Talk:Obraz
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As a member of the Centre for Research of Orthodox Monarchism I strongly object to describing CROM as a branch of Obraz. CROM was not founded by Nenad M. Jovanovic, but rather by Nebojsa M. Krstic. Nenad M. Jovanovic is a managing director of the CROM, and he is a FORMER member of Obraz. CROM is completely independent organisation that has nothing to do with Obraz, never had and never will.
As a former member of Obraz I also must object to some irregularities in your article. Serbian Police NEVER classified Obraz as "clero-fascist". The Police distributed the list of activities to the parliament of the northern province of Serbia (Vojvodina), and members of the parliament qualified those activities as "clero-fascist", but never legislated it. That was a political act, not legislative. As the Serbian Radical Party had won the recent elections in Serbia, we can expect the same thing to happen to those who qualified Obraz as "clero-fascistic". We can accept this as a legitimate way of fighting your political opponents but not as an academic method that should be applied here.
Also, Obraz was never involved in attacking Roman-Catholics nor Hungarians, except the neo-nazi Hungarian movement 64 Municipalities, which is openly promoting the destruction of Serbia and annexation of its northern provinces to Hungary, as well as celebrating the WWII nazi criminals who killed thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies in the parts of Serbia that were occupied by Hungary during WWII.
N. Mrdjenovic
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[edit] Nice try but we don't buy it
As I see it Mr. Krstic was also the founder of Obraz and your links and political message are that of Obraz. You are classified as clero-fascists not only by your own police but also by HRW, AI, EU, State Department and others. Organizations that carry more weight then your personal opinion. Your own site spread hatred against non-Orthodox, Jews, Hungarians and Catholics. Your friend Jovanovic claims in is his bio to have been a recruiter for the White Eagles, a para-military group responsible for the ethnic cleansings in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. You are a subdivision of Obraz, a Google showed up your name as an Obraz member in Australia so in my book you are deceiving people.
Obraz is all over your site, you talk about academics but I fail to see any academics in your logic. You are spreading a fascist agenda. Tell me, how many innocent people did the White Eagles kill? According to B92 Obraz organized demonstrations and disrupted a Catholic session, prosecuted Hungarians, Germans and Jews. Your own site calls us Americans “Zionists”. On your site you support hatred against minorities. It appears Obraz isn’t successful so now you spread out and call yourself with a different name, but a fascist is a fascist and changing your name wont help. You might fool people in Serbia, but in the US we are not that stupid.
I will undo the changes you made, and unless you can provide real organizations of importance that support your claim then you can undo it. But so far your organizations are listed as “clero-fascist” and I rather believe them.
- Nemanja S. Mrdjenovich your own bio page says the following: " In May 2003 he was one of the delegates on the Assembly of Obraz in Belgrade. And in August 2003 he moves to Sydney, Australia, where he formes a new branch of the Obraz Movement, where he was an active President till June 2006." Quote from your own bio page. Now you are a hardcore Obraz fan I would say.
ANY PROVES FOR THIS POLITICAL PAMPHLET, OR WE SHOULD TRUST YOU ONLY BECAUSE YOU CALL YOUR SELF AN AMERICAN?
In the article you are saying that Mr. Jovanovic is the founder of Obraz, not Mr. Krstic. The truth is a bit different. I am a former member of Obraz, and I will not discuss with you the reasons of my separation from the organisation. You are saying that a Serbian Police qualified Obraz as a “clero-fascist”, please show me the document that proves that claim!!! I can show you a newspaper article where Serbian Police is claiming it has nothing to do with it. You should know, even if you are an American, what is the difference between the Police and a Parliament of a province. Furthermore, I am sure you do, as you are a “Serbian American” (http://www.vojvodina.sr.gov.yu/). All the links that you have placed there are irrelevant, none of them has anything to do with Obraz, they are all referencing to the reports of the Belgrade based TV B92, and has the same attitude to the truth as CNN does (http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/vesti/vest.php?id=61096). Now, you being an American, as you claim, can find this shocking, but the rest of the world (including countries as Canada, UK, and Australia) does not trust neither CNN neither your State Department. Recent polls even show that people around the world don’t even like Americans, but that is a different topic (http://www.geopolitika.org.yu/index.php). Let us leave that a side for a moment. I can understand your political positions, and I can tolerate your disillusions, even in the “encyclopaedia”; but not the blatant lies, which you used to make this article a political pamphlet. You claim that my own web site spread hatred against the non-orthodox, Jews, Hungarians and Catholics,... please, show me the evidence. As you are referring to me, by my full name, you can be called for legal responsibilitie. My name is here because I don't have anything to hide, and false accusations for such serious crimes are defamation. Though, not a surprise in a conversation with Americans. If you are trying to apply that CROM web site is spreading hatred towards anybody, you can be called to answer for that too. Even as an American, you should be aware of that. Now, you are talking about ethnic-cleansing to a person who was driven away from his home (that was his family’s home for 7 generations) only because he was an ethnic Serb and an Orthodox Christian! Never mind that that home was only a few kilometres from the site of a notorious concentration camp “Jasenovatz” where Croatian government killed over 700 000 people. Mostly Serbs, around 20 000 Jews (all Jews of Croatia) some Gypsies and few thousands of Croats who raised their voice against the genocide over Serbs. I am sure you are aware what happened to a quarter of a million Serbs in Croatia, only a few years ago. Or maybe, you want a link to B92, to believe it really did happened (www.veritas.org.yu)? The White Eagles saved many lives in Croatia, at the time when a neo-nazi government of Croatia (the only neo-nazi state in the world, aside to neo-empirial government of USA) started to implement its politics of genocide, which were backed by the U.S. government. (http://www.vecernji-list.hr/newsroom/news/croatia/720313/index.do)
“Obraz is all over your site”. Ok, if this is true, give me one link from CROM web site to Obraz web site? Even if we were a close organisations, which we are not as Obraz is a political movement and CROM is an institution that has nothing to do with day-to-day politics, it is a blatant lie and an insult to call CROM “a branch of Obraz”. Why didn’t you read what is written on the Obraz web site about Mr. Jovanovic’s membership in Obraz? (www.srb-obraz.org.yu/aktivnosti/saopstenja/kurir.htm) You red my bio, so why do you ignore the facts that you refer to? (http://www.czipm.org/bio-06e.html) I am not a fan of Obraz, if I was I would still be a member. I am rather a fan of its original ideology. Ideology that has nothing to do with fascism, nor any other extremist movements. Its ideology was patriotism, but not the kind of patriotism which would be an excuse to bomb other countries for fun, or invade an-oil-rich country for alleged democracy implementation when the whole world knows what you are trying to do, but patriotism that means love your own and respect the others.
Again, you are accusing Obraz that it has prosecuted Hungarians, Germans and Catholics, and than you are referring to B92. Well if I would use your method, I could say any lie I want about the Jewish or American people, and than just quote some Iranian newspaper as a legitimate source. Or even your own news agencies that have more "leftie" attitude. Obraz never prosecuted anybody, and the only fight (political offcourse) Obraz had with Hungarians was with the Hungarian movement “64 Municipalities” which celebrated the day when Hungarians killed thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies in Novi Sad, during WWII. So again, Obraz was fighting against fascists!
The CROM web site did not call anybody “zionists”. If you are referring to Obraz web site, you should know that it is not my web site, nor am I a member of Obraz, as you saw in my bio. BTW, yes, a vast majority of Americans is under the “zionist” influence. Mostly through media brainwash, and your poor elementary and highschool education system. That can also be a shock for you, as CNN still hadn't reported it.(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCkYfYa8ePI&eurl=) None of the organisations that I ever was a member never attacked any minorities. That would be crazy even to think of, knowing that I always was a minority, and as such I was prosecuted, my life was endangered, and I was driven of from my home country. If you can’t prove it, don’t spread your lies.
You are claiming as “we” could fool the people of Serbia, but Americans are “not that stupid”. First of all, who is “we”, second of all your claim is racist as you are calling the whole country stupid, and third of all, you as an American should be ashamed even to talk about intelligence, if you had any. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCkYfYa8ePI&eurl=)
In the end, this article is full of lies, such as a claim that Obraz wants to have a government that is run by ethnic Serbs. That is a blatant lie, and no one who was ever a member of Obraz wanted that. How would you react to a fact that Obraz is a monarchist movement and we all know that the future king is not an “ethic Serb”. Can you see how stupid your lies are? (http://www.royalfamily.org/family/hrhcpa_bio.htm) Second of all, you are saying that the term Shiptar is derogative term for Albanians, well can you explain why is Wikipedia using the same term then and in the article “Albania” calling it “Republika e Shqipërisë”? Is Wikipedia a fascist toll, or it's just you? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania)
Most important of all, CROM is not a branch of Obraz, never was never will be. (http://www.czipm.org/o_nama.html)
You seem amassed with what google can find. Offcourse it can, it’s because I don’t have anything to hide and my bio is on the net. You should use google more often; maybe you would not make so many mistakes, that is, if you are not making them on purpose.
Interesting what Google finds dont you think??
The Patriot —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The patriot2007 (talk • contribs) 08:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Stop defacing my posts
Dude stop editing and defacing my posts. Create your own topic or post your reply after my post because this is lame.
The information I get are from well respected NGO's that are even critical of my own country's policy on Guantanamo Bay etc. O dude I dont want to break your heart but I am not a Serb, not even close so stop with implying things. Did you actually read any of the links. People before me posted these links and I read through them, HRW, AI post about Obraz. Did you read what it said?
So now you are threatening me?? You posted with your full name here. And that is your own fault not mine so don't you threathen me, that is just wrong. [1] You signed saying you are a member of that CROM and Google does the rest, that is your own responsibility and not mine. You admit your own site is linked on soo many ways to Obraz and Obraz their website is spreading hate. That is what I said, so dont twist my words. If you are no longer affiliated with Obraz then show it by not supporting their agenda thrue links etc. You have to admit that from an outsiders POV it looks very very strange. BTW, the Serbian Interior Ministry made that statement not just B92 so says the link of the EU High Commisioner.
Listen I am man enough to admit I am making mistakes. If you can proof with valid, legit and real sources that I am wrong then I apologize and you can edit the article.(no youtube) No harm done, thats Wikipedia for you. But otherwise the facts speak for themselves, and those are not my words so go after HRW and AI. The patriot2007
- Ok this is what I did, giving you the benefit of the doubt. I removed your CROM as a branch, I agree that there is some doubt there and since I do not read Serbian I leave that to the previous posters that do read it. As for the rest of the article, all of it are quotes from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International etc., so I am not going to edit that because those are theirsand not mine. I changed some things here and there to restore it to what it was before I joined into this discussion. It is more based on facts and I removed any "personal" centences from mine. So other users can contribute and I am done here.
[edit] Branching and such
Uhm forgive me for the intrusion. The press releases from the Serbian government about Obraz are clear so that is a no brainer! However linking the Royal House of Serbia or one of the princes to this is incorrect. The Royal House of Serbia is not engaged in politics like this and I agree with the previous speaker that there is no link. So lets keep the article about Obraz. If there are doubts go see the official site of HRH Karadjordjevic at www.royalfamily.org. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.207.239.20 (talk) 10:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Media does not spport Obraz
Most of Serbian media does not support and did not support Obraz. In your article you are presenting as if most Serbian media support this organization, which you justifily identified as an anti-semitic, anti-democratic, shovinist and pro fascist organization. However, quoting one daily (Glas Javnosti) and few articles from 2001 which criticized report of Helsinki Committee on anti-semitism as proof of wide support for Obraz, is totally wrong and is, in fact, falsifying the truth. In this passage you quoted my name and presnted as if I was supporting Obraz, which was never the truth. In my articles in 2001 I have criticized Helsinki Committee for overestimating the significance of anti-semitism in Serbia in their report. As a Jew living in Serbia I felt that this was abuse of Jews in activity of Helsinki Committee which was politically motivated at that time (to represent in that time 2001 that main streem policies of Serbian political elites has not changed much from Milosveic era). In 2001 as is now Obraz is by all standards a marginal organization, and it was wrong from Helsinki Committee to represent activity and ideology of such organization as a main stream politics of the Serbian society, and that was the main agument in my articles. My views on politics of Obraz and similar organizations are best expressed in many articles published in 2001 - 2005 on need for Serbian society to be engaged in truth and reconcilation process and need for Serbia to recognize independence of Kosovo. Aleksandar Lojpur —Preceding unsigned comment added by ALojpur (talk • contribs) 06:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
