Talk:Odysseus

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Contents

[edit] Cleaning it Up

Wow, nobody's touched this in over a year? Time for some work! So far, I've cleaned up the syntax and deleted some extraneous details on the first two paragraphs. The synopses of the Iliad and Odyssey are going to get significantly smaller; there's no need for such huge summaries outside the scope of the articles for those two works. Also, the grammar and syntax on this article is going to get a major overhaul. I hope you all enjoy (or at least appreciate) the finished product. Molinero 18:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birth date?

I have a question. Was the date of birth of Odysseus mentioned even not specifically? --210.1.100.167 14:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)jg

Odysseus is a mythological personage, and there is no mention of his birth date in Homer's. So no. Uly 20:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
There is a vague account by the Delphi oracle. The Roman emperor Hadrian visited Delphi and asked: "Where was Homer born and who were his parents?" The answer was "Homer was born on the island of Ithaca, and was none other than son of Telemachus, and grandson of Odysseus himself. Unfortunately there was no dating system before the first recorded Olympic games.--Odysses 14:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sisyphus as father of Odysseus?

I want vagina.What source is the basis of this statement?

  • Removed this statement, since it is clear from the Odyssey that Laertes was Odysseus' father. --JW1805 05:17, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Just because the Odyssey says one thing, doesn't mean other (later?) traditions didn't name Sisyphus in Laertes' place. The question stands: is there any source on which this is based? -- Perey 20:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Robert Graves, in his "Greek Myths," gives alternate traditions that describe Sisyphus' seduction of Anticleia (Odysseus' mother) following a dispute with her father, Autolycus. The circumstances of the seduction is given as the source of Odysseus' "cunning" and his nickname "Hypsipylon." Graves lists his sources in a footnote but I don't currently have access to those texts. Ande B. 19:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Odysseus is a cock sucker, of course. So he's a homo, Penelope is actually a man, and Odysseus' supposed war he went to was a gay party in Troy(There gay too) I mean why do you think they called it the Trojan War?

Ovid calls him the son of Sisyphus in Metamorphoses, and I believe Euripides does the same in Iphigenia at Aulis. It ought to be noted that, with the traditional genealogy of Greek heroes, there are serious problems with Sisyphus as Odysseus's father. Odysseus's contemporaries, Sarpedon and Glaucus, were great-great grandsons of Sisyphus, being grandsons of Bellerophon, himself a grandson of Sisyphus...I'm not sure if anyone noticed this in the ancient world, though. john k 19:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the Euripides reminder, I found the reference almost immediately. As to trying to make sense of the generations and geneaologies in the myths, well, I gave up on that long ago. Ande B. 23:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, it's relatively comprehensible, and matches up fairly well, if only because later mythographers like Apollodorus tended to rationalize the schemes. But inconsistencies certainly do arise. john k 23:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Sisyphus is said to be Odysseus' real father at Sophocles Philoctetes 417. Don't have exact references for the Ovid or Euripides. --Akhilleus 20:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Odysseus

I recall that the etymology of the name Odysseus was said to be odyssesthai (Greek for hate) or something in this article. Why was this removed? If it was incorrect, does anyone have the etymology of this name?

I have changed man of constant sorrow to man of wrath as per Odyssey 19.408. Filiocht 13:58, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)


I'm not clear why Greek "d" in Odysseus shows up as Latin "l" in Ulysses. I don't think this is a regular correspondence intervocalically, is it? Can anyone commment?

Probably from the Greek variants Ολυσεύς, Ουλιξεύς, Ουλίξης (Latin Ulysses, Ulixes, from Greek Oulixes, Olysseus, Odysseus) [1] --Odysses 18:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Delta changing in lambda is nonstandard, but ancient greek is full of exceptions, especcially when it's about Homer, who spoke a sort of dialect of his own. About the etymology, I found that verb οδυσσομαι means "to get angry", and the latin word "odium" (hate) shares its origin. This verb only has aorist of medium diatesis and the third person singular of perfectum (medium diatesis).

[edit] Odysseus in modern literature

Just wondering could this article bear a section on Od. in literature from, say, Dante on? If so, is anyone interested in creating this? I could add some stuff on Dante, Joyce, Pound and so on. Filiocht 13:36, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dante

Removed:

Interestingly, Odysseus is the only damned shade who is allowed by Dante to have the last word, as his speech ends the Canto.

This is clearly incorrect. Just to give two examples, Canto XXVIII ends with the words of Bertrand de Born, and Canto XXIX ends with the words of Capocchio. Ellsworth 23:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Sirens?

Why aren't the Sirens mentioned?--JW1805 20:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah Sirens could be one paragraph of the story yet no one put it in.

And after passing the Sirens, Odysseus and his men had to face Scylla (six-headed monster) and Charybdis (giant whirlpool) at the same time. (Book 12). 68.13.248.151 22:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


We just got done reading the Odyssey in class at school, and the sirens were in it, right before Scylla and Charybdis. So you need to put an article in here about it.

[edit] New Greek discovery: confirmed?

I just read an article claiming that the tomb of Odysseus has been found. See [[2]]


How can someone prova that it's Odysseus tomb and not someone other's one?

[edit] Odysseus during the Trojan War

This seems to be entirely missing. It says he is a major character in the Iliad so there should be something said about what he was doing during the Trojan War especially since he had the idea for the Trojan Horse.

  • Agreed. I added a "During the Trojan War" section, to be expanded.--JW1805 18:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Odysseus didn't have the Trojan Horse idea: it was Epeius, as said on the main page.

[edit] Polyphemus - "another interpretation"

"In another interpretation, Odysseus knew that revealing his name would harm him; however his honor, or hubris compelled him to do so."

What interpretation is this talking about? There are countless stories of Odysseus lying about who he really is to people. I'm curious to see an interpretation where his "honor" prevented him. I commented it until someone includes the source of it. - Ravenous 21:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Didn't his hubris cause Odysseus to tell Polyphemus his name?


I think that there is a mistake in the section of the article concerning the trick of Odysseus against Polyphemus. Currently (24.7.2007) you can read in this section:

The trick of 'Nobody' however is more poignant in the original Greek. Because the other Cyclopes inquire about Polyphemus' condition by asking a direct question, in Greek the response must be made using the negative 'mē' rather than 'ou.' Thus Polyphemus responds "Mē-tis is killing me by force or treachery!" "Mētis" means 'skill,' 'cunning,' 'craft,' and 'knowledge' in Greek. This pun reveals the essential nature of Odysseus and 8th century Greek culture: skill and cunning are necessary for survival in a hostile world.

This is very interesting and stimulating, but unofortunately according to my sources not true. In the original Greek text, when asked by the other cyclops what's going on inside the cave, Polyphemus answers "ὦ φίλοι, Οὖτίς με κτείνει δόλῳ οὐδὲ βίηφιν." (Odissey, Book IX, Line 408 [3]). As you can see, there is no Me-tis reference, the "me" in the original text meaning "me" just like in English). So, I proceed to delete the previous not accurate lines and speculation. Of course I will be happy to change my mind, if someone can show the sources for the "Me-tis" conjecture. --Miles gloriosus 09:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the previous is intended to be a conjectural replacement of Ου- for μη- in 408 and in each instance Odysseus used Οu-. However, that's celarly impossible, as 408 would then begin with a metrically impossible cretic. It is the cyclopes who reply with μητις - indicating they don't recognise Ου- as a name; they inadvertently provide the punchline of the μητις double entendre. --Nema Fakei 11:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some deleted text which needs merging

On 18:08, June 19, 2005, IP 206.248.156.184, deleted a section of this article which was called "Odysseus in the Trojan War". This deletion apparently went unnoticed by anyone, until I noticed it a few days ago. Subsequently a new section "During the Trojan War", covering some of the same material, has been written. I think there is content (and some better writing) from the deleted section which should be merged into the current one. At the same time, IMHO, a general rewrite of the section would be a good idea. For example, the last paragraph of the current section seems to have been tacked on to the end. It could be better incorporated better into the section, and in any case, is too long for a single paragraph. There are other things that need fixing, for example, the inconsistencies in references to the two Ajax's. I may get around to doing some, or all, of this myself, but… :-) Comments? Paul August ☎ 20:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The deleted section

Before the Greek fleet sailed for Troy, Odysseus, Phoenix and Ajax went to Scyros to persuade Achilles to join the battle.

During the Trojan War, Odysseus and Diomedes stole the Palladium (and King Rhesus' horses) in a nocturnal raid.

Later, with the aid of Athena, Ajax rescued the body of Achilles from the hands of the Trojans. In the competition between him and Odysseus for the armor of Achilles, the Trojan captives who judged the competition, at the instigation of Athena, awarded the prize to Odysseus. This so enraged Ajax that it caused his death (Odyssey, xi. 541). According to a later and more detailed story, his disappointment drove him mad; he rushed out of his tent and fell upon the flocks of sheep in the camp under the impression that they were the Trojan enemy; on coming to his senses, in shame he killed himself with the sword which he had received as a present from Hector. Little mention is made thereafter of Achilles's armour, so it presumably was lost when Odysseus's ship sank on his voyage home.

Odysseus never forgave Palamedes for sending him to the Trojan War (some sources date to approximately 1194–1184 BC). When Palamedes advised the Greeks to return home, Odysseus accused him of being a traitor, forged false evidence and found a fake witness to testify against him. Palamedes was stoned to death.

The Greek siege of Troy had lasted for ten years. The Greeks devised a new ruse - a giant hollow wooden horse (the Trojan Horse). The choice of gift may have been influenced by the fact that the Trojans were famous horse-breeders, as archaeology confirms. It was built by Epeius and filled with Greek warriors led by Odysseus. The rest of the Greek army appeared to leave and the Trojans accepted the horse as compensation for theft of the Palladium. A Greek spy, Sinon, convinced the Trojans the horse was a gift despite the warnings of Laocoon and Cassandra. The Trojans celebrated hugely and when the Greeks emerged from the horse the city was in a drunken stupor. The Greek warriors opened the city gates to allow the rest of the army access and the city was ruthlessly pillaged - all the men were killed and all the women taken into slavery.

  • Ugh, the entire section could use a good re-write. The syntax is frightening and the organization is difficult. It sounds as if the contributor(s) had read the Illiad but are not familiar with other sources. It will take considerable effort to clean up something like this, though. If I get a chance, I'll give it a try. Otherwise, good luck. Ande B 04:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

--Later on, it was learned that the war could not be won without the poison arrows of Heracles, which were owned by the abandoned Philoctetes. Odysseus and Diomedes (or, according to some accounts, Odysseus and Neoptolemus) went out to retrieve them. In any event, upon their arrival Philoctetes (still suffering from the wound) was still very angry with the Danaans, especially Odysseus, for abandoning him. While his first instinct was to shoot Odysseus when they arrived to retrieve him, Philoctetes anger was eventually diffused due to Odysseus' persuasive powers and the influence of the gods. Odysseus returned with Philoctetes and his arrows to the Argive camp.--

Uh... what happened with this section...? nothing before it mentions anything about Philoctetes being wounded or abandoned...

[edit] World of Biography link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

  • probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) .
yes, I object. The link isn't informative. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homer and a sequel

I have a question about this line: "because Homer intended to compose the continuation of the story and wanted room for improvisation." as I am fairly sure that the Iliad and the Odyssey were oral traditions, not the product of one man.

[edit] Helios' Revenge

Homer clearly states that all the men are killed by the storm before the ship sinks. But it says here that they all survive and die later... Fuzzibloke 08:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odysseus travelling the Atlantic?

The Greeks never used their word for ocean, "okeanos" to designate the Mediterranean, but only the words pontos, pelagos and thalassa. For the ancient greeks ocean meant exclusively "the river that surrounds the world" outside the mediterranean basin and the known world. The ocean "comes back on itself" (XVII,399 and 20,65) implying that it is subject to tides. There can be no doubt, because the word used, apsorro-os means "flowing back" or "ebbing", the movement after high tide. This word, which is also used for someone going back to Ilium (VII,413) as well as other indications led the Greek geographer Strabo to note that "Homer was not ignorant about the ebb and flow of Okeanos" and he concluded that several events described by the poet must therefore have taken place in the Atlantic Ocean.

This text is taken from Iman Wilkens book and to continue I will just name the locations he gives for all the places Odysseus went without much argumentation because that would take too much space and effort for now. Fasten your seatbelts:

Troy is Gog and Magog Hills near Cambridge;

Ismarus is in Finisterre, Brittany;

After that a storm blowing Odysseus cs. southward, the sails blown out, at the mercy of the wind and current which drives them to Spain. According to Cailleux Odysseus arrives in a bay on the north-west coast of Spain, near the town of El Padron, whose patron saint is San Iago (St James), who, according to legend,arrived by sea with twelve companions ( a reminder of the twelve ships?);

Two days later with strong wind from the north and strong current also to the south they fail to round Cape Malea, which is Cape St. Vincent, south west Portugal and thus failing to go eastward to reach Ithaca (Cadiz, Spain);

Further south by the storm missing Cythera (Morocco);

The land of the lotus-eaters is Senegal;

The land of the Cyclopes is Cape Verde Islands;

Then Following the gulf stream and favourable winds to: The Aeolian Island, which is Saba, Antilles;

The story of the winds, symbolizing this is not a favourable route back to Europe, and thus they are being blown back to the Aeolian Island;

After that following the right direction which is more to the north they reach the land of the Laestrygonians, which is Cuba (Havana);

With the gulf-stream and west-winds they now go to Aeaea, the island of Circe, which is Schouwen (province: Zeeland, town of Zierikzee, south-west Netherlands);

Than Odysseus has to go to Hades, which is Walcheren, one of Zeeland's islands, Zeeland being a province of the Netherlands;

Than back to circe;

After that the Tin-route; Sirens is The Solent (southern England);

Scylla and Charybdis is Mount's Bay, Cornwall;

Thrinacia is Land's End, Cornwall

Now southward again; Ogygia, Island of Calypso, which is St. Miguel, Azores (check vegetation and other characteristics!);

Scheria, Phaeacians is Lanzarote, canary islands;

Intermezzo: Delos is Veluwe-area, Netherlands;

Ithaca Cadiz;

All this, I repeat, according to Iman Wilkens; As you see there is not only a story but also directions for two important sea-routes: How to navigate cross the Atlantic, with locations of wind-stills, ruling wind-directions, direction of the gulf-streams and mentioning the most important archipels (Azores, Cape Verde Islands, Antilles, Canary Islands, Cuba) and on the other hand the tin-route to Cornwall, tin being an important substance for manufacturing bronze;

Believable or not, a fantastic theory alltogether in my opinion anyway

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Odysses" 212.123.163.102 22:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Trouble with this is that it's clearly wrong. Troy was not in Cornwall!Stratpod 22:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The above text posted on my User_talk by User:212.123.163.102, does not reflect my views on Iman Wilkens. --Odysses (☜) 08:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Naive presentation as if a "biography"

This article needs documentation for its statements. so that they can be digested. I wouldn't apply one of those lazy bumperstickers, but a narrative that echoed its sources more closely would be more stylish and credible. --Wetman 01:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] landing at Troy

should it be said that Odysseus throwing his shield down is only told in some accounts. Some accounts say that Achilleus was the second person to land after Protesileus (others say he was the last to land), while others say Diomedes, ect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dondoolee 16:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC) • contribs) .

yes, but if we give these different versions, we need to say which authors they come from. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Authors as in more modern day authors from myth encyclpopedias and stories or Greek authorship? Greek authorship seems like it may be an almost impossable task in some cases. In most major mythologies, such as Odysseus, and the events in the Trojan War in general, there are many varied stories of similar events many of them with uknown authorship or from the oral tradition. In any case, am I wrong to think that version written in this article is one of the more obscure landing stories? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) .

Don't forget to sign your talk page posts by adding 4 tildes, like this: ~~~~
Greek mythology originates in an oral tradition, but it comes to us through sources that we can identify specifically, like the Homeric poems, various Greek tragedies, Apollodorus, Hyginus, the Suda, etc. It's not that hard at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Definatly the Homeric poems, but Hyginus and the Suda are kind of like encyclopedias on the myths written in A.D aren't they? Is Gustav Schwab or other more modern myth books and encyclopedias valid sources to site? Also should the writers of the tragedies be considerd differently and their stories put seperatly from the actual mythology? I honestly don't know. Dondoolee 16:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suitor of Helen?

It is to my understanding that Odysseus wasn't a suitor for Helen, he proposed the oath to ease Tyndareus' fear over war for his daughter in exchange for Tyndareus' services to help Odysseus get Penelope is this correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.240.138.26 (talk • contribs) .

He wasn't a real suitor, he said he was one so he wouldn't have to travel so far to meet all the kings and leaders. --Soetermans 09:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] etymology from Iman Wilkens

I know that many people find the ideas of Iman Wilkens exciting, but his book does not meet Wikipedia's standards for a reliable source. Therefore I have removed this text, as this etymology is not supported by scholarship:

As the Odyssey can be considered a story of Odysseus going through successive stages of initation, another possible meaning of his name could be derived of Οδος-Ζεύς: Odos-Zeus, meaning: "the path to God".[1]

--Akhilleus (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] duplication of effort?

Shouldn't sections 4 and 5 -- the journey from Troy and the arrival back in Ithaka -- be left to the Odyssey page? Perhaps, on that page, sections can be arranged to allow linking of descriptions back here, as needed? Jrmccall 00:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Odysseus stuff

There's this teletoon show named, Class of the Titans, which has a character, Odie, who, first, is a desendent of Odysseus, and one of the shows follows a close story of Odysseus. The Episode is called 'Odie-sey'. I was just wondering if it should be added or somthing. ;D Phantasmigorical 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Phantasmigorical

...and Odie is also the dog victimized by Garfield. How would one introduce the concept of relevance for the very first time? Quite a challenge. --Wetman 13:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real or Fictional

After skimming through the article on Odysseus, it wasn't made clear to me whether Odysseus is a purely fictional character, whether he is based on a real person living back then, or if he was actually a real person. If anyone could clear this up for me, I'd be greatly obliged. --71.98.0.88 01:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


I dont think anyone really knows...Phantasmigorical 18:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC) Phantasmigorical

[edit] Length of Travel

I thought the original text said that Odysseus travelled for 20 years, not 10. Is this true? --68.145.239.182 22:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, never mind. The War of Troy was also 10 years. Penelope waited for 20. --68.145.239.182 01:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About his name

In the etymology section this is stated:

"This interpretation is being reinforced by the fact that Odysseus hates the gods and he is hated by the gods."

That seems incorrect. Poseidon was furious at Odysseus, but he was greatly helped by Athena in the Trojan War and in his later travels. Hermes has helped him also, while on the island of Circe. According to mythology Odysseus was a descendant of Hermes and Zeus, so that he hates the gods and they hate them is a exagerrated. --Soetermans 09:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of name

I've always heard Odysseus pronounced exactly as described in the IPA bit of the article (or here), which is clearly 4 syllables. However, several other sources specify that Odysseus should always be pronounced with only 3 syllables. The only online one I can find is here (bottom of the 5th page of the PDF, "His name, “Odysseus”, is three syllables;"). I went looking for this online confirmation because this is the first time I've bothered reading the introductory notes of the Penguin Classic version I have and, lo and behold, it specifies 3 syllables.

What I'm trying to understand is: Is it untrue? Is this just a variation? Is it because Homer wrote in a dactylic hexameter, making a three-syllable word more "useful", maybe? And regardless of the reason, is it notable enough to be mentioned in the article?

Kayman1uk 19:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

In modern English, it's four syllables; in Homeric Greek, three. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Mythology

Can someone add the greek mythology sidebar? This article is already in the greek mythology catagory. The sidebar is on the right side of Jason, Theseus, and Oedipus.

It seems the other heroes like Hercules need this sidebar too.

Thanks

Done. Odysses (☜) 08:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twenty years of wandering?

Say, I haven't the foggiest idea on how to edit wikipedia articles and don't want to break anything, but I do note... the introduction states that Odysseus "is most famous for the twenty years it took him to return home after the Trojan War." This is not correct, his wanderings only took ten years. (of which seven spend with Calypso) The other ten years he was away from home were taken up by the Trojan War itself. Later on in the article there's another reference to his "twenty years of wandering" in the entry describing Joyce's Ulysses. Here's an article to confirm this, if necessary. Anyway, doesn't give a very good impression about the factual accuracy of the article. Should it just be changed to ten years, or should the sentence be amended so it does mention Odysseus was 20 years away from home, but only spend 10 years trying to reach Ithaka after the end of the war? Regards, 82.139.80.157 12:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC) Randal

Yep, 10 years of war, 10 years to get home = 20 years away from Ithaca. People keep on changing this figure, I'm not sure whether it's vandalism, or a well-intentioned but incorrect change. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
So, I take another look at this page a few weeks later, and somebody edited it back to 20 years. *groan* I'll try putting it back at ten, but I wonder how long it will stay that way. Is there a way to prevent this sort of thing short of locking an entire page? 82.139.80.222 09:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)Randal

[edit] Odysseus' death

Shouldn't there be a section on Odysseus' death. It is only mentioned that Circe bore him a son after he left called Telegonus, who eventually brought about his death. Shouldn't we put some details about his death from whatever we know about Eugammon's Telegoneia. At least a link? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Avkulkarni (talk • contribs) 11:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

complicated issue, given that there are so many traditions... Novium 18:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section "Other stories"::"Modern" needs clean-up

Not only is it littered with parodies, references on the side, and the like (it reads like one of those dreaded "X in popular culture" sections), but it also misses important real works involving Odysseus, like the 1997 series / film The Odyssey. Shinobu 11:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odysseus in Roman mythology

That little section seems a bit... weak. It needs some attention, to say the least. I do not know if you can generalize that odysseus was seen as a bad guy by the romans... and in any case, even in Greece, how odysseus was portrayed/viewed shifted around. Novium 18:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odysseus or Ulysses?

Is Odysseus or Ulysses the normal name of this person in English nowadays? Should other articles which link to this one respect the decision taken in relation to the title of this article? This has come up on Orion (mythology).

Also it is not clear to me why we have the link to the novel at the top of this article. PatGallacher 17:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It's Odysseus, definitely. I don't see a pressing need to standardize incoming links. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting it's a particularly pressing need, I'm certainly not suggesting somebody checks every article which links to this, but I suggest that where this has become disputed we should go for Odysseus unless there is some good reason to the contrary. PatGallacher 17:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've seen both names in use but in my experience Odysseus is overwhelmingly how he's named in English these days. Timrollpickering 17:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
It depends on subject. I would not move this article; but Ulysses is much more commonly used in general English, and is therefore clearer in cross-references. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Do you have any sources for that one way or another? Google is particularly bad for this because of the Joyce novel and to a lesser extent the cartoon Ulysses 31. It's been a long time since I studied Classics up to GCSE level, but he was called "Odysseus" in almost every major book used, including translations of Homer. Timrollpickering 18:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Not off-hand; but Homeric studies are particularly likely to use Odysseus, as they are to use Aias for Ajax, because it's clearer in that context. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes but GCSE level is hardly "Homeric studies" or at university level - it's taken at the age of 15/16. But from memory "Ajax" was the name generally used not "Aias" (and it was the same for both, although Telamon's son was rather more prominent). This would suggest that "Odysseus" is very much a term used in English for the masses. FWIW it's also what he's called in the film Troy, the Doctor Who television serial The Myth Makers. OTOH Ulysses 31 calls the future character "Ulysses", but it's not clear from the various pages if the Greek (who appears in one episode) is "Ulysses" or "Odysseus". But then Ulysses 31 didn't originate in English. Timrollpickering 20:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I see the Britannica begins their article by identifying Odysseus as Greek, and then saying Latin Ulixes, English Ulysses. Since they don't Use English as we do, their naming policy is a weak reed, but they endorse Ulysses as the English term. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
It is not very good to use this as most of us can't read it. But what is the title of the article? PatGallacher 20:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have consulted the paper Britannica, it appears to be ambiguous, not to say confused. It does say this at the start of the article titled Odysseus, the entry for Ulysses says "see Odysseus", and the entries for Troy and Ithaca call him Odysseus. There is no Wikipedia guideline that says that once an article achieves FA status its wording becomes sacred, sometimes this can lead to an article being subjected to greater scrutiny. PatGallacher 16:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know of a good way of illustrating dominant usage, but I'm quite sure that any academic sources dealing with the classical world are going to call him Odysseus unless they're specifically discussing treatments of him in Latin literature. For what it's worth (not much) the Encarta article seems to be at "Odysseus". Personally, I see no reason to change anything; the article can stay at Odysseus, and other articles can refer to him as Odysseus or Ulysses as the major contributors see fit. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree this article should be at Odysseus. Please come look at Orion (mythology) and see what you think; it used Ulysses when it passed FA, and Pat has now changed it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the double post, but I liked this quote so much I thought others here might appreciate it as well (originally posted at Talk:Orion (mythology)):

I've always used Odysseus (Ulysses has connotations with the James Joyce novel), but then I too read the Roger Lancelyn Green retellings of the Greek myths. What he specifically said was:
"...the true Greek names fling wide the magic casements on the instant. Led by them we step directly back into the Heroic Age, into the bright, misty morning of legend and literature:
And hear, like ocean on a western beach,
The surge and thunder of the Odyssey.
(Roger Lancelyn Green, The Tale of Troy)

So I vote for the "the true Greek names". :-) (yes, I know...) Carcharoth 16:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] hair color

the illiad portrays odysseus as having red(dish-brown) hair. is that important? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.111.115.41 (talk) 22:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I don't know how to cleave this knot, but...

The middle section on the Odyssey would be more appropriate in the Odyssey article, wouldn't it? Obviously, Odysseus' exploits in his own epic should be addressed, but shouldn't it be done more succinctly here? Also, it might be helpful to break down the article this way: Odysseus as portayed in...and then go chronologically through Greek epic and tragedy, later Roman authors, etc. Just a suggestion. I'm busy wreaking havoc elsewhere, so I'll leave the work to others. Ifnkovhg (talk) 19:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The first thing that Odysseus did after he left Troy was to launch a pirate raid on Ismarus."

"The first thing that Odysseus did after he left Troy was to launch a pirate raid on Ismarus." - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?pagewanted=4&ei=5088&en=a3ab8faa58d681de&ex=1357880400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I don't see this in the article. I'd add it but I don't know if it's true or not. William Ortiz (talk) 13:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


Ismarus (Ismaros) is the mountain or region where the Cicones (Kikones, Ciconians) live. So it is covered in this article. I'll make a change to include the name Ismarus/Ismaros as well. Ivan Denisovitch (talk) 13:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ulysses redirect

Currently, Ulysses redirects to this article, and a hatnote links to Ulysses (disambiguation). There are several listings on the disambig page that will be popular search targets, such as the novel. I see no justification for having Ulysses redirect here because it is an aternative name for Odysseus, even though Ulysses has many other uses than that. Therefore, I propose that we delete the Ulysses redirect, move the disambig page to the unappended title, and then delete the now-redirected disambig page, as there is no reason to search for it. seresin | wasn't he just...? 23:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, it's been a week. I'll leave a day or two for any last-minute objections, and then I shall do what I said above. seresin | wasn't he just...? 03:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I've done as I proposed above. seresin | wasn't he just...? 06:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Sirens

The previous version of the section on the Sirens listed a lot of details that aren't part of the Odyssey (nearly getting free, being bound by chains, the appearance of the Sirens, etc). They may have come from a movie somewhere.

Check Samuel Butler's excellent translation at http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.12.xii.html. Ivan Denisovitch (talk) 15:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant description of the cyclops episode

A couple days ago, I made what seems to me to be a rather obvious edit and removed the first of two summaries of the Polyphemus part of the Odyssey. Falling, as it does, at the beginning of the synopsis and without a heading, it seems totally out of place. Added to that is the fact that it's only marginally shorter than the summary of that episode that's included in the proper chronological place. A new user, Oculist, has twice reverted my edit. His or her claims (apparently that it's a shorter summary of the entire poem, which is isn't, and that it should be recounted twice because it's important, which I don't believe follows) don't appear to make much sense, so I'm reverting the edit again. I'm hoping that Oculist or other users will respond here so that consensus can be reached and we won't have to get into an edit war. Particularly, I'm hoping Oculist will expand on his or her reasoning, which isn't at all clear. Eceresa (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it was a summary of the entire poem. What I was saying was it gives a summary of the crux of the reason why Odysseus has to bear a long journey home. If that event with Polyphemus never happened and if he didn't give into pride in telling Polyphemus his name at the last minute, he would have had a much faster trip home. I think this is very crucial to the Odyssey and it's important to have this at the beginning to save the reader from reading a boatfull of text to figure this out. If you have a problem with the length of the text then I'm happy with a shorter version that still keeps the important details if you want to shorten it. 02:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oculist (talk • contribs)
That's clearer, but you still don't make a decent argument as to why it needs to be explained twice. One could as easily say that he doesn't reach home sooner because his men open Aeolus's bag, or because Calypso won't let him go, or because Athena lingers in convincing Zeus to compel Calypso. Following your logic, we'd have to tell the whole story twice. Shortening it won't help, as the problem is the repetition. While it's being discussed on this page, the awkward portion you keep adding should be left out. You can copy it here for reference if you'd like, so that other users can comment. And once again, you should sign your posts with four tildes. Eceresa (talk) 02:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)