Talk:Octopus card

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Featured article star Octopus card is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 13, 2005.
This article was the selected article of the China Portal in October 2006.
To-do list for Octopus card: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Image of old student octopus card (purple one). If you have one, please click here and tell us.
  • Images of Octopus watches, Octopus key chains, and Octopus phone covers needed.
Priority 4  

Contents

[edit] USD

Unless someone can give a compelling reason -- I am going to remove all the USD equivalents in the article. If someone wants to know the exchange rate, they can go to the wiki for it. Currently having all the conversions just makes the article difficult to read.

[edit] Better picture

Can someone get a better picture eg no scratches?

[edit] Transmitted after hours?

"An Octopus card transaction is a store and forward transaction, meaning reader units do not need round-trip communications with a central database or computer. The stored data about the transaction is transmitted by network after hours, or retrieved by a clearing device (usually a Pocket PC). The data is then sent to the Octopus Central Database."

I really want to question that. Even though it is a store and forward transaction, I have question on whether it is transmitted by network after hours. Can someone vertify that?

(As I know, mobile readers (i.e. on buses), the driver console linked to the reader has an antenna that can relay information.)

To my knowledge, not all bus readers have antennas, and I've never heard of them being used for any wide area network communications. The Octopus system was designed specifically so "online" transactions are not needed, and would use a clearing house to settle funds after the fact. Perhaps the wording can be changed to "usually after hours" or "at a later time." An illustration of the network at use for MTR is at [1] and clearly shows the use of a frame relay network. Fuzheado | Talk 03:18, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
On a radio program, I have heard that the stolen Octopus cards with AAVS takes 6-hours to be disabled. A manager from Octopus Cards was being grilled by the host on the fact that stolen cards still required 6 hours to disable (down from 2 days). The manager alluded to the fact because there are moving Octopus terminals (ie minibus, trams), they can't disable it immediately. She did not elaborate citing security reasons. That has led me to believe that the moving terminals get cleared at least every 6 hours, while MTR stations are constantly online. -21 Jan 2005

[edit] Name

As I'm sure you probably know, the word octopus has the prefix octo-, which is the Latin numerical prefix for 8. For the animal called an octopus, it makes sense because an octopus has 8 tentacles. But, why is this called an octopus card?? 66.245.70.118 01:42, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The English name is a pun (The Chinese name is not related to this). As a belief among Hong Kong people, it is believed that an octopus is able to grab many different things at the same time. This represents that the Octopus card can be used to pay different things. SYSS Mouse 03:36, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The use number 8 also in the Chinese name of octopus card. I think the name in Chinese means also "you can go everywhere" as number 8 in Chinese can also mean many or even infinite. --222.166.160.127 16:24, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The number 8 is also a pun for good fortune and sounds like 100, which helps support the above argument that the name (in Chinese) means that it can be used almost anywhere. king 05:53, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I made an addition to the article that explains the name. --Umofomia 11:45, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if it's just my experience, but my mother commonly refers to the Octopus card as an 'Autopass'. It is not unconveivable that this is another reason why the name has been chosen due to the likeness in sounds of the words Octopus and Autopass, but unless someone backs me up here, I'm not going to recommend adding that into the article.Doctor Moley 17:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article contains internal contradictions

The section 'Operation' states:

An Octopus card transaction is a store and forward transaction, meaning reader units do not need round-trip communications with a central database or computer. The stored data about the transaction is transmitted by network after hours, or retrieved by a clearing device (usually a Pocket PC). The data is then sent to the Octopus Central Database. Incorporated in 1993, Creative Star Limited (CSL), is a private company that settles accounts between the Octopus system and the operators/merchants. Because of this settlement function, CSL has a deposit-taking licence by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA).

whilst the section 'Technology' states:

To communicate transaction information, transit stations have local area networks that connect the various components that deal with Octopus cards - turnstiles, add-value machines, analyzers and customer service terminals. These are connected to the MTRC's Kowloon bay headquarters through a frame relay wide area network. From here, all financial transactions are managed as different service providers relay their daily transction information regarding purchases, usage statistics and added value.

These statements are contradictary in two ways:

  • The first indicates clearance is undertaken by CSL, whilst the second indicates it is done by MTRC. From a logical perspective, the former seems more likely if only because of the commercial implications of MTRC processing transaction for other transport operators who are to a certain extent its competitors. But logic isn't everything; the second may just be true.
  • The first indicates a non-realtime store and forward mechanism, with a variety of transmission options including hand-carried pocket PCs. The second indicates use of a specific networking solution only, without indicating whether realtime or not. Again, the former seems the more likely, if only because of the need to connect mobile readers on buses etc., but the latter is still possible.

Another possibility is that the first may be the generic case, and the second the specific implementation of that generic case by the MTRC for its transactions only. But again that isn't what is written, and my thoughts are just a surmise.

For these reasons, I'm adding the contradict tag to this article until the original authors (or someone else) can resolve their contradictions. -- Chris j wood 16:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good observation, but it's not contradictory. Part of the reason why it may sound that way is because there are many different cases of how Octopus transactions are cleared. The second case describes transit/subway stations, where the readers are permanently fixed and are easily networked. The first is the case more for buses and standalone readers. So perhaps the first case there should be some examples of why a PocketPC would be needed. (See above comment for more...) Fuzheado | Talk 08:44, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think Fuzheado has confirmed my suspicion (last but one para in my original comments) that the section on 'Technology' is actually describing one particular case (MTR's fixed reader network) rather than the general case. But, that isn't what the article currently says. I'll have a go at rewording so it does. -- Chris j wood 13:42, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've made some changes to reflect Fuzheado's comments (I hope) and removed the contradictary tag. -- Chris j wood 14:01, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Refer to [2]. --JuntungWu 04:31, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unusual article

Why would anyone would put this as an Wikipedia:Unusual articles? Does someone treat this thing as something which belongs to the sci-fi future (based on its use)?

Above comment from User: SYSS Mouse. JuntungWu 18:00, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I definitely can't fathom why it's there. Most articles on that list have a certain jocular 'flavour'; this one certainly does not. Radagast 14:22, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Privacy and encryption

From the article:

The Octopus card uses strong encryption for all airborne communication and it uses two-way authentication based on public key infrastructure. In other words, data communications to and from the card is only established when mutually authenticated security handshaking is verified followed by transfer of encrypted data.

Has anyone got more details on this? I couldn't find any after a little Googling. I'd like to check whether it really does use "strong encryption": it's quite possible that, for example, details of the security mechanisms haven't been made public, and hence it's not generally known whether the encryption is strong or not (besides the claims of the manufacturers). — Matt Crypto 00:09, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is a great idea, even though it does have a few obvious kinks to work out of it. Sweetfreek 05:06, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I doubt the card uses strong encryption. As far as I can tell it is powered from the reader meaning that it can't do much computation and probably uses quite small keys. Here is a related story about a car key RFID chip that was cracked. It used 40 bit keys.

The Sony FeliCa website says that the card uses 3DES encryption. No word on key sizes though, but it does say that "the RC-S860 is the first contactless IC card obtaining EAL4 certification of ISO/IEC 15408 that is the most reliable measure of security level for smart cards worldwide". Plop 16:07, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oyster Card

Is this related to the Oyster Card used in London (or as is more likely, vice versa)? If so, should there be a note to that effect on this page? Notcarlos 00:26, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The RF technology looks similar, although the Oyster cards track _everything_ on a central database, and are not anonymous - raising significant privacy concerns. 194.106.59.2 14:04, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Many Oyster cards are anonymous, pay a £3 deposit and get a pay as you go Oyster card, you don't have to register and you can top up anonymously. You can even add weekly travel passes to it.

[edit] How do they know if you payed a fare?

In every city the way you enter the bus is somewhat different, but in most cases you can enter in any of doors. So how it works here? You go in, wave your card toward the sensor... and what then? Do you get a paper ticket then, or not? How controllers know whether all comuters payed a fare? Do they check comuter's card with some redear to see if comuter made a transaction in respective bus? I would really like to know this detail, and IMHO it should be added to the article. Kudos for good article.

Answer: If you pay the fare successfully thru touching the sensor, you get a green light and "doot" sound. The bus driver learns this as well from his panel. Notice that passangers can only get in the bus from the front door, but not the rear door.

For most bus routes in Hong Kong, say, if points A and C are terminuses at two ends, travelling from A to B cost you the full fare, and no one cares where you actually get off. There may be a sectional fare from B to C, or from B to A tho. — Instantnood 16:19, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so you get on a bus or train, or whatever, swipe your card and hear the beep, or doot, or whatever it is, but how does it know how much to charge you? How does it know where you're getting off? Do you swipe when you get off too?

Answer: On train stations you have turnstiles at entry and exit. You open the turnstile by the octopus card. In buses you use the card when you get on the bus. With trains you use the card twice - on entry and exit. That way you pay only for the way travelled. If you travel around and arrive at the same station you entered, a small charge is withdrawn anyway.

The reader will charge the full fare by default. If you want to (and if the bus route allows it), you may pay for only partial fare if you're going from A to B rather than A to C via B (full fare). What you need to do is tell the driver who will press a button which will enable the smaller fare and then you put your card onto the reader. Whether you get off at the right stop is up to you - although I've only seen this option on the smaller minibuses where there is only one door anyway.

Never really seen anyone use that minibus option for reducing the fare, but most buses in the world operate on only a single one-time fare, (with the exception of Singapore) so I'm not really sure what the question is for buses. Regarding trains, all rail transit in Hong Kong requires swiping the card at entry and exit gates in stations. You are charged by distance traveled. Herenthere (Talk) 22:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

I've watched this article mature and have been hoping that it would achieve "Featured Article" status. Thanks for all of your good and diligent work on a subject that I had never even heard of before. But isn't that what its all about? hydnjo talk 22:22, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

PS; I didn't realize all the crazies that this page's prominence would attract!!! Thanks to all y'all patrollers out there. hydnjo talk 23:09, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have just read this article for the first time and I must say, it was very informative and not at all boring. It did repeat itself a bit here and there but I could see why that was done since the information being repeated was essential to the flow of the article overall. I wish we had something like this in the USA. I could see it becoming very popular in cities such as NYC and SF that have several different forms of public transit. When I lived in NYC, I used to take a bus to the Staten island Ferry to a subway and then sometimes on to Amtrak or Metro North depending upon my schedule. We didn't have EZPass (EasyPass?) then but even now EZPass is limited in usage. It's not as universal as Octopus. I love that a transit card has widened in usage to include fast food and convenience stores. .........Great Job on the article!172.161.31.245 12:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Octopus is Welcome

I don't know if this picture is useful, but I thought I would upload it and see if you wanted to use it. I took it at the terminal in Hong Kong to the Cheung Chau ferry in February 2001.

Image:Octopus is Welcome.jpg

-- Dominus 03:55, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That would make a BJAODN.
*throws an octopus to Dominus as proof of payment*
*the octopus sprays ink onto Dominus*SYSS Mouse 20:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] using octopus card to buy insurance

Now, an insurance company has launched a service that travel insurance to China can be bought with the Octopus Card.

An travel insurance can be made with 'an insurace machine' at KCR station. You can choose the distination(s) that you are going to, then pay of fee of the travel insurance with Octopus Card.

Because most and most people in Hong Kong work in China, and most of the travellers go to China through KCR stations, the insurance machine makes them buy insurance easily before the trip.


[edit] correction to article

The following was removed because it is incorrect. "this feature is implemented to allow cardholders to use a card with an insufficient value to make one last trip — even if the balance on the card is only at, say, HK$0.10 (the maximum cost of a trip on any of the rail networks is HK$34.8, for a trip from East Tsim Sha Tsui (KCRC) in Kowloon to Lo Wu (KCRC) on the border with Shenzen)."

The maximum cost of a trip on any of the rail networks is HK$100, for a trip from Hong Kong Station on Hong Kong Island to the Airport (I imagine this will change when the AsiaWorld Expo station opens). Yes, it is a special line, but it is still a "rail network". Even without the considering the Airport Express, the most expensive standard "rail network" trip would be from East Tsim Sha Tsui to Lo Wu in First Class at a cost of HK$69.6.

Will (218.102.131.11 16:34, September 25, 2005 (UTC))

Do you have a reference for this? Enochlau 09:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Right. One cannot take a trip which costs more than $35.10. The maximum negative balance allowed is $35.00. — Instantnood 10:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I suggest a revert is in order. Any comments from Will? Enochlau 11:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Well... actually done. :-) — Instantnood 07:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The Octopus Card was there before Airport Express, IIRC, and the $35 most likely referred to a (non-first class) ride from Hung Hom to Lo Wu (this $35 limit would have likely to have been much greater if the Octopus came after the Airport Express), which would have been the costliest single rail transaction at the time (first class excluded). I'm not sure if you could pay first class by Octopus when it was introduced onto the East Rail. kelvSYC 14:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language preferences?

On a recent trip to Hong Kong this summer with my boyfriend who isn't Chinese, I noticed that when swiping our octopus cards we'd get messages (how much was subtracted/how much left etc) in different languages. Also, when we add value at a machine his card would always come up with English menu and mine would be in Chinese. Does anyone know how this is accomplished? I also remember one of our cards being the standard "adult yellow" and the other a rainbow colour so that might be significant.

Also, we got our cards at an Information desk in the main lobby of the airport. It was kind of hard to find. We tried going to the bus terminal people but they don't sell them (like the article mentions, they're at MTR stations).

They set the card language setting when you buy your card, depending on which language you used to ask for an Octopus card. Plop 16:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fantastic article!

Just wanted everyone to know that this is a fantastic article about an obscure subject! Who knew you could write so much about an electronic card! Great job! Ryan Norton T | @ | C 09:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Language implications of Octopus Card

Not sure if this is the correct way of engaging in this process, but here it goes:

One of the more interesting aspects of the quick and widespread adoption of the Octopus card in Hong Kong is how it became part of the Cantonese language. As the article indicates, when one uses the card, it makes an audible sound, that to the ears of the people in Hong Kong, sounds like, "doot." Fairly soon after its introduction in 1997, people started referring to the card informally as a "doot." For example, people might ask you if you have an Octopus card by saying, "Neih yau mo doot?"

The word is also used as a verb. To "doot" means to swipe the card over the reader. So, a person may indicate to a friend that they have swiped their Octopus card over the reader by saying, "Ngoh doot jo le."

I know this information first hand from living in Hong Kong from 1994-1998 and then returning there several times since then.

The word has even been used in octopus commercials in Hong Kong, with the English slogan for the octopus rewards program being "DooD n' Gain". It's also mentioned here at the batgung website. --Denmise 07:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

This section spoils the whole article, does the wiki section on cash also cover this concern for children buying junk food since until cash is put on the Octopus card it cannot be spent. Surely the issue is the junk food not whether they use cash or Octopus to pay for it. Suggest deleting the lot to stop it spoiling a very good wiki.

The entire criticism section is clearly POV. It cites no sources for the claims, sounding like a personal interpretation of the system.

As Octopus cards have become popular, some problems have arisen. Children may use their own value-stored cards to buy drinks, food and various others items by themselves. Some people think that the easy-to-use cards may reduce children's self-control in financial matters.

It´s nonsense, because children could always buy such things before, only with ordinary money. In fact, finantial self-control will mature as children get used to the cards (be it octopus or credit cards). This may not be true for the (we) "grown-ups" learning to deal with new technology. The other sentence is even worse:

In addition it has been argued that the acceptance of Octopus cards in convenience stores makes it easier for people, especially children, to make unhealthy purchases, such as junk food. As McDonald's joined the Octopus Rewards scheme, the problem will more or less worsen.

It sounds just like anti-junky-food advertising, and pseudo-pro health: instead of educating the children to have healthier habits (what can be done if the parents themselves have healthier habits) we bash the "junky/fast-food", and try to prevent children from being able to get their hands on the food, turning it into something immensely desireable just because it´s prohibited (that´s human nature!). I think this section should be rephrased, perhaps citing the sources for those critics (if they exists, then even finding them to be nonsense, I would gladly stop critizing the criticism section :-) ). Overall the article is really great. Loudenvier 12:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Actually it is the first time for me to hear such so called criticisms. I would suggest deleteing the whole section instead of rephrasing. --Spring Dennis 06:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Whole section has been deleted otherwise will need to remove the star from the top of the page saying this is one of the best wikis.

[edit] Inline citations

I think this article could do with some inline citations. Skinnyweed 14:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Octopus Bleep?

I'm referring to the use of this term in this sentence:

After a brief moment (about 0.3 seconds per transaction) the reader will acknowledge payment by emitting the "Octopus Bleep", and the reader will display the amount deducted and the remaining balance of the card.

Where does this term originate? I checked online and could not find it mentioned anywhere outside of Wikipedia and Wikipedia mirrors. Isn't the more common description of the sound "doot" (or sometimes "beet")? —Umofomia 04:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a beep is not very descriptive at all times. Sometimes the reader will sound differently depending on the fare deducted, e.g. "do-do" for same day return discount on buses, and "du-do-du" for MTR concessionary fare travellers. -- LR4087 06:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High quality images needed

It would be of great help if anyone living in Hong Kong could get hold of a digital camera and snap a high quality image of the following, which may be very useful for the article.

  • Better images of all different types of cards, including child and elder cards
  • Better images of wall mounted readers (At stations) and custom mounted on buses and also for access control
  • Images of outlets selling those cards, say 7-Eleven or the likes of such places

Cheers. -- Chez (Discuss / Email) 01:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whip this article back to FA status?

Shall we try to whip this article back into FA class? Here is the Featured article review discussion that removed the FA status. The primary source of problem seems to be poor writing style. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 22:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Temporarily putting text here

I've shortened the intro and deleted this text below. I'm saving it here until a better place is found to put the information.

In addition, the system is used for access control to offices, schools and apartments. Some charities even accept Octopus cards for donations. Cards can be recharged with cash at add-value machines in subway and rail stations, over-the-counter in stores such as 7-Eleven, Wellcome, and Circle K, or directly through credit cards and bank accounts.
Octopus has become one of the world's most successful electronic cash systems, with over 14 million Octopus cards in circulation (twice Hong Kong's population), ten million transactions per day, 420 service vendors, and 50,000 processors.[1] The operator of the Octopus system, Octopus Cards Limited, is a joint venture between MTR Corporation and other transport providers in Hong Kong namly Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation (KCRC), Kowloon Motor Bus (KMB), Citybus and New World First Bus Services Limited (NWFB). Octopus's international arm, Octopus Knowledge Limited, has won a contract to export Octopus-style systems to the Netherlands.

Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, with the current revision, I don't think we need to add that specific text back into the intro. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation for discontinued purple student card

Does anybody have a source for the purple student card being discontinued? Personal knowledge of this isn't exactly good enough. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed for Personalised cards section

Citation needed for:

  1. As of 2003, there were 380,000 holders of personalised Octopus cards. (Or alternatively, a more updated figure would be even better, with reference, of course.)
  2. In addition to all the functions of an ordinary card, this card can be used as a key card for access to some residential and office buildings.
  3. According to Octopus Cards Limited, City University of Hong Kong and more than 50 secondary schools in Hong Kong use the Octopus card to record the attendance of students, in lieu of roll calls, and to manage library books.

Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 06:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I've struck out those that I've found sources for. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Future Developments

Do we really need that line on how Octopus use might reduce taxi driver income because of there being no method for tacking on a tip? Tipping is not an Asian custom, so the answer is pretty much: no, it won't reduce taxi driver income. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.178.189 (talk • contribs) 2007-02-26 02:50:39

I'm Asian, and I always tip the taxi drivers in HK. I tip a whole bunch of other people who provide individual services, too, like the barber and the guy that fixes/installs the cable. It was my father, another Asian, that taught me to tip often and tip well. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Moreover it seems to be standard practice for taxi drivers to round up the fare to the nearest dollar or 50 cents. It's not exactly a tip, just the accepted way. These extra cents can add up to quite a few dollars over a day's work and would disappear with Octopus payments.Paul Christensen (Hong Kong) 05:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, I've since taken out the statement about tipping because I couldn't find sources for it. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Um... There are quite a number of images here, but if we have put all the images on the side, it would be quite cumbersome and sometimes blocking some text. Therefore I suggest we start a new section "Gallery" and put some not-so-related-to-the-text or not-so-important Octopus card / readers photos over there. Perhaps that would be more flexible in adding pictures by not overcrowding them in the text. That would also enable us to categorize them easily. - LR4087 17:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Great! I like it. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Galleries should be used sparingly on Wikipedia articles, unless they really add to the article. The recommended approach is to create a Commons page with a gallery and link to that in external links. The article is quite long as it is, so I'm not sure it's a good idea. enochlau (talk) 23:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Octopus outside Hong Kong

I'm preparing to add a new section about Octopus card usage outside of Hong Kong, but I'm just starting to read more about that right now. To the best of my knowledge, there is limited usage in Macau and Shenzhen, and Octopus Cards Limited is also developing a similar system in Changsha (called Easy Card) and the Netherlands. Does anybody know if there are any other places outside of Hong Kong where Octopus cards are used or that Octopus Cards Limited is developing a similar system? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've added the new section. But I only wrote about Macau and Guangzhou. In 2003, Octopus Cards Limited won contracts to implement similar systems in both Changsha and in the Netherlands. So far I can't seem to find news on the progress of these two projects. The system in the Netherlands is supposed to be rolled out at the end of 2007, so maybe there will be more news near the end of the year. As for Changsha, well, news of this project seemed to have completely disappeared. The target launch of the system was supposed to be in 2004, but I can't find any news about whether it actually launched or not, not even at the website of Octopus Cards Limited. So for now, the section does not make mention of either Changsha or Netherlands. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help find citations

The article has now been substantially cleaned up and I'd like to nominate it for GA status, and then eventually push it back to FA status. But before we do this, a few citations need to be found that I was unable to find.

  • There was also another category of On-Loan cards, a violet-coloured Octopus card for students, that is now discontinued. (I know from personal experience that this is true, but I couldn't find any sources to use.)
  • As of 2003, there were 380,000 holders of Personalised Octopus cards.
  • These limited-edition cards are becoming collectibles, with the rarest, probably an Andy Lau tour card, being worth many thousands of Hong Kong dollars.
  • A higher pitched sound will be emitted if the card is not accepted, in the event that the stored value is insufficient to handle the requested transaction, or if the reader is unable to read the card owing to interference or because insufficient time is given for the reader to scan the card. (Again, I know this is true from personal experience, but I couldn't find any sources.)
  • Other public transport operators also offer discounts, usually 10%, for using Octopus cards on higher fares and round-trip transits.
  • The maximum cost of a trip on any of the rail networks except the Airport Express and first class of the KCR East Rail is HK$34.8.
  • Operations, maintenance and development was undertaken by Octopus Cards Limited, and in 2005, it replaced the central transaction clearing house with its own system.
  • According to HKMA, HK$416 million (US$53.3 million) is deposited in the Octopus system at any given time as of 2000.

If sources for these statements are not found in a week or two, I'll be removing or modifying them. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure the Student Octopus Cards have been discontinued? During the course of my reseearch for finding a reference, I came along some pages that document the current existence of the Student Octopus card, albeit there is no mention that they are violet in colour. See [3] , [4] and [5]. Luke! 06:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The claim that 380,000 personalised cards have since been issued in 2003 has been referenced. So you can strike that one out. Luke! 06:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the ref for the number of Personalised card holders. As for the Student card, take a look at this[6]. That page lists four different cards with different colours. There used to be another type of card altogether specifically for students, but it has been discontinued. There's actually a picture of the card on the Chinese version of this article, but as with many articles on Chinese WP, it's lacking in sources and there's no source to confirm for the benefit of readers that the card was discontinued. The student Octopus card that you're reading about is actually a Personalised card (the rainbow coloured card) that's been given "student status". This information is covered in the current version of the article. To the best of my knowledge, the old student card and the current Personalised card with "student status" effectively function the same way. I think they basically started requiring students to use Personalised cards now to get student discounts because students' Octopus cards are now able to serve a variety of functions related to school activities, like checking books out. And by the way, speaking of the Chinese version of the article, it would be great if someone can figure out how to get this picture either onto commons or onto English WP. It looks like the picture is copyrighted and I don't know how it lasted on the Chinese WP server so long, but it would probably be deleted within a day here on English WP or on commons if I can't provide a source or free alternative. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 07:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
It's actually easy to create an image of a Student on-loan Octopus Card. If you happen to have 1, place it on a white piece of paper and carefully take a photograph of it. Then crop the image and upload it to Wikipedia, with an "my own work" copyright notice. Then it should be accepted.--Kylohk 14:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not the old blue/violet student card that we need a picture of. I don't think we need to list it in the table because it's been discontinued. But we do need a picture of the elder card, and I don't have one, nor do I have access to one either. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I understand. To get a picture of an Elder card, go to an MTR station, at the customer service center or the ticket price list, there should be a poster showing the different types of octopus cards available. Carefully take a picture of that poster, and cut the elder card image out as a separate file and submit it to Wikipedia.--Kylohk 08:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've struck out the line about maximum fare, since I have linked the fare tables for both the MTR and KCR, and this verfies the maximum fare to be $34.8. I have also found an old archived NWFB article about the usage of Same Day Return discounts for long distance cross harbour routes.--Kylohk 13:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've found a german article about the deposit amount in Octopus Cards as in 2000.--Kylohk 14:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I've deleted the last three items that we couldn't find references for, and I've nominated the article for GA status. Please re-insert the statements I deleted if sources are found for them. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prices are cited but how to keep them updated?

Very informative article! But with all the prices of the various cards listed, how can we ensure they are updated? It may be better if the actual monetary prices are left out. Vikkileung 21:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

We'll basically need editors to update the article when necessary. Card prices are not the only thing that'll need periodic updates - as you know, Octopus is constantly expanding their business and usage. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The price for the card itself did not change since introduction - HK$ 50. Which is a deposit, returnable when you return the card.

One application of the card is missing - swimming pools. Many entry systems in Hong Kong operate with turnstiles, that need to be fed cash - no change given. Using the octopus card resolves the need to collect and carry great amount of coins, which can be quite heavy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.213.65.214 (talk) 16:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of May 28, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Yes. Move the History section to #1.
2. Factually accurate?: Looks good.
3. Broad in coverage?: Yes. There seems to be a lot of focus on pricing details. Is this information actually useful to the average reader? The article does not present any criticism/controversy/drawbacks of the Octopus card system. In places that use Octopus cards for other purposes, such as school attendance as mentioned in the article, how would they deal with someone who doesn't have a card?
4. Neutral point of view?: Yes, but as mentioned above, there aren't any alternate viewpoints offered. This is fine if they're negligible.
5. Article stability? Stable.
6. Images?: Good. The image licensing for the gold card at the top of the page does not match the license given for the rainbow and pink ones. Please correct this. Consider adding an image of an alternate form of the Octopus card under the 'Alternate forms' section, and a picture of the green elder card, in the future.

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — Carson 23:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing the article. Let me try to address the points that need addressing:
1. History section has been moved up to the top[7].
3. Which section do you think has too much information on pricing? In the "Adding value and refunding" section, there is a lot of information on pricing, but I would think pricing is an inherent topic for that section. Cutting pricing info down would basically be the same as shortening the content of that section.
4. Most of the existing references currently in the article was found by me. Unfortunately, I was not able to find any sources for criticism of the Octopus card system. But take a look at the "Taxis" section, it discusses how the system has not been successfully adopted for usage in taxis in Hong Kong.
6. As far as the picture of the gold card is concerned, unfortunately I was not the creator of the work, so I cannot change the licensing from fair use to something else - although correct me if I'm wrong about that. However, I have asked the editor who took the photo and uploaded the picture to please upload the photo to Commons and give it the same licensing as the picture of the rainbow card[8]. Hopefully he'll respond, but it looks like he's not a very active editor. As for the pictures of the elder card and of the "alternatve" forms of Octopus cards, requests have been added to the To-Do list. Please take a look at the top of this Talk page and you'll see the To-Do list. As you've probably noticed, all of the pictures in this article were photos taken by editors and released for use in WP. We'll need to wait for people who are able to take these pictures and upload them before we'll have these pictures on the article. I hope that is not going to prevent this article from reaching GA.
Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Alrighty.
3. The pricing info can stay. I just felt that there were too many $s being mentioned, and that it gets very detailed. The average reader may not care about the intricacies of pricing. Asked previously: In places that use Octopus cards for other purposes, such as school attendance as mentioned in the article, how would they deal with someone who doesn't have a card? It's unlikely, but still interesting to know.
4. That's fine.
6. Also fine. It's not a show-stopper; they can be sorted out after reaching GA. Carson 22:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Let me do some more searching/reading to see what I can find out about what happens when someone doesn't have an Octopus card for stuff like school attendance. My guess is that having an Octopus card is not required and Octopus card usage is not the only way to do these things where Octopus card usage has been implemented. But I need to verify this with sources. I'll comment here again within a day or two. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there will be someone who have no Octopus Card in Hong Kong. Students who have no Octopus Card will only have to apply for one! In fact, there are some private estates in Hong Kong use Octopus card to ensure residents' identities. The no. of Octopus Card issued is even more than the total population of Hong Kong! Kfsung 13:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I think I've addressed two issues. I found an article that claims that "certain" office buildings, residential buildings, and schools require people to use Octopus cards for access[9]. In other words, if you don't have a card, you cannot get in. Also, concerning the licensing info for the gold-coloured Octopus card, I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but - I have this card right in my wallet, so I just took a picture of it and uploaded it to Commons, giving it the same licensing as the rainbow-coloured card and the pink-coloured card[10]. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Passed

Concerns addressed sufficiently. Congratulations! Carson 16:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! The first step to bringing this back to FA has been accomplished. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] photo of Möbius strip

User:Fuzheado has removed the picture of the Möbius strip from the article[11], commenting that it is extraneous. But I think it is helpful to illustrate to the readers what a Möbius strip is. If there's no object from anybody else, I would like to re-insert the image. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is an image of a Student Octopus Card needed for this article?

I found one of those discontinued Student Octopus Cards in my room today. Is it a good idea to scan it with a scanner so as to post it here? Also, I can borrow the Elderly octopus card from my grandma if possible.--Kylohk 13:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I think that would be great - but wait until the article passes FAC first, then add them. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing pair of sentences

This wasn't clear to me: "To redeem the accumulated reward dollars, cardholders must use the entire value amount in whole, and not partially. If the purchase price is lower than the amount of reward dollars available, the amount difference remains stored on the card."

If I have 5 reward dollars and buy something that costs 4.50, what happens? Do I have .50 reward dollars left to spend, or can I not make this purchase? Scott Ritchie 21:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You would have .50 reward dollars left. However, you cannot choose to use, for example, only 3 of your 5 reward dollars toward that 4.50 purchase. Everytime you use your reward dollars, you have to use the entire amount. I have tried to clarify the wording.[12] Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 06:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)