if you ask me. Shohei Yoshida had a full arc dedicated to him but, I am still counting him minor since it was a shot arc and he made no other appearance. It is unlikely if he will ever show up again. Hence minor. -- Cat chi? 13:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
There are main characters (the 4 mentioned) (they show up ever since first appearance), secondary characters (they show up frequently and impact the plot), and minor characters (make few/rare/one time appearances with no significant impact to the plot). -- Cat chi? 13:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, I think we agreed on a merge already but if we continue the discussion in this way, we will not get any further since you know the topic much better. I did some research on the anime/manga articles and I've seen that it is a common practice to have articles only for the main characters and the rest are minor. For example, even all the pokemon articles (500+) have recently been merged and trimmed, much to my delight. Separate articles about really minor topics make WP look like a fansite. --Tone 13:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

So what is it are you suggesting? -- Cat chi? 13:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
That we move the debate to the project and discuss it with more people. In fact, this is not the only case when I think a heavy trimming would be necessary. Oh My Goddess! is just the topic I've come around once before and have therefore decided to start the debate here. --Tone 13:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Man I cant have 1 month of peace and quiet. Do as you wish. -- Cat chi? 13:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
All but the four I mentioned above should be merged. --Jack Merridew 13:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
You massacred the episode articles and now are after character articles. Stunning. Why am I your target of interest? -- Cat chi? 13:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Come on, this has nothing to do with you, there are hundreds of anime/manga articles that need to be rewritten in the same manner. --Tone 13:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Yea right. Why bother with the discussion Jack Merridew will mass mergeredirectify despite whats being said discussed or voted on. Why even waste the time. Just invite a horde of meatpuppets and we can be done with it.
Tone I'd rather discuss this with you and perhaps reach a compromise and consensus. However if you decide to use the other option, thats fine too. Let a group of people who know nothing about the topic decide whats "right". However only one of the option is productive.
-- Cat chi? 14:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I always look forward to a discussion. But I really think that we have presented all our arguments already. The reason I want to move the debate to the project is that there are people who are also familiar with the topic and a consensus there can also be applied further, not just to this series of the articles. --Tone 14:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possible to pick a different topic? Perhaps a more popular series at which more people are knowledgeable on. This series have a more select audience unlike shows such as Naruto , One Piece, or Bleach. This is a bad test case and I am quite burnt as is. -- Cat chi? 14:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Here. I guess the debate there will be more productive. So much for now, I'll come around again when some standpoints are made. Greetings. --Tone 14:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your understanding. I hope we meet again - until then I hope to sort these articles as well. -- Cat chi? 14:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Wikipedia is my target of interest. And don't forget, you reverted my closure of the discussion re the episodes so you rather asked for my attention.
All these episode and character articles are fanish and don't add encyclopaedic value. So we merge. --Jack Merridew 13:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Why would we even want to keep the major characters? They don't assert any real world notability, and if due weight is given to all of the characters (sections for major characters, sum up minor characters and groups), one list should suffice. TTN 17:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Point taken; I believe my comment was driven by the opening section heading and possibly with an eye towards throwing a cat a bone — sorry, for the mixed. The 'main' characters would, of course, need to be established as notable, which they do not appear to in their current state. --Jack Merridew 11:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] roadmap

Few examples not the full list.

Thats my basic roadmap

-- Cat chi? 13:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge suggestion

further discussion occurred at the now closed Afd: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Belldandy --Jack Merridew 13:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I have stubbed-out a merge-target page and opened a merge discussion there.

--Jack Merridew 12:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted it. The discussion was above and has concluded. I asked for time and the initiator of the discussion gave me that. Stop pestering me. I am already burnt. -- Cat chi? 13:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
You have no right to mass revert the merge suggestion. I will give you a bit to rethink your rash actions and restore what you have reverted. --Jack Merridew 13:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Your aggressive and self righteous tone is disruptive and annoying. Even the proposer of the original merge gave me time, how much time you gave me? A day or much less? Your past 250 edits are mostly dedicated to me now aren't they? -- Cat chi? 14:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
You have ownership issues and, it would appear, a persecution complex. --Jack Merridew 14:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
No you seem to feel as if you own all fiction related articles and that you are the sole authority.
You had no edits whatsoever that added any information or material to any one of these articles. All you have done so far was mass removal of useful information.
What options have you attempted (such as expanding the articles) before attempting a merge suggestion? Well?
-- Cat chi? 14:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I happen to feel that the appropriate course of action with unencyclopeadic material is subtraction. See WP:USEFUL. You are entitled to argue against a merge; mass reverting as you did is utterly unacceptable. --Jack Merridew 14:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
That is your opinion not in line with wikipedias policies and guidelines. What is the point of me even arguing against a merge? You demonstrated that you are completely closed to a discussion before. And you have actively ignored it. Removal of unencyclopedic material goes though articles for deletion and that is only AFTER an extensive effort exhausting all other options. You aren't even attempting any of these. You are merely interested in mass removing of material you dislike and not improving the articles. -- Cat chi? 14:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
As an outsider, I feel that Jack has been overly personal and aggressive. White Cat, you'll find that this cluster are incapable of replying outside the paradigm of recent guidelines and selective interpretations of established ones. The JPStalk to me 09:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
You are hardly an outsider as I've encountered you before. And it is White Cat who is attempting to make this personal and is acting aggressively. Feel free to cite policies or guidelines that support keeping these unencyclopeadic, non-notable, unsourced fan pages as separate articles. --Jack Merridew 10:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.
“ An encyclopedia is a written compendium aiming to convey information on all branches of knowledge. ”
  • All branches of knowledge of course includes anime and manga.
  • Wikipedia is not censored against material related to fiction. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy either.
  • A material being sourced did not prevent you from mass removing it (like the episode articles having the episode itself as source) before, it is surprising why you mention it now. -- Cat chi? 11:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh and this isn't a "merge suggestion" it is an imposed mass redirectification just like the previous case.
-- Cat chi? 11:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the merge tags on the character articles; the idea obviously has support. Interested parties should attend to the discussion here and at Talk:List of Oh My Goddess characters#Merge character articles. I believe all characters should be discussed and am open to arguments about the specific merge-target; i.e. possibly targeting multiple lists. --Jack Merridew 12:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-outside opinion on this whole mess...

OK, first off, I'm not going to claim to be completely unbiased in this whole thing; people who follow Kim Possible articles or AN/I will recognize me as having butted heads with TTN over similar issues very recently; I mention this in an effort to show good faith here through the spirit of full disclosure.

Now, as to the always-messy issue at hand here... if I was going to make suggestions as to which OMG character articles should be kept and salvaged to meeting Wiki standards, I'm afraid it would see them pared down heavily. Based on the importance to the overall story, I'd say that, in addition to obviously keeping Keiichi, Belldandy, Urd, and Skuld's articles, a case could be made for the potential notability of Peorth, Hild, Marller, Megumi, Banpei, Sigil, and Gan-chan having separate articles. Pretty much all the other characters listed in the template, I'd have to recommend merging as follows:

  • Almighty, Celestin, Lind, Morgan le Fay, Troubador, Chrono, Ere, and Ex into List of minor Heavenly characters in Oh My Goddess!
  • Lord of Terror, Senbee, Velsper (isn't it spelled that way in the translation?), and Angel Eater into List of minor demonic characters in Oh My Goddess!
  • Keima, Takano, Chihiro, Tamiya, Otaki, Hasegawa, Sakoto, Shino, Sayoko, Aoshima, Hijiri, Koshian, Yoshida, and Sentaro into List of minor human characters in Oh My Goddess!, possibly putting Chihiro, Tamiya, Otaki, and Hasegawa into a separate list of members of the NCC Motor Club.

I also note that there IS an entire category at MangaWiki, which appears to be in the process of having the otakalypse.com OMGWiki transferred over to it. If there's any valid information in the articles I suggested for a merge-to-list that is NOT in the MangaWiki character articles, I'd recommend adding that information to those articles, then having the links redirect to the MangaWiki character articles instead of articles in the main Wikipedia, per the transwiki-ing guidelines.

As a final note, I'm not sure what standard the OMG character articles were written to, but it would be a good idea to make certain that they are written to follow the standard format recommended by an appropriate WikiProject, such as WikiProject Anime and Manga; the WikiProject standards are designed to help in developing Good Articles, a standard that all Wikipedia articles should, ideally, meet, and that Wikipedia editors should always strive for. (And my apologies in advance to anyone who thinks I may be talking down to them; I've noticed in the past that discussions like this one often see at least some inexperienced editors who've never heard of some of these things get involved--and even if all the editors present are experienced, when emotions run high, it's possible to "get stupid" and forget about these things.)

Anyhow, I welcome comments on my suggestions, and hope that it at least helps bring a calming influence to the discussion... Rdfox 76 13:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If notability can be established for specific characters and appropriate sources added; fine. I don't see mere potential notability as serving as grounds for keeping anything. And I don't see the need to merge into multiple lists; see the sectioned format I stubbed-out at List of Oh My Goddess characters. I am unfamiliar with the trans-wiki moves you mention; if anyone wants to move stuff and the licenses allow it... fine - whatever. --Jack Merridew 13:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Note that I was just going by the typical arrangement on comic book, manga, anime, and television series with large supporting casts such as this, breaking the list-of-characters into multiple articles to keep the overall size of the lists down and make them render faster when viewed. For example, see Minor villains in Kim Possible, Minor family members in Kim Possible, Minor allies in Kim Possible, and Minor characters in Kim Possible; the reason for splitting the Kim Possible minor-character lists into four articles is to avoid the long load-and-render times seen on excessively bloated articles (for a fine example that I'm hoping to get a chance to trim-through-splitting, see List of unused highways, which, even with a DSL connection and a moderately-fast machine, takes the better part of a minute to display on my computer). I believe the MOS recommends keeping article length to under 15kB if possible, and to seriously consider splitting when it exceeds 50kB; feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong there.
Transwiki-ing is one of the primary recommendations in WP:FICT regarding what to do about non-notable articles, and is usually the best compromise in cases like this, as it comes the closest to satisfying both sides of the argument--the inclusionists get to have their articles kept, but the exclusionists get to keep the articles off of the main Wikipedia. Since my personal definition of a good compromise is "one where everyone gets screwed equally," I'd consider it probably the best solution in most of these cases.
I didn't mean that the character articles I saw potential for salvaging should be kept purely on the merits of potential notability, for the record; what I meant by listing them was simply that those are the ones I believe it would be possible to establish sufficient notability for, and thus the ones that people should concentrate on improving by bringing them in line with the guidelines for notability laid out in WP:FICT. I might also suggest that they get a somewhat extended period before any merge or transwiki is put into effect, compared to the others, but that's not intended to be indefinite, just until it can be determined if the editors interested in keeping them are interested enough to make a concerted effort to improve them. Editors, the ball's in your court; you need to either step up and put in the effort to improve those articles, or accept that they're going to be merged and/or transwikied. Rdfox 76 13:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I looked at those lists and I see why they're broken-up — they have not been pared-down! Too much text on, well, minor characters; plus all the pictures.
Thanks for your comments on transwiki-ing (I guess the hyphen is required); it seems like a fine option. I'll read-up on it further. Thanks also for the clarification re potential notability.
And I agree that editors interested in these articles need to step-up and improve articles if they want them to survive. The OMG episodes were redirected after many pleas for time and absolutely no edits to actually improve the articles. --Jack Merridew 14:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh really? What are you? An idle bystander? You should also be trying to improve them as well as per WP:FICT. -- Cat chi? 14:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Verdandi is less notable than Belldandy and should also go. Same goes for Yggdrasil. -- Cat chi? 14:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
All characters need to be merged unless an actual assertion of possible improvement comes about. This should all be on one list, as this is just one quick series. You may have to leave out details, but please remember this is not a fan site. If interested users wish to transwiki, that is always open to them. TTN 16:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I would rather three lists are perfectly reasonable; as it allows a little more content (and yes, it is more readable). Do remember that it is still 25–27 articles down to three lists. G.A.S 18:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really looked into the articles yet, but I'm willing to bet some of the characters that do have articles may not even need more than a couple of sentences in the long run. If one list is somehow too cramped, we will just cut details when necessary. Remember, this is not a fan site, so we will only need to describe the principal characters in detail, while we sum up minor characters together by affiliation or just by how minor they are compared to the overall series. TTN 19:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
You said even the main characters should be merged without even looking at the articles? I rest my case. -- Cat chi? 19:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the ones listed on the template to see if there was real world information on them. I just haven't looked at every single minor character in-depth to see how many are just completely bloated beyond belief (i.e. if any one episode character has even a sentence). TTN 19:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, the information need not be in complete detail. But a few paragraphs would not hurt either. The minimum information for any character would include (a1) a synopsis the role of the character in the fictional work; (a2) a description of the character (i.e. enough to identify the character) (b) real world information (e.g. voice actors/Japanese text/translation etc); (c) the scope of the character's role (e.g. the media (types) in which the character appears. Given the amount of real world information I just gave, it would make sense, wouldn't it? G.A.S 19:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The major characters and the secondary characters will likely receive a few paragraphs each, but minor characters will not require as much detail. TTN 20:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a reason why I said minimum: That is what an unknowing reader would require to understand the character within the fiction (This obviously excludes once-off characters).
The quality of the current articles should also be considered. Even if the notability is not evident but otherwise according to the MoS, referenced, neutral, and verifiable, it should be kept seperate if potential for further improvement exists. G.A.S 20:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Our goal isn't to understand each and every character in full detail. The main purpose of a list without real world information is to provide context for the main article and other sub articles. Understanding the main characters is important, but minor characters will not require as much to understand (allowing them to be summed up). Even characters appearing in four or five episodes may not require more than a few sentences, though it may change depending on the character's relevance to the series. If potential for improvement exists, it's fine to leave them, but real world information must be provided for that potential to exist. TTN 20:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured

Do any of you think we can get any Oh My Goddess! content up to Featured Content before it's 20th Anniversary on September 25, 2008?Arlj11 (talk) 12:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd like that, yes. We have a reasonable amount of time till 25 August 2008. -- Cat chi? 12:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Anybody else upto the Challenge? It would be awesome if we could get all of Oh My Goddess! upto Featured Content, but we're going need help.Arlj11 (talk) 11:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes i like with the idea, good luck you guys. Also adding a few more references would be a nice step too.AngelicMasterMind (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)