Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)

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[edit] Recent changes to WP:ATHLETE

It strikes me as kind of funny that we could spend months discussing debating and reasoning with each other at WP:FOOTY to reach consensus over WP:FOOTYN only for it to be shot down by WP:BIO because they didn't want it to supersede WP:ATHLETE yet the meaning of WP:ATHLETE can just be changed by anyone who wants to, with no discussion or attempt to find consensus and WP:BIO folk don't object at all. If one guys opinion on how the notability criteria should be written can over-rule hard won consensus, something is badly wrong with the way we assess notability. Perhaps it is time to let us clearly define notability sport by sport instead of expecting two (now three) sentences to cover all the sports in the world. EP 19:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

We call it the bold, revert, discuss cycle at Wikipedia. Per the Consensus policy, he has the right to make a change, but you have the right to revert him. I'm not sure that I agree with his change, but I respect him and trust his judgement. If you want to revert him and don't know how, contact me and I'll help. Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 20:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
He was reverted by someone else already, and been asked to bring his proposal here for discussion. --Kevin Murray (talk) 20:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I have reverted for now since there seems to be a challenge to the previous change. I have no position on the issue myself. I do have a minor procedureal concern since the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football mentioned by Wizardman in his edit summary does not seem to have been referenced on this talk page. However, feel free to re-revert if nobody intends to actually actively contest the change in question. Nsk92 (talk) 20:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The discussion is under the WP:ATHLETE heading on that page. I inadvertently made the page very us-centric originally, and as a result was just putting it back to the way it was for the most part. Wizardman 20:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I have no objection either way. It is in my mind meaningless unless you can define what "compete" means and as I've said before, how can you write an article if you don't have the verifiable content which would give you a pass from WP:N. It's a logic circle jerk. Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
My point was not to criticise Wizardman's changes, it was to state that we worked extremely hard at WP:FOOTY to reach consensus over what is a notable acheivement for a football/soccer player, taking into account acheivements at club level, international level, and youth level, and the acheivements of historical players. We tried to make the guidelines clear and unambiguous and to make them applicable to World football not just football in Anglo-countries. We worked out our differences with discussion and debate and finally came up with something succinct and unambiguous that we all felt we could support. Then WP:BIO said NO WAY this cannot be allowed to supersede WP:ATHLETE. A couple of months down the line and someone comes along and paints the sacred cow a different colour and no-one even seems to notice except the folk at WP:FOOTY. I thought WP:FOOTYN got shot down for questioning the status-quo, I now see that this is clearly not the case as wholesale changes to WP:ATHLETE went completely unnoticed. Perhaps someone would care to explain why our hard work was dismissed so easily? EP 20:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Please see my comment above. It is all folly as described in the essay WP:CREEP. With the best of intentions rules are written faster than articles and multiplying faster than rabbits. We seem to be stuck with a few notability criteria beyond the basic WP:N because of tradition, but they just don't work. --Kevin Murray (talk) 20:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
If you have seen any recent football related AfD's you will have noticed the endless debates over the same issues coming up time and again, often ending in completely different outcomes, because of pile-on voting and different interpretations of what WP:ATHLETE actually means. the subject specific criteria were meant to resolve this inconsistency and prevent the same old policy discussions endlessly clogging up individual AfDs. The idea that our guidelines represent the tiniest fraction of the content written on football/soccer is frankly ridiculous. Football represents 3% of the articles on Wikipedia and the number of articles is growing faster than anyone can keep pace with. A few sentences of unambiguous guidelines to cover this vast subject area would be of enormous benefit to those few dedicated people who are trying to keep it under control. EP 21:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is the unambiguous policy WP:V and WP:I in conjunction with WP:N. No independent verifiable sources about the player no article at WP. The problem is that AfD is poorly run by WP:ILIKEIT principles. --Kevin Murray (talk) 21:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally I would say most of the problems stem from Admins who close AfDs by counting votes rather than using the discussion to help him to assess whether the article meets the relevant notability criteria. This problem is made worse by ambiguous criteria designed to cover all sports which just appeared one day in June 2005 and was then expanded into something almost identical to the current guideline on September 10 2005. I really cant see why something drawn up by one long gone editor nearly three years ago takes precedent over something discussed, debated and analysed by experts in the area over a number of weeks and supported by consensus. It's crazy EP 21:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Neither version seems ideally clear and unambiguous to me, but (or therefore) there seems to be no good reason why major sports should not have their own more detailed criteria. I remember from a recent AfD that Chess notability seems not very clear, and this (either version) would be little help there. Johnbod (talk) 21:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should try reviving Wikipedia:Notability (sports)? Wizardman 16:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Sports articles, and more particularly football (soccer) articles, are a consistent part of Wikipedia articles. There's no reason not to establish a notability guideline for sports-related articles, built by subject experts with a huge consensus. Thus, I support to revive Wikipedia:Notability (sports) and make it effective, including WP:FOOTYN into it. --Angelo (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I fully support this suggestion, how would we go about reviving WP:SPORTS? EP 22:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More WP:ATHLETE (Coaches)

The amateur criterion has gone from overly encompassing to almost a little restrictive. My main concern is that it would seem that any D1 college head football coach would be notable, but what I am running into is that coaches (specifically southern African-American coaches) that coached at smaller D1 schools in the 1940's-1960's aren't having secondary sources due to the climate of the time. I am considering adding a third bullet with something to the effect of "Head coaches of amateur teams of the highest level in which the programs have significant reliable secondary coverage." --SmashvilleBONK! 16:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm going to add it. If anyone wants to reword it...obviously go ahead. --SmashvilleBONK! 16:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It also occurs to me that this would apply to Olympic coaches as well, so it is now: "Head coaches of individual athletes or amateur programs who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (granted the athletes or programs have met the general criteria for secondary sources)." --SmashvilleBONK! 16:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a problem with this; it seems to allow "inhereted notability" to override a lack of sources. The community has consistently rejected inherited notability (see WP:NOTINHERITED). I am going to revert, but would welcome additional input from other editors. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
oppose. Restrictiveness is something the WP:ATHLETE guideline doesn't have so I oppose proposals seeking to further increase the reach of that guideline.⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 13:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reality TV contestants

I seem to have missed the debate on failed proposal WP:REALITY, which looks interesting. Do we have a working rule of thumb consensus on which reality contestants will or won't fail at AfD? --Dweller (talk) 10:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

My personal guideline is based on "notability is not temporary." If they will be notable 5 years after they are off the show, they I will vote KEEP. This usually means they went off to do something later or are likely to do so, or they did something that makes them more notable than other winners. For example, if participating in a show is expected to launch a TV or music career like American Idol then I would vote "keep." However, for more than half of the season winners of Big Brother (television) and Survivor (TV series) and the vast majority of non-winners I'd vote "delete" but recommend they be in some kind of list related to the show. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory WP:ATHLETE

The first bullet states that baseball players must be in a fully professional league. The next bullet includes anyone in a high-level amateur sport. Amateur sport, taken literally, includes all college baseball players. I'm sure the overall intention is to excluse the average college baseball player. Therefore, I propose tweaking the second bullet to remove this ambiguity. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That's why the "coverage in secondary sources" part was added. Some college athletes that never played professionally are still notable - Eric Crouch for instance. But every walk-on and towel boy...not so much. --SmashvilleBONK! 15:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so the correct understanding of the second bullet is that ametuer athletes are notable if there's seconday coverage about them. That being the case, "secondary sources" is an important condiditon and it shouldn't be in parentheses. How about rephrasing the second bullet to the following:

Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports and who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them.

? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stage actors

Generally speaking, the originator of a lead role can be considered notable (or, at least, that fact can be taken into consideration when attempting to determine his notability). Replacement actors -- actors who take over the role throughout the course of a show's run -- are generally not notable (unless they were notable prior to taking the role). WP:ENTERTAINER should be changed to reflect this. — MusicMaker5376 14:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I would qualify that by saying that the originator of a lead role (meaning a "starring" or major featured role) in a Broadway, West End or other large-scale professional production, can be considered notable. A replacement actor should not be considered notable for one production alone, unless the actor has a number of other important credits or is notable for some other reason. I agree that WP:ENTERTAINER should be clarified to reflect this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Actors may also be notable if they have a leading role in a notable revival. They don't necessarily have to have originated the part. This is especially true for new shows being transported back and forth between London and New York with different casts, and for actors getting nominated for major acting awards in revived shows. There have also been cases where replacement cast members have caused a media stir and in those cases, since there is independent third party coverage, it may make them notable as well. Nrswanson (talk) 02:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. — MusicMaker5376 15:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The standard for replacement actors seems quite inconsistent with the standard for athletes, who are notable merely if they "have competed in a fully professional league". Even if one reads "fully professional" in the most restrictive sense of only including the top-level professional leagues, this would still include any rookie or journeyman athlete called up on one or more occasion to play in the place of an injured veteran player. IMHO, an actor who permanently takes over a leading role in a major Broadway production is surely more notable than a rookie player for a Major League Baseball team. There are, after all, many more Major League Baseball players at any given time than there are leading actor/actresses on Broadway and other venues of similar stature. Rhsatrhs (talk) 04:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
We're talking about actors, not athletes. — MusicMaker5376 15:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I can see that we are talking about actors, and I believe that the inconsistency between the standards for actors and athletes is a relevant point. There are two ways to resolve the inconsistency: either by tightening the standard for athletes, or loosening the standard for actors. I could go either way on that myself. The one thing I don't think is appropriate is pretending that the disparity isn't important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhsatrhs (talk • contribs) 16:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Pointing out the disparity doesn't help fix it. What is your opinion on WP:ENTERTAINER? The problems with WP:ATHLETE have also been raised. You can voice your opinions there. — MusicMaker5376 16:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that what would we could do to help fix the disparity right here in WP:ENTERTAINER is to somewhat expand the list of criteria. My first concrete suggestion is to recognize a "rising star" exception to the "featured multiple times" requirement, so that an actor who, in a very short time-span, goes from community theater to a leading role in an award-winning Broadway production, even as a replacement, qualifies as notable. The same would be true for an actor making his or her debut in a major film, even if the film is a re-make and the role was therefore created by some other actor long ago. I'm sure we could come up with a reasonably tight definition of "rising star" if we put our minds to it. And hopefully, this would establish a precedent that justifies tightening the standard for athletes similarly, so that it would not recognize veteran journeymen, but would recognizing rising stars.Rhsatrhs (talk) 18:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
We're not here to recognize rising stars; we're here to recognize actual stars. That's what notability is -- actual notability, not expected notability. Your argument would imply that every actor who's played Enjolras in Les Miserables -- on both sides of the Atlantic -- in a combined run of over FORTY YEARS is notable. That's just silly. — MusicMaker5376 18:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
A rising star is an actual star if given a starring role in a major production in a major venue. He or she may not turn out to be an enduring star. Is notability a permanent condition? No, it is not. Many who pass WP standards for notability today will not be notable in 100, 10, or even 5 years. Their articles will eventually be deleted. Each of the Enjolras actors may have been notable at the time of their taking that role, and had WP existed at the time may have been deserving of an article, which would in many cases by now have been deleted.Rhsatrhs (talk) 19:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Notability is not temporary. — MusicMaker5376 20:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I find that utterly ridiculous, especially in application to contemporary figures. "Not temporary" means "lasts forever", and forever is a very long time. The idea that notability lasts forever suggests that if an article appeared in the first edition of a traditional printed encyclopedia, it would never be justifiable to remove that article from the second, fifth, or 25th edition. Who are we to pretend we know who will still be considered notable 10, 100, 200 or 1000 years from now? Does anyone actually believe that every one of the performers listed on Top-selling American Idol alumni will be considered notable by objective standards even 20 years from now? I could find loads of "List of..." type pages in WP for which the same question applies, and definitely not just amongst the entertainment-related lists. And yes, I do understand the difference between notable, famous and notorious. Even outside of vbiographies, in pure academic areas, how can we possibly pretend to know what article subjects will still be notable forever? We can't. In a huge number of cases, we can only answer the question "is this notable today?", and anything beyond that is merely an educated guess. Rhsatrhs (talk) 01:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ATHLETE is turning Wikipedia into the MySpace of athletes

English peasant correctly pointed outthat the current WP:ATHLETE was invented it was not a product of careful debate as it should have been.

Athletes who are widely known, widely acclaimed, or highly successful in their sport.
Sportspeople who have played in a [high-level] fully professional league...

That single edit, designed to appeaze sports fans, made every single professional athlete worthy of a Wikipedia article. Most of them are not notable both per definition (1)(2) and per WP:BIO, WP:ATHLETE simply makes them worthy of an article.

WP:ATHLETE is now used to succefully protect very low quality articles such as these: Ânderson da Silveira Ribeiro and Antonio Rodrigues dos Santos, both are 19 and non-notable.

Wikipedia in english has over 10,000 soccer player profiles so we are slowly becoming the MySpace of athletes. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 23:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I understand your point and share much of your concerns. I am not that familiar with the entries for other sports, so I am going to comment with focus on articles pertaining to association football. I have noticed many footballer biographies that exist here based on (apparently) a consensus that whoever has played football professionally at any point in history, is notable. Now, I would not ever compare this encyclopedia with MySpace, but I would hope that the notability considerations for athletes are taken a look and are improved, to avoid the inclusion of thousands of non-notable, unaccomplished individuals who just happen to play football for living. One simple change would be to add a rule not to accept the entry unless the subject has either 1) Played officially for a national team, at full or youth level; 2) Is playing at least his third professional season at the club level; 3) Has been direct part of a very notable achievement (e.g. scoring a goal which made history by either being crucial in obtaining a trophy or by setting some record). ----ChaChaFut (talk) 23:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Your proposal is good, but why can't athletes be subjected to just WP:BIO like you and me?⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 23:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't have a problem with that. We need hundreds of existing articles poor in content and quality (of most notable subjects who definitely deserve an entry) to be improved a lot more than we need new articles of "new" athletes --ChaChaFut (talk) 23:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there are a lot of very insignificant footballers getting articles, but I don't think Ânderson da Silveira Ribeiro is one of them, he has played in the highest tier of club football in Brazil. I would strongly oppose any attempt to bring in notability criteria that would rule out articles on some players in important leagues like the Premier League, Argentine Primera La Liga and Serie A simply because they are too young to have played 3 seasons, yet promote insignificant U-17 or schoolboy players that have never even been near a game of professional football. We already have consensus based football specific criteria at WP:FOOTYN, a fact that EconomistBR is aware of, and chose to omit from his statement. EP 23:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
It's your fault! WP:FOOTYN is merely an "advice", the template itself says: It is not a policy or guideline. You need to transform WP:FOOTYN into a Wikipedia:Notability (people) guideline because "advices" are not as relevant as guidelines. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 05:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't disagree with you either, EP. My "third season" comment/proposal was just brainstorming, please take it FWIW. But I have always wondered why so many people are OK with a guideline that appears to be designed so that whoever has played any amount of professional football at any point in history, is automatically considered notable and worthy of having his biography found in an encyclopedia. --ChaChaFut (talk) 00:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  • These professional athletes are considered notable with one professional game because of the amount of reliable sources that being an athlete accrues. This press coverage assures that they will meet the requirements of WP:BIO. matt91486 (talk) 17:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there is a huge problem with this standard. It is similar to the problem with asteroid articles. So similar, in fact, that the discussion going on at Astronomical Objects might provide some useful insight into a potential solution for this and many similar challenges that are arising with excessive articles all over Wikipedia. J293339 (talk) 22:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with EconomistBR. I don't think every single professional athlete is worthy of a Wikipedia article. There are biographies of minor crickters and soccer player. We have to do something about this. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religious Figures

There are 654 Roman Catholic bishop stubs, which, to my mind, beg the question; What are the notability criteria for religious figures? J293339 (talk) 22:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the notability criteria for religious figures would be s/he should have done something for theology. I have not worked on the biographies of religious figures. I am not the best person to answer this question. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sportspeople

How about extending the criteria to include officials as well so that the wording of each criterion would be "Competitors, coaches and officials ...". Wikipedia already has several articles about baseball umpires, hockey referees, soccer referees and the like. It seems reasonable to accept these as being just as notable as the players and coaches are. Thanks. Truthanado (talk) 01:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I know some specific Wikiprojects have their own project guidelines for referee notability, but it would be good to have this set on a larger scale as well. matt91486 (talk) 17:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Good point by Truthanado. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)