Talk:Oedipus the King

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Contents

[edit] Present Tense?

Shouldn't all the events of the play be stated in present tense rather than past tense? Ex: "Oedipus learns that..." instead of "Oedipus learned that..."

[edit] Accusation of Tiresias

Does Oedipus actually accuse Tiresias of killing King Laius? In lines 393-396 of the Robert Fagles translation, it reads:

OEDIPUS (to Tiresias): You helped hatch the plot, you did the work, yes, short of killing him with your own hands--and given eyes I'd say you did hte killing single-handed.

It seems more appropriate to say that Oedipus accuses Tiresias of conspiring to kill King Laius or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.11.254 (talk) 04:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from main page

It seems a little trivial for an encyclopedia article. Oedipus the King retold in 154 personalised licence plates (Here is a sourced link) http://web.archive.org/web/20041126095113/http://www.physics.upenn.edu/~heiney/jokes/oedipus.html

  • This doesn't seem to be worthy of inclusion. It really doesn't help someone understand the story. I'm inclined to delete it, but it is on the talk page so I will give it some time. Mat334 18:37, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is the availability of a DVD irrelevant?

Having visited the Shakespeare on Screen page, I am rethinking how this information should be presented without mentioning the DVD format. Rick Norwood 14:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the place for the information about the production out on DVD is a page to parallel Shakespeare on screen, Tragedy on screen. Rick Norwood 00:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two tragic heros?

That statement about how incest is Jocasta's punishment for trying to prevent her husband's murder is interesting because then in her struggle and death she too might be seen as a tragic hero. Theshibboleth 09:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oedipus in the Iliad

Here is what the Samuel Butler translation says, "Mecisteus went once to Thebes after the fall of Oedipus, to attend his funeral, and he beat all the people of Cadmus." That is not quite what the paragraph in this article suggests, but I don't read Greek, so I do not know if the word translated as "fall" only means "fall in battle" or if it can also mean "fall from power". If the latter, then this passage does not conflict with the events in this play, though it does conflict with the events in Oedipus at Colonus. Can someone who reads Greek clear this up? Rick Norwood 15:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


Hearing no response, I'm moving this to the article. Rick Norwood 14:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oedipus Rex

I was under the impression that Oedipus Rex was the most common name for the play. Should(n't) the article be there? —Vivacissamamente 11:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Both titles are popular. I don't think it matters which one is used. - Ravenous 20:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sources incorrect

<quote>Often missed by those reading the play is that the famous prophecy regarding Oedipus's fate has changed. Whereas Oedipus is told that he will murder his father and wed his mother (ln 752-57), his parents were only told that their son would murder his father (ln 676-78). It is because Jocasta tried to thwart fate and murder her own son that the penalty of incest was added to the prophecy; the sin belongs to her and not to Oedipus.</quote>

The lines refernced, according to wikisource are incorrect

[edit] Often Missed?

The article says 'often missed is the prophecy about Oedipus' blah blah blah. Often missed? Its basically telling us that most of the readers miss the major part of the entire story. Has been changed...

[edit] "Oedipus Rex"

Sophocles' play is very often referred to by the name "Oedipus Rex." This is a relic from a time when Latin was the lingua franca of the literary world, and it makes no sense at all for use in English: Sophocles wrote in ancient Greek, and "rex" means king in neither English nor Greek. Therefore, an English-speaking person's referring to Oedipus the King as "Oedipus Rex" would be like a Greek-speaking person's referring to Attack of the Clones as "L'attaque des clones."

I removed this from the article for now. We probably could make this point in the article, however - I'd like to avoid the "no sense at all" type of comments and star wars references in making it. - Ravenous 20:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm just passing through, but I'll comment. Oedipus Tyrannus was the name that Sir George Young (1837-1930) gave the play in his translation. According to the edition I'm reading from, it's truer to the transcribed Greek tyrannos, though the edition is still published with a big Oedipus Rex on the cover. On an unrelated note, the second messenger relates the news of Jocasta's death and Oedipus rendering himself blind, not the chorus. I'm going to be bold and change this second detail. 68.228.27.186 02:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
My copy of Penguin Classics The Theban Plays (first published 1947) goes for King Oedipus - just how many names for this play are there? Timrollpickering 12:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The thing is that, because, as someone pointed out above, Latin was used in literary criticism for a long time, especially in the Classics, this play was known as Oedipus Rex for over a century. Many people know it by that name, even if they haven't read it yet. I know that I did. The title is correctly translated as "Oedipus the King" or, even better, "King Oedipus." But the article ought to mention the alternative title, if only to remove any confusion from readers who are looking for the play under that title. I think that the title of this article ought to be more helpful in this regard. It should read Oedipus the King (Oedipus Rex). I tried to change it but I guess I don't know how. If anyone wants to, they ought to try. The first line of the article is helpful, giving the alternative title, but I think it should be in the actual title of the article, to be more helpful to readers not that familiar with this masterpiece. 66.108.105.21 16:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth
I don't think we should change the title, I do however recommend changing the "Oedipus Rex" page to redirect to this instead of the Opera, and perhaps adding a paragraph about the title controversy (just not the "makes no sense at all" one from above). - Ravenous 21:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Acually Aristotle did'ent state that the Oedipus Rex is the best play, or something like that. He only use it, as a rolemodel and as the tragedy, which have the perfect combination of the different kind of trait, which all the other tragedy have in common

[edit] Analysis

It seems that this section is original research and should be deleted. --In Defense of the Artist 05:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The section was tagged as {{unreferenced}} on Dec 1 2006; no references have been supplied since then, and the interpretations seemed idiosyncratic. I deleted the section. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:15, 2 February 2007

Agree, this analysis section is a bit dopey....

[edit] Page move

This article should be moved to Oedipus Rex. "Oedipus Rex" is by far the most commonly used and recognized title, as shown by a simple Google search. I will proceed with the move if there is no significant protest. --DLandTALK 05:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a request at WP:RM might be a better method. I don't think the Google searches are as straightforward as they might seem at first glance. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I hope that I don't sound anarchical by saying this, but the WP:RM process is traditionally bypassed in cases of uncontroversial moves (unless an admin is needed to move over a redirect, etc.). I would have moved the article already, but I wanted to run it by the article's more regular editors. Note that the strongest argument made on the talk page in favor of keeping the current title is "I don't think it matters which title is used." --DLandTALK 13:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't say Oedipus Rex is "by far" the most common. Both are in the hundreds of thousands of results on google, and a chunk of the Oedipus Rex results are for derivitive works, films etc. If you include the keyword "Sophocles" in the search to help narrow it down to just this play, Oedipus Rex just barely edges out Oedipus the King with 8% more results. While I think that either title would be fine, I think it's probably futile to change it. They are both very common names for it, and someone is bound to come along and change it back in a month or two. I do recommend that Oedipus Rex be redirected to this instead of the opera though. - Ravenous 15:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ravenous; the Google searches don't tell us that one name is overwhelmingly more popular. That's why I recommended going to WP:RM, although I'd be prefectly happy if the page stayed here. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I see this article still hasn't been moved to 'Oedipus Rex' from 'Odeipus the King.' Was there a WP:RM decision to keep the Odeipus the King title? IMO, 'Odeipus Rex' is the best name to use. —Christopher Mann McKaytalk 17:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone bothered to take any action. I don't really see why any action is needed; Oedipus the King is a very common title for this play in English, and it will become more so. Fewer people know Latin these days, and it's hard to see why we should use a Latin title for a Greek tragedy anyway... --Akhilleus (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that Oedipus Rex is how the English-speaking world knows the play, shouldn't there be some uniformity amongst Greek tragedy articles? I.e., most of the Greek tragedies (e.g., Prometheus Bound) go by their English title, yes? Specialists might be comfortable with Prometheus Lyomenos, but most would only recognize Prometheus Unbound. I haven't familiarized myself with the ins and outs of rerouting, but I'm sure a search for Prometheus Unbound could be directed to an article more accurately titled Prometheus Lyomenos. Maybe that's the way to go? If we want authenticity then it should be Oedipus Tyrannus. Yes, I know that's a Latinized rendering of Oidipous Tyrannos: but come on. There are limits. Ifnkovhg 00:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well why not redirect it to the original Greek script then? No; the title is Prometheus Unbound in English. What this article's title should be is still in dispute, I suppose. Adam Bishop 00:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Prophecy and Fate sections?

They're kind of two sides of the same coin, aren't they? plus, the secondary scholarship is light. A healthy dose of E.R. Dodd's "On Misunderstanding the Oedipus Rex" (that might be a paraphrase -- I'll find it) is needed here to address the modern prejudice that Oedipus was just a puppet thrust into events beyond his control. In myth, oracles exist to come true. In that sense they, like fate, merely predict the final outcome -- neither oracles nor fate force the final outcome. Ifnkovhg 05:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Since this page isn't getting the 24/7 monitoring it deserves, I'm going to introduce my rewrite of a single oracles/fate section. The Rush Rehm quotation provided, while accurate, does not really address the free will question that plagues modern readers. The articles only a stub-class, I figure. How much harm can I do? Why do I feel I will regret that question?Ifnkovhg 06:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did Oedipus really do it?

Do we really need this section? Ahl's idea is interesting, but it's definitely not an idea that many scholars agree with, and the article really ought to concentrate on widely held interpretations. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll submit to the will of the collective; I just thought that, since the idea has been kicking around since Voltaire and given the theory's outlandishness, it might deserve a mention. Particularly since (when I came upon it) the article was looking pretty slight, content-wise.Ifnkovhg 05:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well, if Voltaire said something about it, then perhaps the idea's more significant than I thought. If it becomes a small section in a more richly-developed article (it looks like you're adding more sections), then I don't see a problem with it. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the scars on his ankles, though? Could that be coincidence? Perhaps Sophocles put that in there to insure that Oedipus' parentage would not be in question. There is one scene where the spepherd asks him something like, "Haven't you ever wondered where those marks on your ankles came from?"

And then all of a sudden a light seems to go on in Iocaste's head, and she's like, "No, don't ask!"

SwedishConqueror 01:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

I removed this short paragraph that was under the title "Oedipus did do it?" 69.40.251.72 02:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"Although the claims in the paragraph above are true, if they plot was meant to be that he had killed his father and married his mother than that is the plot. It is obviously what Sophocles wanted to happen in his play therefore that it what shoiuld happen. Also although the info the speculations stated above are reasonable, there is a chance that there was a survivor that Oedipus had not known about. Also, maybe the attnedent had been so traumatized that he was confused as to what really happen. In the translation of the play, it states that the attendant left the court because he was so traumatized. Maybe he too knew about Oedipus being given away at birth and realized the prophecy had come true thus leaving the court. Thus leading to Jocasta's and the"

Please see my "Oedipus or Oedipais?" section in the Oedipus entry. It should explain the perceived plot holes re: Oedipus' scarred ankles' escaping anyone's notice. 75.81.184.120 06:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the previous comment, but forgot to sign in. Sorry. Ifnkovhg 06:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

How does any of this cast doubt on Oedipus' incest? You can question the patricide all you want (although I have reservations about whether it should be in this article) but it's pretty clear that Jocasta is still Oedipus' mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.89.180.65 (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who moved my cheese?

I don't want to get into a thing, but somebody removed the fate section, and I'm not sure why. It's a major theme in the play and should be dealt with. I'm giving you people pearls, here ;) Ifnkovhg 06:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The section was removed in this edit [1], because the editor who removed it felt the section violated the no original research policy. I think the section is worth keeping, but it should make more explicit reference to scholarship on the topic--more recent stuff than E.R. Dodds, too. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

i myself have a copy of oedipus rex in my hand. its was printed by prestwick house literary touchstone classics. it is an unabridged version, on the back it says item no. 200564, the cover is a bronze colored actor's mask, with a yellowing light shining through the eye sockets. im not sure what else i need to say about the information regarding the specific book. let you all know im not making this up. A single man is left to venture ahead in case of groups of bandits. oedipus is obviously not a bandit, and he continues to look forward. he is not a warrior and does not choose to face him, implied in the fact he didn't engage oedipus. this point is raised in an article about the story by socrates. my point has hopefully put enough doubt on this point to make it excluded from the article. i am aware that there is a call of the information, but it belongs on a discussion of oedipus himself, not the story which doesn't actually bring up that conflict in all translations. ill get the quote later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.7.220 (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading-Ramfos

Hello. I am suggesting the following book as Further Reading on the Oedipus the King page: Ramfos, Stelios. Fate and Ambiguity in Oedipus the King. Boston: Somerset Hall Press, 2006. ISBN 0972466193. Disclosure: I am the publisher of this book. To avoid overstepping conflict of interest guidelines, I am bringing this up on the talk page. I believe this book adds to the scholarly discussion of this topic. Stelios Ramfos is a prominent modern Greek philosopher. More info about this book and other books by Ramfos is available on Amazon.com. Look up Stelios Ramofs (alternative spelling Ramphos). I'll avoid further marketing language here. ;) Thank you for your consideration. Summer612 (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)