Talk:Octavio Paz

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[edit] Number of victims

Recently Jorge Castañeda published an article in the Mexican newspaper Reforma, “Los 68 del 68” in which he states that the victims killed in Tlateloco were certainly under a hundred.

If this is so, and I’m no expert in the subject, the statement “government's killing of hundreds of students” should be modified. ―Cesar Tort 04:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The typical number reported is in the hundreds; often around 300. See Tlatelolco massacre. --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 06:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That article has been pov tagged. I have lived in Mexico City for decades and Elena Poniatowska’s book on the massacre has been in my family library for a long, long time (in fact, I once met her personally).

I’ll quote a couple of Jorge Castañeda’s sentences:

"De acuerdo con el informe histórico, en la Plaza de las Tres Culturas murieron ―cabalísticamente― 68 estudiantes y un soldado […]". Y todo uso de la fuerza pública se empezó automáticamente a asimilar al 68, pero al 68 magnificado: al de los 500, no al de los 68. Todo uso de la fuerza se volvió una masacre en potencia […]" (Reforma, 30 August 2006).

See also this pdf document in English. ―Cesar Tort 07:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Did Fox's official summary ever get published? Do you have a link to the full article in the Reforma? Have there been responses that claim that the traditional numbers are accurate? It seems that there's a fair amount of current interest in the topic, and if this is what people are finding, then we need to update the article. --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 20:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

“Did Fox's official summary ever get published?”. The last newspaper note I read on the subject about three months ago said that Carrillo Puerto’s inform continues in Los Pinos (Mexico’s White House).

I searched in the Reforma web page and there seems to be no link to Castañeda’s article. If the editors of the Tlatelolco massacre become really interested, I will type it all.

IMO it'd be better to continue the discussion of the Tlatelolco toll in that article―Cesar Tort 20:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Since Paz died some years ago I wonder if a fairer photograph, where he looks younger (he seems to be in his late seventies in the present photo), might not be more appropriate in this article? --Cesar Tort 06:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that what we really need is a free image, such as one by the US government or one released by the author. Those can be tough to come by for people like this (semi-famous, non-government, and foreign). --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 06:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I will ask the Octavio Paz foundation here in Mexico City if they can send me one. (BTW, I added a brief comment on Paz in the Che Guevara article.) Cesar Tort 07:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Wikipedia:Requesting_copyright_permission and Wikipedia:Example requests for permission before you do. They need to release the image with a free license, such as the cc-by-sa-2.0. --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 12:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I’ve just talked over the phone with Paz’s widow about the photo. She is leaving Mexico City but she’ll be back in the second week of January. In another article I’ve already uploaded an image that Paul Kurtz’s secretary sent me. I guess I won’t have major problems? —Cesar Tort 16:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

That's awesome. However, as stated on WP:COPYREQ, we need confirmation from the copyright owner of any image that it is licensed freely (usually that means public domain or a creative commons license like the one I linked above). Usually this means getting the owner to send you an email explicitly stating that he releases the image with a free license (one that permits modification, redistribution, and use for any purpose, including commercial purposes). You would then forward that email to "permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org". If the Wikimedia foundation doesn't have that on record, we can't use the image, for legal reasons. The same thing applies to the Paul Kurtz image. It's complicated and annoying, unfortunately, but that's the way it is. Let me know if you need anything or have questions. The example letters on Wikipedia:Example requests for permission might be helpful. --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 17:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it enough if Paz’s widow’s secretary directly uploads the photo in Wikicommons? --Cesar Tort 18:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If s/he's the copyright owner (either the creator of the image or had the image rights granted to her), she can release it with the license herself. That's the easiest way, for sure, but sometimes people are a little nervous about creating an account and doing all the work themselves. --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 01:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)