Talk:Novelty theory

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-12-18. The result of the discussion was Keep.
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Looking through the 7.1 software archive that 66.134.102.50 added a link to, I realize that I was the one that compiled it and wrote the readme. For the life of me I can't remember when, or how I released it. Or how I lost it. I'm interested to know how the person who put up the link came by it. Leave a message on my talk page if you'd like to let me know. — Clarknova 18:00, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Numerology Vs. Mathematics

I thought in order to be NPOV a lot needed to be said about his claims to Novelty Theory being a "mathematical theory", most mathematicians would disagree to that status. There is very little "mathematical " about it, it is much more numerlogical. Of course the article still needs to be NPOV and respect Mckennas's views but since it is a theory that, if even considered by the mathematical community at large, which it is not do to it's very numerological nature, would be a very controversial theory, and is usually rejected outright by those few mathematicians who have even considered it (it's hard to even find links to such criticisms made by trained mathematicians because it is so very rarely considered do to it's obvious numerologica nature.) It has not been published in a peer reviewed journal to the best of my knowledge (something to be expected considerig McKenna's rejection of the methods of what he called "Western" science--a disrespectful misnomer IMHO considering the many valuable contributions from the East.) I added some material about the controversial nature of the claim, I tried to be NPOV, as a matter of fact the effort was an attempt tp make the article more NPOV, and less lauditory, although fans of McKenna's work might disagree to the success of my NPOV eforts. If you change any of my additions please discuss it here first.

I suspect some might consider relegating all such criticism to the "criticism" section, but since the claims to it being a "mathematical" theory are so dubious I think its appropriate that the controversey of the claim be mentioned where the claim is first stated, especially since the claim is made right next to the very numerological sources. If you don't understand the difference between numerology and mathematics please refrain from attempting to contribute to this portion of the article, as little of use is likely to be added someone who does not know anything about the subject.

For the record I respect some of McKenna's efforts, namely his efforts to preserve plants used by indigenous cultures, I just think a lot of his theories were silly, a feeling which I tried to keep out of the article, only mentioning, in a attempt to make the article less POV, the very real controversy of his claimes to Novelty Theory being on a sound mathematical or scientific ground. --Brentt 08:07, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I just rewrote much of what you added, so the article discusses the theory's numerological basis without actually criticising that through math. There isn't any reason for the article itself to be critical of novelty theory, as encyclopedias aren't here to make claims about what is and isn't objective fact. I also got rid of some redundancy in wikilinks and in the paragraph at the bottom of criticisms. However, I beleive that everything you brought up is still in there, as it should be. --Heah (talk) 02:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Defintitely an improvement on my edit; its now a more neutral phrasing and structure than either my version or the previous version. Thank you for the contribution. --Brentt 10:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time Travel Prophecy Fulfilled

Whats interesting to me is that the work of Dr. Ronald Mallett may fulfill the time travel prophecy by 2012, though i suspect Dr. Rons already got his time machine working. And wouldn't you say that the internet and Wikipedia also fulfill the consciousness shift criteria?

[edit] Is McKenna being serious?

Terrence McKenna is not known to have ever issued such a statement. Indeed, in his published books, interviews, and recorded lectures McKenna consistently treats the theory as seriously as any of his other material.

I've listened to all his lectures I could get my hands on, and have never had the feeling of him treating the thing as a scientific theory. I even read the Invisible Landscape and it is described in an introduction - justifiably so I believe - as akin to a dense alchemical grimoire - that was also my feel for the book - using all theories at their disposal to attempt to explain something unexplainable, incoherent and passionate, but certanly not scientific. True, he did say it was a theory of mathematics, and that is totaly false. Actual factography was never his strong point :), and if confronted with the fact that it isn't math, I think he would have no problems retracting such a statement. He created the wave using just the basic mathematics, and some geometric intuitions, so I think that by seing a mathematical theory he meant only in the sense of dealing with numbers. I dont have the quotes to demonstrate this feeling, will look for them. I dont think he would call the thing a parody - I think he liked it (and how wouldn't he, since it came to him in such a drastic trip?), but was himself split about believing or not in it. But when presenting it, he allways called for people to test it by comparing the predictions of it with their own sense of the important events in history (supposedly he verified the Mayan end date by looking at the italian rennaisance) - thats more akin to other divination methods than science. Also I think he refered to it as his pet theory, and as some freakish object, etc. I see that there is a link in the pseudoscience to novelty theory - and again, he made no claims about it being scientific (I mean it was more like a channeled idea in a trip, totaly irational, antithetical to science), and that was a criterium of what constitues a pseudoscience in the beggining of that article. Just because something appears to one in a trip doesn't make the person that tripped it believe that its necessarely true - though it usualy makes one fond of the idea - for instance a guy in a trip saw an insectoid creature that explained that it is a mental parasite, living of the strength of emotion of the hosts - and he discusses the problem of the reality of such experiences, and is not ready to either believe or dismiss the experience. I think thats the logical adaptive attitude people take towards things they encounter on their trips, especially if tripping so intensly as McKenna, and believe that McKenna shared that aditute. He talked about pearing over the abyss and pulling something out of it - timewave zero was such an irrational object.

-aryah

Perhaps your right about Mckenna's view towards the theory--I suspect, though I could be wrong, Mckenna was not a typical dogma entrapped pseudo-scientist and would have been open and understanding of criticism. But I think many people take his theories as somehow having some scientific authority since he intentionally or unintentionally put a veneer of scientism on it (while at the same time critisizing the important parts of science.) and that may qualify it as "pseudo-science"--a lot of people have a pretty poor understanding of what qualifies something as "scientific". Pseudo-science is a pretty loaded term with a lot of grey area (althought there are some pretty clear cut cases) and this is definitely one of the grey areas.
That being said I think the difference between numerology and mathematics is much more clear cut. And this definitely falls into the numerology category, not mathematics.
Thats strange about the insectoid alien parasite, I had a friend who had that same trip on DMT, insect-like alien creature harvesting something from his brain. I wonder what it is that makes people have such similar trips with such specific narrative details (although there seems to be as much variation as similarities). --Brentt 19:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


I think wether McKenna took himself seriously or not depends on the time period and his venue. In some speeches and for some audiences he was more committed, and for some, less. Usually he makes some kind of verbal disclaimer, but I have a video produced by Sound Photosynthesis where he's shown discussing the theroy as fact.
One thing McKenna -never- did was publicly announce his theory was a parody. This is Peter Meyer's assertion. Meyer may have had some private discussion with McKenna along these lines, but there's no record of it, and it's likely that he never knew McKenna personally.
McKenna always allowed for the possibility that Novelty Theory was accurate.
As a side note: In his book DMT: The Spirit Molecule, Dr. Rick Strassman prints the trip reports of several of his DMT test subjects. One of them stands out as a sentient, parasitc insect hallucination. In this case the mantids (or whatever they were) were feeding on the emotions from the test subject's heart. — Clarknova 04:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


If his theory didn't make any serious point in Euler's continuity sense, he made one in Dawkin's memetic one. Hey, I've never red the Invisibles nor heard about McKenna's theory but how come I still came out with the same conclusions? The easiest explanation for this convergence is that there are fat ideas at work here. This was the remark he was emphasizing. Our brain is the possibility mill, the idea hatchery, the memetic vault, whatever background, school, research we've made, we are permeable to contamination - especially when it is coming from trusted side sources. So yes there is indeed an important question of influence.
You're right to mention Burroughs (or maybe Morrison), this drunk had an acute sense for catching any mind virus left aside. His ad hoc metaphor about extraterrestrial intelligence engineering our language had humongous consequences in our perception of reality.
And hey again, even irrationality has place within mathematics - almost all real numbers are irrational!
BTW: His model doesn't point Renaissance in 2012 but more in 2004 (see here). Or if you have enough Cells it might have happen just right now! Gilemon 17:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


There is nothing "irrational" about irrational numbers (just like there is nothing "imaginary" about imaginary numbers--no more than any other kind of number anyway). Its a completely different meanning from the non-mathematical sense of "irrational". As a matter of fact in the everyday sense they are deduced from pure rational thought, so they are actually very "rational" in that sense. The reason why they call them "irrational" is a holdover from the days (ancient greece) when they weren't really comfortable with the idea of a number that couldn't be expressed as a fraction--ironically because they had some irrational restrictive notions about what a number should be, so they called them "irrational". So in the sense you mean, "irrationality" doesn't play a part in mathematics (thats not to say there is nothing "irrational" in mathematics, its just that irrational numbers are no more "irrational" than any other kind of numbers.) Brentt 23:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
That’s what I’m saying; you’ve been permeable enough to see this irrationality in Mathematics as something "rational". "Being a language, mathematics may be used not only to inform but also, among other things, to seduce." Benoit Mandelbrot Gilemon 00:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Software

I have a copy of Timewave Zero 4.3. Is there really a Fractal Time 7.1? I cannot find it. --Ajay5150

yeah. does the link not work anymore? i just clicked on it and got a 403 permission error. If that happens to others too it should be removed. but i've downloaded it in the past- it isn't much improved from 4.3; it has some insignificant additional features that i can't recall as well as being in bad color. More importantly it uses a slightly different timewave, having taken watkins' objection into account and reprogrammed accordingly. --Heah talk 05:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I found some versions linked at deoxy. If they are the latest anyone can find, perhaps we should link them on the main page? Steved424 22:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] McKenna's description of hyperspace or the meeting with the hyperdimesional object

~~GS~~

Can anybody provide me with a link or tell me what McKenna's description of hyperspace was like? He mentioned that there was an entrance into hyperspace or a hyperspatial breakthrough by a hyperdimensional object. Recently, a friend of mine mentioned the novelty theory and I wanted to know if somebody could tell me what the description of his hyperdimensional space was like.

Not quite answering your question, but you might find The Reciprocality Project and The Third Age interesting. Bear in mind that I'm pretty sure the dopamine stuff is wrong. Steved424 22:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Read The Archaic Revival and Food of the Gods. McKenna is a huge proponent of "the end of history" when man will be freed of obsessions with technology and time, and return to a utopian life of Dionysian pleasures and harmony with the Earth. Also, psychedelic mushrooms are purported to be interspecies communication ( pheromones ), so if you blend all this together, you can get an idea what McKenna's idea of hyperspace might be. FireWeed 22:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutralization needed

This article desperately needs fact checking and slant-reverting by a knowledgeable math/sci editor. I am too busy myself, but I want to note that the present version is absurdly credulous. This "theory" would not be regarded as anything but sheer nonsense by mainstream scientists. ---CH 20:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't loose too much sleep over it - this is what McKenna is known for. The man has more scientific knowledge than most people, and not by a little, combined with a gift of words. He's able to make the most absurd notions sound like plausible, credible science. The man is known to embellish.
Example - in at least two of his books, Terrence McKenna has advocated the theory that psychedelic mushrooms are an alien species "from the heavens." He gives evidence that their spores are ligth enough to by carried by the wind, "perhaps to the edge of the atmosphere," that being purple in color would shield them from deep space radiation, that the shell of the spores has an electron density more than most metals, and that long-term survival plans for a species only require a limited number to survive such a journey. How did McKenna reach this conclusion? While "tripping" from mushrooms, one of them told him so - he was skeptical at first, but further research on his part confirmed the possibility.
Now if that isn't crackpot, I don't know what is. And yet, if we forget the main assertion and listen to the "evidence," it sounds somewhat reasonable. This is the most compelling example, but there are others. So, while the message and the messenger aren't one and the same, the fact that this is being described as a scientific theory looses some of its luster when we remember whose theory it is, and what else he theorized on. I realize none of this background is presented in the article, but ...
FireWeed 19:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


McKenna does indeed have an elegant way with words, and an intellect capable of convincing most what he says is worth considering. Now to dismiss 'tripping' as a reason to discredit his theories (just theories and nothing else, as all theories are, not truth) is absurd. McKenna was trying to make sense of his powerful trips (the Ayahuascan tribes gained all their knowledge from visions), what western science fails to realize is that there're limitations to scientific measuring tools and even more limitations on our sense organs, and DMT is a key which is the only chemical that fits into a lock in our brain. When trying to explain a trip during one of his lectures he claimed "a song is a song", meaning you can't take this information back to waking life, and spent his time trying to make sense of these visions and to bring some of a song back to us.
When talking about time wave zero McKenna stated "if I’m right... I’m a genius, if I’m wrong... I’m a mad man". He also always presented this theorys up for debate & without the dogma of most scientists. On another note the 'spore' theory is quite possible, as all our water is melted ice asteroids that fell to earth but again that’s simply another theory.
-C —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.40.48 (talk) 08:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia external links guidelines and the FTS site

From Wikipedia [[1] external links guidelines]:

"Links normally to be avoided ... Links mainly intended to promote a website ... Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. ... Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content."

The linked to page is a purchase page for selling of the software and the site restricts access to relevant content. The link is therefore in violation of wikipedia guidelines and should be removed from the external links section.66.42.71.57 17:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Another wikipedia guideline is: "...avoid linking to multiple pages from the same website". This [[2]] series of edits added three links to the same commercial software site.66.42.71.106 02:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, but I'm not the one who made those earlier links. I agree the links in that particular edit were added in a spammy promotional way, but I included a link to Meyer's site in my edit because it included some useful information about how McKenna picked the end-date of the "timewave". You can look at my edit history and see I'm not a link spammer, nor do I have any interest in promoting the timewave theory which I think is total bunk (I happened to look at the novelty theory page because it was linked to in the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar article which I had edited to help explain that the Maya did not really predict the end of the world in 2012). The fact that one person linked to the site in a spammy way in the past should not bar anyone from every linking to any of Meyer's writings ever again. Hypnosifl 14:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Clearly you are not a link spammer. Thanks for providing an even better reference link which quotes McKenna. And thanks for your willingness to consider whether or not a fifth link to Meyer's site is appropriate for this article. I share your opinion of timewave theory.
Meyer's sites should be linked to when appropriate, but at one point there were over fifty links from wikipedia articles into Meyer's hermetic site alone [3]. Applying wikipedia policies and guidelines (including but not limited to commercial website guidelines) has resulted in fewer links to Meyer's sites, as is partially documented by Google searches [4] [5]. 4.246.200.40 18:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed that there were a number of other links to Meyer's site, although only 2 are in the actual article. But it shouldn't be that surprising that an article on novelty theory should reference him, since he is the designer of the timewave software and his site is the only one I know of that contains his writings on the subject. Anyway, compare McKenna's explanation for his choice of the end-date vs. Meyer's...here's McKenna in the interview that's the current reference:
Terence: Peter Broadwell, who is sitting in the front row, has labored mightily to make the time-wave theory accessible to people. My original reason for choosing the 2012 date was very idiosyncratic. It had to do with temporal distances from the date that the atomic weapons were used on Hiroshima. But once we had this program running well enough that I could see what was happening, I felt that the time-wave gave very good agreement with the historical data. The time-wave maps novelty, coming and going, from historical time. Configure it so that you'd have the zero point in November, 2012; in that case the deepest ingression of novelty before modern times was in that fifty year period in the fifth century B.C., when Laotzu, Mencius, Ezekial and Zoroaster and Plato were all active. Such a moment! Nothing has been done since except adumbrations of that work. Then, of course, as you mentioned, the end of the Mayan calendar, which is a very, very strong coincidence.
And here's Meyer in the other site I tried to add as a reference:
The approach he originally took to determining the zero date was to look for an event of great novelty in recent history, and to take this as the start of the final 67.29-year (24,576-day) cycle. The use of a uranium bomb to kill 80,000 civilians on 1945-08-06 seemed to him the most likely candidate for such an event. Adding 67.29 years to the date of the incineration of Hiroshima brings one to mid-November 2012. Influenced by the fact that the current 13-baktun cycle of the Maya Calendar ends in December 2012 McKenna adopted 2012-12-22 as the zero date.
Meyer's explanation is far more clear--where McKenna says vaguely that "it had to do with temporal distances from the date that the atomic weapsons were used on Hiroshima", Meyer says specifically that the timewave contains a final 67.29 year cycle and that McKenna just looked for "an event of great novelty in recent history" to match with the beginning of this cycle (assuming from the start that history was almost 'over'). It also makes it more clear that this method originally led to an end in November of 2012, and that McKenna than adjusted it based on the Maya calendar, while in McKenna's quote it isn't even obvious that he *did* adjust it, he just says that the end of the Mayan calendar is a "strong coincidence" along the lines of the other "coincidence" which he thinks supports his choice of end date, the fact that the "deepest ingression of novelty" was in the fifth century B.C. If you can find any other reference for the fact that the original choice of end-date was based on this 67.29 year cycle and looking for a historical event to match it with, and that this originally led to an end-date of November 2012 but this was adjusted to match the end of the current 13-baktun cycle of the Maya calendar, then by all means add it, but if Meyer's page is the only reference that makes this clear then I don't think it makes sense to delete the link just based on the fact that his page is referenced a few other times in the article. Hypnosifl 05:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More information, less secondary stuff

It would be so much better if the formula(s) that give rise to the timewave were stated explicitly instead of being referred to in abstract, indirect wording. Also, I feel that removing much of the reported opinion would improve the article. Axel 20:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)