Talk:Norwegian Elkhound

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[edit] Grouping

The Norwegian Elkhound is not a "hound dog." This mistaken identity had to be changed - something Olav Wallo of Norway virtually dedicated the end of his life to, waging a lifetime campaign against the AKC for them to do the same. It does not look like a hound dog, does not act like a hound dog, and does not hunt like a hound dog. The name "Elkhound" is a mistranslation from its original Norwegian name "Elghund." In Norwegian, "Elg" means "moose;" and "hund" means "dog." Valich 05:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

In Europe, the animal most commonly hunted by the Norsk Elghund (alces alces) is called an elk, so "elk dog" is a correct translation to a European. The animal called a moose in the USA is a slightly different subspecies. Of course, an elk is a completely different animal in the USA. Vanhallaelk 21:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. My current breed of choice is the Keeshond. I wonder how they managed to escape this 'problem.' Of course, people still misspell it Keeshound and pronounce it like hound. Keesiewonder 02:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that some groups place the Elghund in a Spitz / Northern group, instead of the hound group. Is this correct? Ralphmerridew 04:38, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The FCI does (group 5 is "Spitz and primitive types"), so presumably many of the FCI affiliated clubs also keep to this categorisation. However, all the main English language clubs except the UKC have this breed in the hound group. That includes Australia and New Zealand, even though they are FCI affiliated. I've added the UKC to the table -- sannse (talk) 10:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Saying something many times does not make it so. The Elkhound is an arctic breed and is not a hound.

An Elkhound should be shown with all the other Spitz breeds for proper comparison - Keeshonds, Huskies, Malamutes, Samoyeds - and not with Dachshunds, Whippets and Beagles.Valich 03:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

"The true breakdown of all dog breeds consists of 10 groups" -- isn't this a little POV? 71.82.214.160 03:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

If it is a Norwegian breed, wouldn't it have the name "Gråhund" rather than "Grähund" (,where the first word means "grey-hound/dog")?

Because this is an English encyclopedia, the common English forms of alternative names are usually given. I have no idea whether this is correct without doing some searches (e.g., look at FCI lists for alternative names, do web searches), but I suspect it's true that many more english speakers can produce the umlauted vowel rather than the other one, which might be the reason for it. Elf | Talk 02:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
In Norwegian it's called Norsk elghund grå, which translate Norwegian elkhound gray. The colour tag is due to the fact that there exists a Norwegian elkhound black as well. However, in our spoken language, we refer to these dogs as gray elkhound and black elkhound. Outside Norway though, this could cause some confusion. Tbjornstad 14:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

In Norway it is usually called the Norsk Elghund. It is sometimes - probably never nowadays - referred to as the Gray Elkhound only when distinguishing it from the Black Elkhound ("Svart"). See below. For years Elkhound advocates have campaigned the AKC to change the name back to the original "Norsk Elghund" to no avail. Valich 05:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it is still officially called Norsk Elghund Grå in Norway, abbreviated to NEG. Visit the Norske Elghundklubbers Forbund website for the correct nomenclature. I have visited a number of shows in Norway in the last few years, and this is the name given in the catalogues and in Elghunden magazine, to which I subscribe as a member of a Norwegian elkhound club. I think, however, in general conversation Norsk Elghund would be taken to mean the greys. Vanhallaelk 22:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, My mistake on this terminology. On the Norwegian language websites, breeders in Norway use the name Norsk Elghund, Norsk Elghund Grå, or even Grå Norsk Elghund, and Norsk Elghund Sort. I'll add Norsk Elghund Grå to the list of alternative names. Any suggestions on what the English version of Norsk Elghund Sort should be? Right now it is called Norwegian Elkhound Black, but maybe it should be called Black Norwegian Elkhound in English? Don't know. Don't know of anyone who has a Norsk Elghund Sort in the U.S. either? Valich 02:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Elkhounds

Re: Solid black elkhounds are rarer.

Isn't the black Norwegian elkhound a separate breed? Ralphmerridew 02:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Only according to the FCI, near as I can tell, as noted in the Notes section of the breed table. Elf | Talk 17:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there is, and the two types are that different they have a standard of their own in the FCI system. The two breeds are likely equally old, but the black elkhound is more rare, smaller and have a more hash temper. Tbjornstad 14:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to be confusing, there is also a Swedish White Elkhound or Svensk Hvit Elghund, and a Swedish Elkhound or Jamthund. All different breeds. I've seen all four on my trips to Norway. I have the greys. Vanhallaelk 19:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

In Norway the Black Elkhound was a separate breed called the "Svart," and the citation alluding to it here has been deleted. The Black Elkhound is smaller than the grey and has a liter build. According to Nina Ross, in her book "The Norwegian Elkhound": "The dense, sleek, shiny black coat of the Svart consists of an outer coat of short black hair and a wooly undercoat. The Black Elkhound was registered as a separate breed in 1903."

The FCI lists the Norsk Elghund Grå (Norwegian Elkhound grey) and the Norsk Elghund Sort (Norwegian Elkhound black), but I'm not sure if this is the same as the "Svart." From talking with breeders in Norway, I've never heard of this distinction, and a "Norwegian Elkhound" here is the same thing as the "Norske Elghund" in Norway - grey, white and black. It must be quite uncommon or rare?Valich 05:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lifespan

I was a bit surprised to read the average lifespan of this dog is only 12 years. My elkhound lived 17 years, and her mother lived for 19, the last five of which she was blind. (mine had hip problems for the last four or five years before suffering dementia... we unfortunatly had to put her down) Anyway, are you sure this is correct?--Arkcana 21:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I envy you that your Elkhound lived 17 years and can only hope that mine lives that long. My first lived to 15: my second developed FRD and only lived till 5. I changed the article to read 12-15. I think that's the average. Valich 05:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guard Dogs

The Article on Norweigan Elkhounds states that they make good guard dogs. This has not been my experience, nor have I seen it presented anywhere else. Elkhounds are too friendly to make good guard dogs! Joemmoby 16:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)Joemmoby

It says they make good watch dogs, not that they make guard dogs. (Chihuahuas and Miniature Pinschers are also frequently listed as being good watchdogs without being good guard dogs.) Ralphmerridew 21:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FCI standard

The FCI standard for the Norwegian Elkhound Grey is on the FCI website. I'm not sure how to edit the article! Vanhallaelk 20:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Hmmm. This gets messy/tricky, doesn't it?! Two options I can think of are 1) list both standards in the info box; see the infobox at the Dachshund article for an example; 2) have 2 separate articles. Personally, I initially prefer clearly mentioning both breeds in one article, clearly listing links to each of the FCI standards. Just my 2 cents ... Regards, Keesiewonder 20:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I redirected the FCI standard to go to the Norwegian Elkhound Grey and created a new article entitled "Norwegian Elkhound Black." Under the Elkhound image where it states "The FCI divides this into two breeds, Grey (242) and Black (268), the word "Black" is now a hyperlink that goes to the "Norwegian Elkhound Black" article. I do not have enough detail, nor an image, to make this article any longer than it is. Valich 06:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Okay ... Let's see what happens. The lack of detail, images and unique content is why I prefer keeping it in one article until it has enough to stand on its own. Keesiewonder 12:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried everyway I could think of to just add it on below the existing FCI link but it can't be done. The format is integral to Wiki style. The only way to add it onto the same article would be to add two separate image holders for the links. It could be done this way but then there'd be a lot of duplication.Valich 02:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The Norsk Elghund Sort (Norwegian Elkhound Black) is considered as a distinct separate breed in Norway: I think we should classify it as a separate breed on Wikipedia. I'll add more description and detail, but I'm not too good at passing through all the rigor involved in adding photos. If someone could get an image into the article it would be most helpful.Valich 04:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Sounds like we've uncovered limitations with the dog infobox that may beg an enhancement to the box. I have run in to similar problems when trying to update links within the infobox for other breeds. I have never uploaded a photo to WP, so I'm hoping someone else is gearing up to do this. If no-one comes forth in about a week, I'll give it a shot. Otherwise, I defer to your fine efforts and reasoning. Regards, Keesiewonder 12:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I got it! Wiki Commons had a photo that I posted on the article. The Norwegian version of Wikipidea also has a separate article at http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_elghund_sort that I can translate to fill in the details. My only concern now is should I keep the article named "Norwegian Elkhound Black," or change the name to "Black Norwegian Elkhound"?

[edit] "History and evolution" section

It is inaccurate to say that the "Norsemen" or "Vikings" used Norwegian Elkhounds 6000 years ago. The group known as the Vikings only dates back to around 787 CE (Viking#Historical_records). Norsemen date to the late 8th century CE, according to Norsemen. The Germanic peoples did not even live in the area until 1000 BCE or later; Indo-European-speaking peoples probably arrived around 2000 BCE (Germanic_peoples#History). 71.82.214.160 03:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I see your point here. To alleviate ambiguity and establish congruity I replaced the word Viking with Scandinavian, reference linked to Nordic_Stone_Age#Neolithic. According to the Norseman article, "Norse refers to the Old Norse language belonging to the North Germanic branch of Indo-European languages, especially Danish, Icelandic, Swedish and Norwegian in their earlier forms." Then, according to the Old Norse article, "Old Norse is the Germanic language spoken by the inhabitants of Scandinavia and their overseas settlements during the Viking Age, until about 1300. It evolved from the older Proto-Norse, in the 8th century. "Proto-Norse (also Primitive Norse, Proto-Nordic, Ancient Nordic, Old Scandinavian and Proto-North Germanic) was an Indo-European language spoken in Scandinavia that is thought to have evolved from Proto-Germanic over the first centuries AD." The Proto Germanic article states that, "A few surviving inscriptions in a runic script from Scandinavia dated to c. 200 are supposed by many to represent a stage of Proto-Norse....Indo-European speakers are thought by some scholars to have arrived at the plains of southern Sweden and Denmark, regarded to be the original dwelling-place of the Germanic peoples, during the Nordic Bronze Age (about 4000 years ago)." The Nordic Bronze Age (also Northern Bronze Age) is a Bronze Age culture in Scandinavian pre-history, ca 1800 BC-600 BC, with sites that reached as far east as Estonia. It is generally considered to be the direct predecessor and origin of Germanic culture. It succeeded the Corded Ware culture and others to evolve into the Proto-Germanic."
There seems to be a conflict in linguistic development here, but there is also an ambiguity in the use of the word "Norseman." If the Nordic Bronze Age evolved into the Germanic; it can be argued that "Norseman" are "people from the North" or Norse, since "Old Norse is the Germanic language spoken by the inhabitants of Scandinavia." Valich 05:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It is described in the Siberian Husky and Alascan Malamute section that molecular analysis indicates that those two breeds along with "Escimo Dogs" (it does not clarify if it reffers to a specific breed or the "Spitz" in general) are an ancient offshoot of the main dog lineage and that they are more distinct and closely related to the wolf. Siberian Husky and Malamute surely resemble a wolf more than the Elkhounf does (but this may be due to their intentional interbreed with wolves) and the not-out-of-Norway theory mostly contradicts with the fact that other breeds suppossedly less ancient than Elkhound bare stronger morphological similarities with the most ancient common ancestor (proto-dogs/pariah semi-domesticated wolves). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.191.48 (talk) 10:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)