Talk:Odal (rune)

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Contents

[edit] Attempts at name reconstruction

Is the Othala Rune the same as this? It looks identical. If so, that article should probably be merged with this one. — Gwalla | Talk 29 June 2005 16:20 (UTC)

it is, it's just an attempt at the Proto-Germanic form of the name. I redirected it here. dab (ᛏ) 29 June 2005 16:45 (UTC)
Other variations include othala and othila. I have since added information regarding these variations to the article and fixed the redirect pages to prevent further confusion. :bloodofox: 22:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "Fascist use" section

"bloodofox", if you want to add reference to neopagan use, that's fine, but it doesn't explain why you insist on removal of reference to Neonazi use. Use on Neonazi flags is documented via the external link, while we pretty much just have your word for the claim that other neopagans use the symbol without political implications. Care to point us to some sort of reference? dab (ᛏ) 12:26, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Dbachmann, I absorbed the symbol into a "military use" section, which would institute the broader use of the symbol under military means. Not only did the Third Reich use the symbol, which was fascist-influenced but rather National Socialist - a big difference, but so does the modern German army, which you removed my reference to. Which, since the modern German army shows no fascist influence, at the very least deserves a note next to any Third Reich usage. I'll find the shoulder boards to show you.
Outside of a "Military Use" or "Military Usage" section, this section needs perhaps a subgroup that shows breakaway political groups using the symbol, though there are MANY of them out there, especially with the advent of the religion. What should also be noted is that many of them, even as the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) was forced to admit via-lawsuit. [1] In the mean time, a lot of people really see them as attempting to propagate the symbols as hate symbols instead of being what they are - ancestral symbols recognized by many organizations.
As a primer for Heathenry, which runes are an aspect of, I recommend this well-written article published by the BBC: [2]
From my personal experience, one of the largest, well respected and oldest Heathen organization in the US is the Asatru Folk Assembly: [3] Outside of the US, Heathen organizations have been extremely active, resulting in Denmark recognizing Forn Siðr officially and allowing weddings to be conducted a few years back. I'm trying to dig up an old link about this. In Iceland, Asatru is the second largest religion in the nation.
Regarding "Neopaganism" and "Heathenry," there is a big difference. "Heathenry" is a form of reconstruction, whereas "Neopaganism" refers to amalgamations of pagan religions, such as Wicca, which practice a form of religious universalism, absorbing elements of various religions into a single, modern religion. Heathens and Asatruars rarely consider themselves as "neopagans", whereas a Wiccan largely would. [4]
The Anti-Defamation League[5] once listed all sorts of pagan symbols simply as 'hate' symbols because they had been used by old regimes (while most pagan groups were banned by the Third Reich) or have been sometimes used by fringe groups today largely with little knowledge of the symbol. Eventually, the ADL bent to an avalanche of criticism from Asatru and pagan groups, plus legal action, and created a small disclaimer that still annoys a lot of pagans, particularly Heathens, to this day. [6]
I hope this helps a bit. This rune is a particularly major one these days, with Elhaz/Algiz and Tyr due to the themes they represent amongst Heathens. There's many hundreds of years of history behind these symbols and right now this article plainly does not do any justice to the topic due to the focus on a particular military using the symbol lightly for a few decades.
--Bloodofox 22:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
the history and context of the runic alphabet is covered on that article (large parts of which were written by me, so you are hardly telling me anything new). I am also familiar with the "Heathenry" terminology; I have written most of Germanic Neopaganism (which I refer to as "neopaganism" here, Wicca and other "eclectic" currents do not need to be considered in this context), including the "terminology" section and the etymological discussion of "heathen". I am not objecting to the insertion of references to unpolitical neopagan use (just keep things sourced), I am objecting to the removal of sourced statements. I suppose you can do a "Military" section (where exactly in the present German army is the symbol used?), I reverted your edit because you removed reference to (non-military) Neo-nazi use. As the "Troll cross" section shows, the article has been well aware of folkloristic, unpolitical use of the symbol. Maybe neopagan use should be mentioned there? Unfortunately, folkloristic and fascist use blend in neopaganism, which it is impossible to deny includes strong neonazi currents. Neopagan use of runes in general need not be discussed here, just use of the Odal rune in isolation. Btw, the Íslenska Ásatrúarfélagið has some 700 members, which helps put your claim of "second largest religion" in perspective. Many of the organizations lovingly enumerated on Germanic Neopaganism have less than 50 members. Concerning the Odal rune being a "particularly major one these days", I suggest you create a separate "Odalism" section. Note, however, that we do have an Odalism main article, and that even this meaning has been invaded by neo nazis. It is not my fault that the neo nazis jump on anything "heathen", don't shoot the messenger, man. I am simply insisting that these tendencies be documented here, and I don't want to keep you from documenting "nazi-free" use of the rune at all! dab (ᛏ) 22:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I added the military usage section, as we have discussed. A friend also found a small chart regarding the German Armed Forces and their use of the odal rune in the German Wikipedia. I think the military section is obviously relevant, since I am sure it has had some use by Scandinavian armies and probably also other Germanic countries outside of Germany. I guess it's up to us to find out where. I may have mistakenly removed something but nothing was removed intentionally this time. I appreciate your non-combative attitude on this subject. --Bloodofox 02:14, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
of course, I fully support a discussion of use in contemporary armed forces, and I am not under the misapprehension that the symbol is somehow exclusively used in fascist contexts. dab (ᛏ) 07:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't see much evidence that these shoulderpads are intended to represent runes. Please cite some reference supporting the claim. dab (ᛏ) 09:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

at least use Image:GE-Army-OR7.gif, and not your whole bunch of unrelated badges. dab (ᛏ) 09:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks better. --Bloodofox 01:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bundeswehr

now that I have seen the Bundeswehr shoulder pads, and done some googling, I see no indication that the "Odal rune" is intended with the design (see Ranks and insignia of NATO Armies Enlisted for the full series). German neopagan circles have noted the similarity, of course, but until we get some indication of the intention, we cannot say that the design "is" the Odal rune. It is just a geometrical design of four lines, used in a context totally divided from runes. We can mention the similarity in design of course. Otoh, "Fascist use" clearly intends the rune, and logical grouping lists the SS division with "Fascist use", not as "military" with the entirely unrelated Bundeswehr design. Otherwise you seem to imply that the Bundeswehr design harks back to the SS design, which is quite far fetched, and too serious an allegation without precise quotation of references. dab (ᛏ) 09:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

After looking at the whole series (which I liked very much, by the way), please note that it appears no other European army uses this design on their shoulder boards. I don't equate the use of the rune with fascism in any way. I simply see it as a means of the German army recognizing an element of their ancient heritage, as other countries have done and do regularly. I think it must be intentional, though they might not state it openly. I mean, it's not like it's some unrelated country like Mongolia using the rune or something and it is not that common of a symbol. I honestly feel that the person who decided to draw up these shoulder pads was at least familiar enough with the rune to equate it with their nation. A lot of people that went to school during the Third Reich era had some basic education about runes, albeit it was largely Von Listian and thus based off of very little history, they still got a little run down about them. Since nything German or Germanic these days is often equated with National Socialism or fascism, particularly when it's state-sponsored, I'd be surprised if the German government would fess up to this under today's political climate. In the mean time, you are probably right to state 'closely resembles' and limit the image to this page until we are able to get some sort of official comment confirming it... But, especially looking at these other shoulder boards, it's clearly no coincidence. --Bloodofox 02:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added that we cannot find commentary by the Bundeswehr regarding the matter to the article. --:bloodofox: 02:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I served for 9 month in the Bundeswehr and there was one lesson hour, in which we got clarified about Nazi Symbolics and also runes. The odal rune that was shown to us has had two endings that were much longer than on the odal rune in this article, which should explained us, that its not the same symbol that the Hauptfeldwebel is wearing but the similarity was quite obvious to me and my comrades and it felt more like a lax excuse. In my humble opinion it wouldn´t matter if it´s the same rune or not, when the odal-rune would be used as a military sign before the nazi´s showed up (just like the iron cross for example)and the Nazi´s aint "own" adapted symbolics like old german runes, the roman salut or the old german mythology but i haven´t seen anything that would support this theory, that the symbol allready was intended inside the german army before the Nazi´s rised. In my opinion its a pretty rank symbol and a logical continuation to the Feldwebel and Oberfeldwebel ranks to make it a bit easier to differ but theres also another side. The Rank of "Hauptfeldwebel" was intended 1938 and replaced the rank "Oberfeldwebel der Truppe" of the German Empire Army (2nd Reich). I´m not for shure if it was changed by the Nazi´s themselves or just as a military reform by the Wehrmacht but it happend definitely in times, when the Nazi´s ruled. So when the creators of the Bundeswehr choosed this rank and symbol, in my opinion it was quite negligent because it could easily be missunderstanded.

I think it was pretty intentional. However, I think it was a wise move - it's an indigenous symbol - they knew it - but due to the restrictions imposed upon them after WWII, they had to be pretty careful. National armies use native symbols, Germany should be no different. I hope in time Germany will be able to face more of their prehistory without viewing it through the Romanization of the Third Reich. Taint doesn't have to exist due to misuse. :bloodofox: 16:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trollkors

This article currently contains a section regarding the obscure trollkors or troll cross symbol. However, reading more into the subject, finding that most of the information is in Scandinavian text and subsequently editing the section further, I have a few questions regarding the inclusion of the symbol here.

  1. How old is this symbol?
  2. Are we just associating the geometry of the symbol with the odal rune? If not, how and where are we deriving this association from?

As it stands, it seems to me like there is a great posibility that this symbol may require a page of its own and that it may not be as closely related to the odal rune as this page would attest. However, this depends a great deal on the age of the symbol itself. --:bloodofox: 02:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The troll cross is probably very old. Here and here you can see Iron Age objects that look very much like the troll cross, at the Swedish Museum of National Antiquities.--Berig 00:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, those links don't seem to work. :bloodofox: 16:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Young BNP

Whether or not you would define it as neo-nazism or fascism, shouldn't the Young BNP still get a mention? It is still used as their symbol, really. NaiveAmoeba 19:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see why not - as long as we keep the neutral descriptor. :bloodofox: 16:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

As a member of the BNP myself I can say that the symbol isn't use as a means of promoting Nazism or white supremacy. It is used to symbolise our heritage as European people, nothing more. The whole notion that this symbol is used with racist connotations is appalling, the young BNP shouldn't be mentioned along side the Nazism references.(Unregestered user)

The Odal rune is also in use by the right wing white supremacy Boeremag group in South Africa ( http://www.iss.co.za/Pubs/Monographs/No81/Chap4.html ). Members of this group are currently under investigation for terrorist acts (http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=296347&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/ )in South Africa.

[edit] Rune and inheritance

I don't understand the current opening, which reads:

The Elder Futhark Odal rune (ᛟ) represents the o sound. Its reconstructed Proto-Germanic name is *ôþalan. The corresponding Gothic letter is 𐍉 o, called oþal.

So far, so good.

Odal was a concept of inheritance in ancient Scandinavian property law. Some of these laws are still in effect today, and govern Norwegian property.

Wait a second! What is the relationship between the rune (an element of a writing system) and the "concept of inheritance"? Was the rune used not only phonetically, to write the sound [o], but also logographically, to represent the word 'odal' = inheritance? And why is the article mentioning modern Norwegian property law, even if it descends from "ancient Scandinavian property law"? It's as though the article on the letter 'z' said that 'zzz' referred to sleep, and then started discussing sleep! I'm confused.

Later, the article says "The Odal rune is often associated with property and inheritance, wealth and prosperity." In what way is it "associated" with property? Is this just a pun on the name? Is it used as a symbol for property? Is it used as an abbreviation for the word 'odal' (= property/inheritance/etc.)? --Macrakis (talk) 03:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The opening is pretty garbled and does need some sources. I'll restructure the article a bit and tag the section. I can tell you that this association with property can be seen in the Anglo-Saxon rune poem as presented here, for example. However, this could use some more fleshing out too. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The idea of the rune being used to refer to the concept is rather well established in the literature. Take a look at Ring of Pietroassa for an example of runic interpretation assuming exactly this kind of use as a frame of reference. Aryaman (Enlist!) 19:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)