Talk:Objections to evolution

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To-do list for Objections to evolution:

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Here are some tasks you can do: Cleanup: Bottom sections of article, references, redundancies Fix percentages on very bottom of article so both parts total to 100% Expand: Evolution's evidence is unreliable or inconsistent Evolution cannot create information Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics Evolution says that humans are no better than animals Evolution leads to immorality and social ills Evolution leads to atheism NPOV: Purge any POVish tone, whether pro- or anti-evolution Other: Consider other major objections as possible sections, such as "evolution presupposes..." arguments (currently discussed briefly under "Evolution is unfalsifiable"). Discuss possible alternative section schemes, particularly to remedy ambiguity in "Objections to evolution's plausibility" and "Objections to evolution's possibility" oversections.

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January 2007 – May 2007 May 2007 – October 2007 October 2007 – January 2008

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Contents 1 Two versions of the Evolution Cannot Create Information argument 2 Bias 3 Main mechanism by/in the 30s 4 POV 5 Entropy Additions 6 Proving the Objections false 7 Hitler belived in Evolution 8 Dubious 9 More Bias 10 Problems 11 Most Christians

[edit] Two versions of the Evolution Cannot Create Information argument

There are two different versions of this argument. One claims there are nop known processes that can increase the amount of data in a chromosome, that the number of nucleotides in DNA should have remained stable since the origins of life. Responses to this arguments include chromosome duplication errors (such as in Down syndrome), viral transfers, etc. The other version claims that the amount of INFORMATION (not data) in the chromosomes cannot increase by evolution. Arguments against this include those listed in the article, such as the effect of random mutations being filtered by the environment. I think the article should mention both. Herbys (talk) 03:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Find a significant source (ICR/AiG/etc) for the former claim (per WP:V) and we'll include it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Good stuff. Find some references, both creationist and anticreationist if possible, and we will run with it.--Filll (talk) 05:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

I am not trying to push anything but Wikipedia is not intended to be bias, this page is written in the voice that anti-evolutionary is a rare, radical and completely ludicrous cult. It is not, aproxximately half of the world believes that creationism is the origin of life and we do not have the write to feed theories as fact in a non-bias encyclopedia. I know this is one of the most offensive subjects known and its hard to write about without expressing opinion. For Wikipedia. Derek Yoda's friend (talk) 06:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Derek Yoda's friend. If you have a problem with a particular piece of the article, then feel free to bring it up - sources will be necessary to backup any suggestions or views contrary to what is already written. Until then, we can't really do much with "this article is biased, please fix it". You might also find the Evolution as theory and fact article helpful. Ben (talk) 08:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Derek Yoda's friend: this article is written giving WP:DUE weight to the expert opinion of the scientific consensus, which is that creationism lacks any scientific merit (e.g. see List of scientific societies rejecting intelligent design‎, which offers a list of scientific organisation rejecting Intelligent design, the most currently-fashionable form of creationism). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 09:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Find me sources. Thanks.--Filll (talk) 16:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I 100% agree with comment above that this article is completely biased for Evolution. If you want to leave the content the way it is then the title of the article MUST be changed to reflect the content, specifically, "Countering Objections to Evolution". Objections to Evolution should be strictly objections from those who object to the theory and not evolutionists themselves who want to give their own spin on each objection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.167.242.177 (talk) 05:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

What? This article isn't, as you suggest, a simple list of objections to evolution. The article is about objections to evolution. As an article, it should list, discuss and offer facts and expert views, to name a few things, regarding objections to evolution. If you're going to waste precious time making a comment on this page, the least you could do is make it useful. How about the next time you hit that edit button, you make a case for your accusation of bias? If you're only here to whine, then your time is better spent elsewhere. Ben (talk) 05:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to go far to see the bias: "Many of the arguments against evolution have become widespread, including objections to evolution's evidence, methodology, plausibility, morality, and scientific acceptance. However, these arguments are not accepted by the scientific community." How can you generalize the scientific community when just from the compiled lists I've seen, hundreds of scientists have one form of objection or another to evolution--even evolutionists themselves that have a problem reconciling the evidence. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/ http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.203.181 (talk) 13:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"hundreds of scientists" out of the hundreds of thousands of scientists is so small a fraction as to be virtually none at all. In any case, many on the lists you cited aren't even scientists at all (but are rather engineers, mathematicians, educationalists, etc), let alone are scientists in fields that give them any understanding of evolution. These are religious organisations, with religious statements of belief, so it is hardly a stretch to conclude that their signatories disbelieve evolution for religious reasons -- especially as most of them don't know a damn thing about evolutionary biology. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 13:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia works according to WP:NPOV. That means, both sides are presented. Now you can reject one side or the other or both if you like. But both sides are in the article. Whether you find the arguments of either side compelling is up to the reader.--Filll (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Presenting both sides is fine. But it would be disengenuous to deny that the way these sides are presented sides with evolutionary theory. The mere format/order of the article is proof of this. Nearly every section starts out with something like "creationists believe..." and then ends with something like "but these claims have been largely rejected by the scientific community which asserts that.....". A HUGE portion of the world doubts the validity of evolution. If anyone from the millions on the doubting side wrote the article, it would be turned exactly on its head and the format/order referred to above would be summarily reversed. And again, the unprofessional statement above about how certain anti-evolutionists "don't know a damn thing about evolutionary biology" totally betrays the writer's emotional attachment to evolutionary theory. This statement proves the existance of bias in the very statement that's being made in an attempt to disprove it.

Read WP:UNDUE. Nearly everything that creationists believe is directly contradicted by the scientific consensus, based upon an enormous volume of evidence. "A HUGE portion" of the world is quite often wrong on the most basic facts, which is why argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. "Anyone from the millions on the doubting side" who "wrote the article" would lack WP:RS for their viewpoint & it would be deleted, per wikipedia policy. And why is it "unprofessional" to suggest that the majority of a list containing very few biologists (and many who aren't scientists at all) don't know anything about evolutionary biology? The only "bias" this suggests is a bias against fallacious appeals to false authority. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 09:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a brief comment that most people who believe in a divine Creation do not reject evolution or other science, but instead reject the assumptions of the conflict thesis. The most common example of this position is theistic evolution. Most mainline churches, along with the the Catholic and Orthodox churches, (which together form the vast majority of Christians) fall into this category of "creationist". Vassyana (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This is caiming for this poster http://imgs.xkcd.com/store/imgs/science_square_0.png193.145.150.39 (talk) 12:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Main mechanism by/in the 30s

The relative contributions of various evolutionary mechanisms has been a controversial subject since the publication of Darwin's work. Darwin mentioned natural selection, but also from his writings it was clear he believed there were other mechanisms. This mechanism fell out of favor by 1900 or so, but then by the time of the modern synthesis, it was the consensus that it was the main mechanism. Since then, more mechanisms and controversy has erupted about the relative contributions of various mechanisms under a variety of circumstances. So unless and until we get an expert here to be a bit more careful, I would rather keep this vague.--Filll (talk) 03:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

My point was about grammar. We need a comma or rephrasing so that the sentence is talking about 'evolution' itself, not 'evolution in the 1930s'. There were no special evolutionary changes happening in the 1930s, were there? ^rossnixon 06:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok I see what you mean. It could be interpreted another way. And yours could almost as well. If the sentence was reordered that would fix it. Is this necessary? I am not convinced.--Filll (talk) 14:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV

"Purge any POVish tone, whether pro- or anti-evolution" is on the to-do list, yet Wikipedia clearly takes the 'point of view' that evolution is an accurate description of how life originated and changed. How can we not take the this position, without contradicting ourselves, science and basic reasoning? Richard001 (talk) 07:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I am tempted to comment that Wikipedia also takes the point of view that gravity makes objects fall to the ground, and that the earth is roughly spherical. Let's review all articles touching on those subjects as well, to ensure that alternative views are taken into account... Surely, in fact, the answer lies simply in WP:DUE. Snalwibma (talk) 07:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

One can PROVE imperically that objects fall to the ground. For you go equate the factual undeniability of this with evolution belies your emotional attachment to evolution and should diqualify you from contributing to what should be a OBJECTIVE article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.228.43 (talk) 08:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

And one can prove empirically that natural selection and macroevolution, in the form of speciation, occur. That evolution happens is a fact, the Theory of Evolution is science's best explanation of how it happens. Now please take your WP:SOAPBOX outside. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 08:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Entropy Additions

This talkpage is for discussing improvements to the article, NOT for "critiquing the policy" underlying it.
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
I have tried in the past to add the information below to the Entropy section. For some reason, it's almost immediately deleted. If someone can help me with what needs to be revised and/or explain why my additions are removed, I would appreciate it. Thanks. However, critics of the scientific establishment counter that it does not matter if earth is in an open or closed system; all systems lose heat and decrease in order. It does not matter how much earth gets hit by ultra-violet rays; evolution must (through chance, mutations, and time) produce a biological mechanism by which to convert raw energy (sun) into usable, working energy, such as the process of photosynthesis in plants. Additionally, Dr. Henry Morris, scientist for the Institute of Creation Research and former evolutionist, states that “the entropy principle applies at least as much to open systems as to closed systems. In an isolated real system, shut off from external energy, the entropy (or disorganization) will always increase. In an open system (such as the earth receiving an influx of heat energy from the sun), the entropy always tends to increase, and, as a matter of fact, will usually increase more rapidly than if the system remained closed!” [1] --Batman144 (talk) 01:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC) There are several difficulties. The main one is that this article is only a summary article and does not have room for what you want to put in it. The main article is Entropy and life of course and if anyplace, it would be most suitable there. However, having glanced at the Morris article, it is not particularly credible or much of a reliable source without a lot of explanatory material. For example, Morris claims " evolution is supposed to be a universal law of increasing complexity". This is blatantly false, and we see it is part of a strawman argument. Next the article is full of quote mines so very little that is in it is reliable, all being misquotes of one type or another. It is a completely unbalanced description, since it does not include the position of mainstream science, representing over 99% of the scientists in the relevant fields. Morris' article, to be included, should be balanced for NPOV with several solid articles from the mainstream so it can be put into context. The original articles he has quote mined from should be tracked down so we can see what they really say, instead of what Morris claims they say. It would take weeks of solid effort to incorporate the Morris article in in a reasonable NPOV fashion. The Morris article is not a WP:RS for more than the position of Morris on entropy, and maybe a few related creationists. While not a completely silly idea, I personally have many other projects going on right now and am not ready to drop them and start on this one. What I suggest you do is add this material to the talk page of the Entropy and life article, and see if anyone wants to work with you there to help you incorporate the material in suitable form into the Entropy and life article. --Filll (talk) 03:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC) I would point out that: Henry M. Morris is a Hydraulic engineer, not a scientist, let alone an expert on Thermodynamics. His claims are also prima facie fallacious, as the newly-placed contents of a refrigerator easily demonstrate as a counter-example (an 'open system', they clearly undergo a reduction in entropy on being cooled). In the case of the Earth, it is continually losing energy to the Universe in the form of infra-red radiation. The Institute for Creation Research is a young Earth creationist apologetics organisation, not a legitimate scientific institution. I do not see any necessity to include fallacious arguments from an absurdly unreliable source, except to the extent that they are sufficiently notable that they (and their debunking in a reliable source) should be documented. HrafnTalkStalk 04:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC) --First, thanks to you both for your time and comments. I'm relatively new to this process so any help you have to offer is appreciated. My response would be as follows: I understand your misgivings regarding Dr. Morris, however, this article's primary objective (at least judging by its title) is to present concepts and arguments contrary to evolution. Should that not be the article's focus? For example, I would not look up an article explaining evolution theory and expect it to focus on debunking material. Certainly, any disclaimers such as "Dr. Morris' views are not given credence by the scientific mainstream" would be appropriate, but, nonetheless, the bulk of the article (I would think) should be arguments against evolution, not material antithetical to the title. I would suggest either allowing in-depth information that is both pro and con as part of this article, or split the two sides into their own articles: this article presenting anti-evolution information, and the other article answering the statements made in this article. Thanks again for your time. --Batman144 (talk) 01:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC) In your edits (of three months ago, so it's hardly surprising that they're not exactly fresh in our minds), you presented Dembski & Morris as reliable sources on science and presented their (frequently patently fallacious) claims as factual, and without any scientific rebuttal. It is therefore unsurprising that your edits were reverted. Also specified complexity bears no direct relationship to thermodynamics. HrafnTalkStalk 02:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC) --"you presented Dembski & Morris as reliable sources on science and presented their ...claims as factual" No, I presented their own arguments in their own words; I made no comment whatsoever on their veracity. Nonetheless, you seem to disallow even that -- which is particularly odd given this article's subject. That being the case, why not just delete the article altogether? This article already goes into great detail answering arguments against evolution, yet, ironically, the objections themselves are given cursory treatment. At the very least, this article should be renamed "Rebutting Objections to Evolution" --Batman144 (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC) You are confused. We list the objections, but for NPOV, we have to present the other side. To some people, the rebuttal will be most convincing. To others, the objection will be most convincing. And that is how it goes.--Filll (talk) 20:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC) Calling Morris a "scientist" is most certainly presenting him as a reliable source. Presenting their fallacious objections without scientific rebuttal also gives a false impression of their reliability. HrafnTalkStalk 02:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC) --Filll, thank you for your attention to this. My point is that there already is more detail and space given to the other side than there is to the topic itself. Doesn’t that in itself work against NPOV? --Batman144 (talk) 23:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC) Actually, the opposite is true. Following WP:DUE we must give due weight to the mainstream scientific conclusion, which is that evolution is the best explanation we have for the data. Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 23:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC) --Hello, Sheffield. It's good to see another party join the discussion. How is NPOV preserved when 1/3 of the article is devoted to the topic at hand while 2/3 is given for rebuttal? --Batman144 (talk) 01:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC) According to NPOV, the views are to be represented "in proportion to their prominence". Since we are talking about science, the scientific consensus of way more than 99% of the relevant scientists accepts evolution, including the role of entropy etc. So according to NPOV, maybe 99 per cent or more could be rebuttal. But we are more fair than that.--Filll (talk) 02:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC) I see no problem, in an article about 'objections to evolution', giving WP:DUE weight to the majority scientific viewpoint that these objections have no scientific basis. HrafnTalkStalk 02:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC) BAtman144: The simple fact of the matter is that there aren't any valid objections to evolution. Opponents of evolution haven't found anything that actually stands up. But if we don't supply details of the problems that have been identified with the previous attempts to rebut evolution, then we'd be suppressing information. And, inevitably, explaining the problems with the previous attempts often involves going into greater detail (and requiring more space) than presenting the attempts themselves. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC) --First, allow me to thank all involved for their time and patience. I guess my concern with the current modus operandi is as follows: I’m willing to bet most readers researching arguments against evolution and who choose your pages will probably not expect Wikipedia to offer only brief, cursory information on the topic chased by in-depth rebuttals. Were I to research the topic, I certainly would not find enough information here. More importantly, I may not realize the information is only cursory. Additionally, there are still issues with the article as-is. The current verbiage of the section’s second paragraph leaves the impression that evolution critics are unaware of or have no response to the isolated system issue. This is incorrect. (Ironically, that information was in the material I tried to post.) Ultimately, I wish Wikipedia permitted a freer flow of information. I believe there are much preferable ways of making clear that a particular view is in the minority without prohibiting an in-depth exposition of any given point of view. Nonetheless, thank you again for everyone’s effort and attention. --Batman144 (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC) This is of course an encyclopedia article, so it will not be in depth; no encyclopedia article is. In addition, this article clearly lists many different objections. So it is even less in depth. It provides links in many cases to more complete articles. However, it does provide links to many other articles in books where a reader can start to research the objections in detail. And that is true of all encyclopediae. Of course if a person is truely interested in this question, one would have the objection, then the answer to the objection, then the counterobjection to the answer, then the rebuttal to the counterobjection, then the rejoinder to the rebuttal, and so on, maybe for dozens if not hundreds of steps. We cannot cover all that on Wikipedia. We provide links to help the reader get started; that is all. We also provide the first couple of steps in the process, in the rough proportion to their prominence and the rough proportion to the consensus of the scientific community. Because frankly, no one serious in the scientific community takes this objection seriously. Nobody. This is a nonsense objection. Just look into it a bit deeper if you do not agree. Sorry.--Filll (talk) 02:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC) Batman144: I object to your characterisation. That these 'objections' are completely and utterly without scientific basis is crucial information on them. Additionally, it generally takes longer to explain why an argument is fallacious than to pluck the argument itself out of thin air. This asymmetry is the basis for the notorious creationist tactic known as the Gish gallop. This is acceptable under WP:DUE, so your repeated complaints about relative weight is without basis in policy. Therefore I would suggest that further discussion serves no purpose under WP:TALK. HrafnTalkStalk 04:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC) "...so your repeated complaints about relative weight is without basis in policy" Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was in fact critiquing the policy. "Therefore I would suggest that further discussion serves no purpose under WP:TALK." On that, we agree. I think we have all pretty much said all there is to say. With that, I bid you adieu... --Batman144 (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proving the Objections false

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but... Should the article "Objections to evolution" be devoted to proving these objections wrong? As someone reading this who doesn't give a damn either way, it seems to be about making creationists look like idiots. Perhaps it would be best to explain the objections, and merely link to articles which tackle those objections, since there's plenty of that content available in other articles. Just a thought. 125.188.156.90 (talk) 10:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, they are false. If we don't say so, we'd be suppressing relevant information. And if we said so only in a series of spin-off articles, we'd be creating a misleading impression in this article. But this article does indeed contain numerous "further information" links to more detailed articles on each topic. --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

From NPOV, this is how the article has to be written. Also, those who believe that evolution is flawed will ignore the "proofs" of falsity probably. And those who believe evolution is not false will ignore the objections, probably. So each faction will take from this article what they want. However, it is valuable for each side to know what the arguments of the other side are. And that is what this article is for.--Filll (talk) 11:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to note that there is no hard policy dictating that we must prove false all objections to evolution. However, if this encyclopaedia is going to present science-based arguments against evolution, it would give our readers a misleading impression if it did not put those into context - the context of the widely-held scientific consensus. Objections which are not and do not claim to be scientific need not (and arugably should not) be "proven false" in this article. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 13:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler belived in Evolution

Rambling attack on a variety of people and of little encyclopedic value. Baegis (talk) 07:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
This sentence "Historical analyses demonstrate that the origins of the Holocaust are more likely to be found in Christianity than in evolution." Is completely insane. Atheists seem to love gleefully pointing out things like the crusades at any Christian that preaches love, but the fact is that many of the crusaders didn't even know how to read the Bible, and didn't know what Christianity was really about. The crusades were just a political endeavor cleverly disguised as Christian to get more followers. And about the Holocaust, Hitler belived that humans were descended from an Atlantian race, and that blue eyed and blond haired people were part of an Arian race, the next step in evolution. To bring along the Arain race Hitler began to anhiilate the Jews, whom he believed were lower in evolution. Hitler learned this from occult groups such as the Theosophists and the Thule Society. He truly was an occultist, and only claimed to be a Christian to win the support of his nation. Jesus says in Matthew 5: 44 "Love your enemies, do good to those who curse you" There's no violent crusade/holocaust message in the Christianity that Jesus preached. Can we reach the consensus that the false message: "Historical analyses demonstrate that the origins of the Holocaust are more likely to be found in Christianity than in evolution." be removed from the end of the "Evolution leads to Immorality and Social Ills" section. Fusionbomb (talk) 07:51, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

The cited article says that many people think that "humans are the ultimate product, even goal, of evolution". That is clearly a misconception, we are not the "crown of evolution", etc., but is it really wrong to say that we are more advanced than monkeys, or even more evolved? If we have evolved from monkeys, then surely we are precisely that, "more highly evolved"?? --Merzul (talk) 22:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, since humans and chimpanzees diverged from their common ancestor, they have undergone essentially identical numbers of evolutionary changes. We aren't "more highly" evolved than a chimp, just differently evolved.Kww (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I see the point, but any sensitive reader would object to the phrasing that we can't say a given species is more "advanced" than another. We can clearly compare cognitive capacities between species, and it is not a misconception to call one species more advanced. I now do realize that the point is that we are precisely as evolved as modern monkeys. (You would perhaps allow me to say that we are more evolved than homo erectus, because here I could say that we are something like 2 million years more evolved.) Does it make sense what I'm saying? --Merzul (talk) 22:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe my problem is that "advanced" can mean having advanced to higher levels, i.e, being more evolved, but it can also simply mean to be more sophisticated (and here I'm imposing an anthropocentric standard, which is precisely what the misconception is all about.) I'm not sure. I'll leave this at your discretion. You are justified in putting back "advanced", or you could just keep "more evolved", which I think is less confusing. --Merzul (talk) 23:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The fact that "any sensitive reader" would object is precisely why it's important to make this clear. It is meaningless to talk about more or less advanced in terms of biology. In other contexts, we can say that humans are more advanced than other animals, but here that would be false. I hope I'm getting this across well; it can be difficult to explain the "scientific" meaning of words versus the colloquial meaning. It may be possible to say "more evolved" if we're discussing the number of genetic changes over time, which can vary between species. Right now there's a great deal of buzz surrounding a New Scientist article claiming that chimps are "more evolved" than humans for precisely that reason. That's why I think saying advanced is better. Does this make sense? --Gimme danger (talk) 23:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear in the article, but at least I've learned something interesting and I do understand it now. Thanks, Merzul (talk) 23:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More Bias

Thread author has no more complaints. — Scientizzle 17:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.
I agree that this article lacks neutrality. When I open an article entitled "Objections to Evolution", I expect it primarily to rehearse the objections. That is the simplest unbiased version of this article. You don't need to provide balancing information if you are describing a list of "objections to evolution". You just need the list. If you want to add balancing comments, then they should be in the form, "Evolutionary theory responds to this by pointing out that..." or "Evolutionary scientists answer this objection by saying that...". Most of the "balancing" information in this article has the feel of, "Objectors are wrong because...". Either the article should be rewritten to the NPOV standard, or the title should be changed to, "Evolutionist Responses to Objections to Evolution" (in which case other edits will also be necessary). Any takers? BigFatLiberal (talk) 23:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Well we cannot just give the objections because of the WP:NPOV policy. And this article is not a list. If you want a list, go to a creationist website. And you do not understand NPOV I am afraid. You might be happier at Conservapedia perhaps.--Filll (talk) 23:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Moved comment. All objections have been recognized and rebutted in reliable sources. We are discussing the objections to evolution, and all the ways that they fail. NPOV means we treat if fairly, not that we give ridiculous, unfounded objections an unvarnished, uncritical free pass. WLU (talk) 23:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Glad to hear such an unbiased response. "Ridiculous, unfounded". Reeks of neutrality. All you arre doing here is flaunting your biases. If I were looking at a page entitled "Objections to the Theory of Relativity", I would expect to see a list of those objections, period. If some sense of balance was necessary, I would expect cites of supporters of the theory couched as "Relativity supporters respond to this by..." It is clear that one of us does not understand NPOV. And one of us is heavy-handed and tendentious. Obviously the fox is in charge of the chicken house. We clearly need a higher level of moderation here. BigFatLiberal (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC) Before this degenerates into a slanging match... The trouble with letting the "objections" stand alone, unrefuted, is that they are in fact all refuted by good straightforward science. To leave them simply stated and not countered would not be unbiased, it would be dishonest, leaving the reader with the impression that there are valid objections, when there simply aren't. Also, it strikes me that the people who argue in favour of leaving arguments unchallenged on a page like this are the very same people who insist that (e.g.) the article about Richard Dawkins must include a "criticism" section because the counter-arguments to what he says are not given enough prominence. In fact, it is appropriate for both articles to deal even-handedly with points and counter-points, from the standpoint of accepted scientific facts. In my judgment, both these articles are now correctly balanced. If you think differently, I suggest writing a draft of an alternative version and asking for opinions on it. Snalwibma (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC) If there is a comparable list of bogus objections to relativity, I would expect that list to contain explanations of why they are bogus. This is an encyclopaedia. Our purpose is to educate the reader. We don't just host pointless lists. Furthermore, the suggested alternative wording contains claims that "evolutionary theory responds to this..." (theories don't respond: relativity theory doesn't respond either) and daft made-up phrases such as "evolutionary scientists" (anyone know any relativitary scientists?) --Robert Stevens (talk) 14:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC) WP:NPOV does not state that we never mention anything critical about a topic, but that we give WP:DUE weight to the balance of opinions published in reliable sources. If the overwhelming majority of these reliable sources characterise these arguments are baseless twaddle, then this is what the article will reflect. If you want it to say otherwise, you must first find a substantial body of reliable sources offering a different characterisation. HrafnTalkStalk 14:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC) I agree with much that has been said here. As I said at the beginning, I feel that adding balancing responses to the objections is reasonable if it is deemed necessary. My contention is that the "balancing" responses in this article are not at all neutral in tone. They come across more as "This is, of course, bogus baseless twaddle", with a sense of deus vox to them. An example of what I would like to see is: "Objections are made that evolution is unobservable in nature. But evolutionary biology provides genetic studies which indicate that..." followed perhaps by cites from a specific evolutionary biologist. A counterexample would be, "Objections are made that evolution is unobservable in nature. However, this is unscientific, bogus, baseless twaddle, and all scientists agree with this." I realize that I am exaggerating here, but some of the writing in this article certainly comes across this way. By the way, on what necessity were my comments moved to the end of the discussion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigFatLiberal (talk • contribs) 15:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC) WP:FRINGE absolves us as editors from being unduly kind to unscientific, bogus, baseless twaddle. It would be, in fact, irresponsible to not call demonstrable unscientific, bogus, baseless twaddle what it is. (Now, this doesn't necessitate beating a point to death or overly confrontational language, so you you've any specific examples that could benefit from wordsmithing, you're welcome to bring them up.) BTW, Your comment was moved because it's standard procedure that new topics start at the bottom of the page. — Scientizzle 16:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC) Thanks for the standards info. I will adhere to that in the future. It's great to know that, when Darwinism/neo-Darwinism is no longer en vogue, Wiki articles will treat it like unscientific, bogus, baseless twaddle. I'm looking forward to seeing that. Also, on thinking about it, this article is probably more useful as it is. The patent disregard for skepticism toward evolution is very helpful to those who are endeavoring to illustrate the essentially political nature of this debate. I guess I don't have any complaints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigFatLiberal (talk • contribs) 17:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC) Certainly, if the scientific consensus ever rejects evolutionary theory, it will be Wikipedia's place the topic in proper perspective, as we do currently to nonscience, pseudoscience, and outdated ideas. But, please, don't use the word "Darwinism"--it's a lame attempt at a pejorative that only creationists use. "Modern evolutionary synthesis" is most accurate, but "evolution by natural selection" or just "evolution" will do nicely. Since you've no further complaints, I will shortly archive this discussion. — Scientizzle 17:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

Comparing this article to past versions, I notice some improvements, but also some new (and old) weaknesses.

A. Lead section

1. Awkward wordings. Additions like "A variety of objections..." would help smoothness a lot.
2. The historical description is probably too detailed. Compare with the earlier version, which was much more clear and concise, and was more explicit about scientific v. religious criticism without getting bogged down in misleading details like "Young Earth Creationists" (who do not constitute the sole, or even the most prominent, critics of evolution in modern society).
3. "around the start of the nineteenth century." - Aside from the fact that it should be "19th century", this bit doesn't seem to make sense in the context of the rest of the paragraph. Does it mean to say "20th century"? Or is it referring to evolutionary ideas earlier than Darwin's?
4. "The ideas gained vast popular audiences," - Before or after they gained scientific acceptance? And what's the relationship with Darwin here? Should it be "Charles Darwin's book The Origin of Species brought these ideas vast popular audiences,", or is it talking about something else?
5. "he gradually convinced most of the scientific community that evolution was a valid hypothesis" - "Most of the scientific community"? Why the qualifier? And why did it take him so long to prove that his proposal was "a valid hypothesis"—wouldn't that normally be a given? The real question would be whether it's a valid, or (more to the point) evidentially verified, theory. And it is this that he "gradually convinced" most of the scientific community of—though we may be over-emphasizing its gradualness here considering that we already note that it took until the 1930s for the modern synthesis to be created.
6. "The existence of evolutionary processes, and the ideas of the modern evolutionary synthesis that explain them" - Evolutionary processes don't exist, they occur. And this is, as with much of the rest of the first paragraph, confusing and awkward wording: are we saying that biologists accept the existence of modern evolutionary synthesis as an idea, or that they accept the content of the ideas themselves? Again, compare with the clarity (albeit, unfortunately, generality) of earlier versions: "The observation, or fact, of evolutionary processes occurring, as well as the current theory explaining that fact, have been uncontroversial among biologists for nearly a century."
7. "However, most Christians believe in God as Creator, while also accepting scientific evolution as a natural process." - Polemic wording. The implication is that the author is one such Christian, surely an impression we don't wish to give. Also, claims like these definitely need citation: how many Christians really do accept "scientific evolution"? Is it insignificant that this global majority is, within the United States, apparently a minority? Also, why strange wordings like "believe in God as Creator" as opposed to simply (and more academically/encyclopedically) "believe in a creator deity"?
8. "A minority of Christians rejected evolution from its outset as "heresy", but most attempted to reconcile scientific evolution with Biblical accounts of creation." - This is very confusing sequencing, because it hops back and forth between the present and the past arbitrarily.
9. "Islam accepts the natural evolution of plants and animals, but the origin of man is contested and no consensus has emerged." - No consensus among whom? Among Muslims? Among scientists who happen to be Muslim? Among Islam-specialized scholars? Among religious authorities on the Qur'an? And why does this paragraph act as though such a "consensus" has developed in Christianity (by emphasizing a "majority" of Christians versus a "minority"), when it so clearly has not? Also, why is Islam discussed in the lead, but nowhere else in the article?
10. "The resultant creation-evolution controversy" - Again, sequencing makes this awkward and confusing. The implication is that the entire creation-evolution controversy is a result of the lack of consensus in Islam.
11. "most prevalent in certain, generally more conservative, regions of the United States" - More awkwardness, more uncited claims, more generalizations with no specific details elaborated on in the article body.
12. "Creation Science and Intelligent Design" - Why are these capitalized?
13. "by God or an intelligent being" - God isn't an intelligent being? Ouch.
14. "scientific acceptance. However, these arguments are not accepted by the scientific community." - OK, I don't have a big problem with this wording, though I do find it very funny that the scientific community doesn't accept its supposed unacceptance. Whee.

B. Defining evolution

1. Can we move this Icythys image anywhere else? It really isn't relevant to the "definitions" section. I preferred having the Wiktionary link here for convenience, and the fish (or some other image) at the top—I realize why we have the evobox there, but I find it very concerning for us to have a Biology box at the top of a sociological, and explicitly non-biological, article. A creationism or ID linkbox would be more relevant, and much less misleading. Perhaps we could find some compromise, like using a horizontal evobox at the bottom of the article?
2. "We are led to believe otherwise by our tendency to evaluate nonhuman organisms according to our own, anthropocentric standards." - Who is "we"? Avoid self-references.

C. History of objections

1. "This, however, is a 'straw man' argument: evolution does not postulate half an eye, but an eye that is half as efficient. The incremental improvement refers to an organ's ability, rather than its structure." - How is this relevant to the "history of objections"? This section of the article is about the historical origins of modern objections, not about the scientific or logical validity of those objections. This rebuttal belongs exclusively in Evolution#Evolution cannot create complex structures; provide an intralink to that section if you feel impatient to educate readers on this matter. Moreover, the response is misleading and malformed: evolution does indeed postulate "half an eye," just not "half" in the left/right sense; rather, "half" in the sense of overall complexity and development. "Half as efficient" is not a good way to put this, because efficiency is relative and situation-dependent, and evolution does not move towards greater efficiency in a linear manner: modern-day eyes that are half efficient as ours nonetheless share a common ancestor with ours. Evolution is not about "incremental improvement," it's about incremental change that happens to be environmentally filtered. Evolution is about structure at least as much as it is about function: glasses are very relevant to function, if not to structure, yet do not constitute evolution.
2. Why was the Darwin's Black Box image removed? Isn't it relevant?

More to come. -Silence (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

---

• A1: I don't see that adding "various" adds any information or flow to the opening sentence.
• A2: The historic paragraph frames what "objections" the article is principally discussing -- namely modern creationist objections, rather than historic scientific ones.
• A3: Evolutionary ideas (e.g. Lamarckism) predate Darwin -- his were merely the ideas that won scientific acceptance.
• A4: This appears to be somewhat hyperbolic, but Lamarckism is described as "enormously popular during the early 19th century". In a historical context, "evolutionary ideas" and "Darwinian evolution" are not synonymous.
• A5: Because there were a few notable holdouts: e.g. Louis Agassiz.
• A6: They both exist and occur. In this context, it is their existence that we are interested in.
• A7: No, it is not "polemic" it is factual and cited. If you wish to dispute this, then either (1) demonstrate that the cited source didn't say this or (2) provide WP:RS evidence that the cited source is wrong. "Is it insignificant that this global majority is, within the United States, apparently a minority?" Unless American exceptionalism has become official wikipedia policy without me knowing it then, no. It has no more global weight than regional beliefs in penis theft.
• A8: No, it is written ubiquitously in the past tense.
• A9: If you want more details, then you should read the cited source and find out -- that's what they're there for.
• A10: Only if you're looking for ambiguity. It, like the opening sentence, is clearly referring to the "religious, rather than scientific, sources" -- Islamic and Christian, that are discussed in the paragraph. I see no way to make this any clearer without unnecessary clumsiness.
• A11: From the Butler Act through to the Academic Freedom bills, anti-evolution sympathies have been predominately in conservative US states.
• A12: Probably because they are named creationist movements. This may or may not be MOS, but is not worthy of a lengthy talkpage discussion regardless.
• A13: Fixed.
• A14: Science doesn't accept that it hasn't accepted evolution -- and it should know.
• B1: It goes as well there as anywhere else and is relevant to the article generally, so may as well go in the first section that doesn't otherwise have an illustration.
• B2: Unless you're expecting this article to be read by any non-humans, the first person plural is appropriate for discussing humans generally. I've offered a slight clarification to indicate this.
• C1: The eye is one of the oldest objections to unguided evolution, dating back to John Ray in the 17th century. It thus clearly has a place in a history section.
• C2: Most probably for non-free-image/fair-use considerations. Take it up with the image police.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the lead, it could doubtless be improved by rephrasing. As time permits. Also, it covers a point that the History section needs to show, that ideas of evolution and objections to those ideas go way back, particularly to the start of the 19th century and Lamarck's more scientific development from earlier concepts. The ideas were favoured by Radicals, then gained "shocked and converted vast popular audiences" [but didn't get scientific acceptance] from 1844 following the fierce controversy over Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation. See the cited sources. Similarly, we should mention the slow acceptance of natural selection and the early 20th century prominence of Mendelian evolution opposed to "Darwinism" or "neo-Darwinism", since that's the source of many misunderstandings. . . dave souza, talk 19:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that it could use some improvement. My main issue with it would be an overly simplistic and possibly misleading discussion of falsification, as Silence probably knows, having helped me with my draft on falsification and evolution.--Filll (talk | wpc) 20:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Most Christians

Regarding this edit, the reference provided only shows that a plurality of Americans believe in the Creationist view. It does not group the results by the religion of the respondents. Even assuming we make some favorable assumptions interpreting the data, it still applies only to American Christians. However, in fact, the very source goes on to contradict any attempt to generalize this to all Christians. For instance:

“

Belief in creation science seems to be largely a U.S. phenomenon among countries the West. A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that: 97% do not believe the world was created in six days. 80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve

”

--siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 01:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)