Talk:Norwegian Campaign

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[edit] Additional Resources

Oberiko 19:47, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Couple of images from Commons:

PanzerI Norway.jpg

Panzer I on parade in Oslo
Panzer2-c-norway.jpg

Panzer IIC in Norway

Harald Hansen 08:40, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weserübung

Is everyone aware of the very detailed Operation Weserübung? These should probably be merged, or have Weserubung reference this. DJ Clayworth 18:03, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, once this article is finished I'll start going about adding iLinks from other ones. Oberiko 19:10, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Allied campaign in Norway

How is the relation between the article Allied campaign in Norway and this? --Johan Magnus 13:29, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Allied Campaign is the counterattack to the German invasion, specifically the ground campaign. It would be the "Main Article" (If I don't right more in this heading then exists at the current article) of section labelled so. Oberiko
Thank you for your answer.
I do not intend to pose as stupid, but maybe I seem so anyway. :-)
Ought this article maybe be called "Norwegian campaigns" then?
--Johan Magnus 18:30, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe so as it was one continuous sequence of events. Compare this to the Western Desert Campaign or the Eastern Front where each side made advances and sebsequent counterattacks and you'll see a pretty good similarity. Another thing to consider is that official documentation (including that belonging to the UK government) refers to it as the Norwegian Campaign. Oberiko

But the German and the Franco-British campaigns can hardly be one and the same — or is my faulty English fooling me? --Johan Magnus 09:22, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, you're accurate, but every military engagement is done from two different sides, this one really isn't any different. If you're speaking about the original plans (Wilfred and Weserbung), Wilfred was cancelled almost immediately on learning of the invasion and the British spent most of the time counteracting. Oberiko 15:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Narvik and the Norwegian Campaign

Hi Oberiko. Good work on the Norwegian Campaign article. Could I get your advice on a couple of points? I recently extended the article on Narvik significantly to discuss allied operations there. However, since the WWII stuff is now 4/5th of the Narvik article I'm not sure if the detail belongs in Narvik or elsewhere. At the moment, the organization of the articles on the Norwegian Campaign is a bit of a mess, there's Norwegian Campaign and then Norwegian campaign which redirects to Allied Campaign in Norway, there is also a separate Battles of Narvik article. I think that Norwegian campaign should redirect to Norwegian Campaign that Allied Campaign in Norway should be merged with Norwegian Campaign and that an article titled Narvik in WWII or something should be created containing Battles of Narvik as well as the text I wrote in Narvik. Do you think this is a good idea?

Also, I'm not sure I agree with your statement on Operation Wilfred that that operation was designed to provoke a German response. In The Gathering Storm Churchill seems to indicate that the purpose was to stop the iron-ore shipments and prevent the Germans from going around the blockade. The primary-source texts Churchill provides support this. Churchill of course is a biased source so I was wondering if you had a particular source that said the intention of the operation was to provoke a German response. Thanks - GabrielF 21:36, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Howdy GabrielF. It's currently a mess because I planned on organizing it once I have the main article finished. The article heirarchy I think we should have would likely be as follows.
I think the Narvik article can be left as is, as AFAIK, most of the importance and reference to the city is based on its role in World War II.
Okay, I'll defer to you on the organization of these pages. Please let me know if I can be of any help. GabrielF 02:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
To be truthful, I'll be putting this campaign on the back-burner once the 'main' page here is finished; there's quite a bit on my to-do list as it is. Anywhere you can add something would help. Oberiko 02:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For the remark that it was intended to provoke a response, my main source is [1], a publishing from the U.S. Army which states: The supposition was that WILFRED would provoke German counteraction, and Plan R 4 was to become effective the moment the Germans landed in Norway "or showed they intended to do so.". I also took information from Battles For Scandinavia by John Elting which states: Operation Wilfred was finally scheduled to begin on April 8; Plan R4, Churchill confidently expected, would be triggered almost immediately thereafter.. Oberiko 22:55, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems from the quotes that the Allies expected a response but weren't necessarily hoping to provoke one. I've changed the wording a little to reflect the quotes. GabrielF 02:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I just went through the text and cleaned up a few spelling, and punctuation errors that I found, and also rephrased a few of the more awkward sentences. I have a couple of questions though regarding things: I changed "naval landings" to "amphibious landings" at one point, I assumed these are the same thing, but afterwards it occured to me that they might not be, any suggestions? Also, a lot of the dates in the article are ambiguous in terms of years. I know this probably all happened in one year (1940), however I think that the year should be given for the first date in at least every major section - for people (like myself) who have no prior knowledge of things like this, or their timeframe. Additionally, it's frustrating to go straight to, say, the Second Narvik Battle part of the article straight away, and see a date with no year, and have to search all over the rest of the article for the contextual date. --Lor 08:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

PS: Sorry about the three revisions in the history of the article...I didn't realise I had done that. --Lor

[edit] Links, Links, Links

There should be a long list of the links within the article put at the end or bottom of the article. There is no way I am going to comb through this. The See also section should be a mega-link farm. I can't find anything in this article. --McDogm 01:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I'm going to remove the merge notice, this article covers the entire campaign, the other one covers just the initial German invasion. Oberiko 15:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Important people

[edit] Norwegians

[edit] Germans

[edit] Allies

[edit] Neutrals

  • Leland Stowe: US journalist, covered the Norwegian campaign with critical articles in Chicago Daily News. His writing was credited with helping force Chamberlain out of office.

[edit] German occuption force

The current article contains the number of German occupation forces in Norway in 1944 of 400.000 (!?) While I am not an expert on this myself, I am editing it down to 40.000, as it is just blatantly unreal that you would use half a million men to garrison a country of 4 million (that's like one soldier pr 8 people) or roughly 10% of total German forces. No way. Justpedersen 07:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Way! This seems unbeliavable, but it is true. The soldiers were not all there to keep the Norwegian people in control. Hitler was personally convinced that an allied invasion of Norway was eminent. And as with many of the decisions he made contrary to advice from his generals this wasn't a very good one. There were also some plans of abandoning Germany and contiuing the war from "Festung Norwegen" in 1945.Inge 09:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Yep. It's one of the reasons why the invasion was, on balance, a mistake. Lovingboth 16:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Hitler kept a large force in Norway cause he never let go of the thought that Churchill might land there and open a new front. After the defeat of the Petsamo-Kirkenes Operation more German forces were pushed into Norway, bringing the total up to about 400,000, for most of the war it was more like 350,000. Manxruler 04:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegian Resistance

I see no mention here of the Norwegian resistance, in particular those few Norwegian nationals trained to be commandoes in England and then shipped secretly into Norway. I know that they mostly had limited success, but the Norwegian homegrown resistance, along with the Lapplanders, had what could be described as great success with helping a few of those men to survive and escape to Sweden against enormous odds, among other feats. Is there perhaps a separate page somewhere catering to this side of the Norwegian war experience? Rudy Breteler 01:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

See: Norwegian resistance movement Manxruler 04:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1944 Re-Invasion of Norway

Why is there no mention of the British landing in Norway which liberated most of the country by the end of the war.

That's a different campaign in Norway. I do agree it should be in the aftermath section. Oberiko 18:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


The british never landed in Norway after 1940. Soviet forces liberated Finnmark, but the rest of the country was not free until the germans surrendered. Thats probably why..--Njård 00:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
That depends on what you mean by landing, the British did go ashore in Norway after 1940 (Operation Archery is one instance), I do also believe some British units participated in the Norwegian liberation process, but the hand-overs and other main operations were by Norwegian MILORG and exile military units. I am not too shure about this as I can't remember where I read it, but I am sure that Norway(minus Finnmark) was not "re-invaded" (and certainly not in 1944). The Germans sourrendered and handed control over to the Norwegians (in 1945). Inge 11:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
These were just minor raids, executed mainly by Norwegians in British uniforms armed with british weapons. A re-invation, it was not...--Njård 12:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The raid mentioned above featured 1 cruiser, 4 destroyers, air support and 570 men. Of these 12 to 16 men were Norwegian. Operation Anklet was also mainly British, but several others like Operations Freshman, Grouse and Gunnerside were mainly Norwegian. I agree with you Njård that there was no re-invasion. Inge 13:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

SURRENDER?

Under the "Occupation" section it states that "Norway soon surrendered". I was under the impression that there never was a surrender as the Norwegian Government in Exile was formed. Can anyone clarify this point? rturus 17:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

TO CLARIFY THE ABOVE^^ The Official Government of Norway under Vidkun Quisling following the flight of King Hakkon officially surrendered to Germany, However the rightful government, the one recognized by the Allies, Hakkon's government, never officially surrendered. That government moved to the north and continued resistance. Also, i find it interesting that no one has mentioned in the article the name of the cruiser lost by the Kriegsmarine, the Blucher, and even more surprising is that the Altmark Incident was not mentioned, even as it took place in the same theater of operations.Tommy G 19:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

My Mistake There is an Altmark Section, Apologies

To clarify the clarification: the Quislings were never an official government, they were collaborators. Haakon VII was the name of the Norwegian king. I've done a small edit to change the text a little, to clarify that it was only the mainland army of Norway that capitulated. The Blücher has a big section in the Invasion of Norway article. This is not a very good article, but its ok for now. Maybe I'll give it a solid work over in the future, when I have the time. Manxruler 04:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to make a comment here: As Manxruler stated the Quislings never were an official government. Some places one might find stated that they were either a de facto or de jure government. Espeshially in the German wikipedia there is an emphasis on Quisling as a proper "ruler" of Norway. Some places one might find stated that the Nygaardsvold government abandoned their posts when leaving Oslo. Some even state that the Norwegian Storting asked King Haakon to abdicate. Some emphasise that the monarchy was abolished. These are in my mind disturbing signs of history being manipulated. In fact the de jure government of Norway remained the Nygaardsvold government. The de facto governmnet of mainland Norway was Terboven. Quisling was a puppet in action briefly in 1940 and then again from 1942. The constitution of Norway has no provisions stating the Government has to be in Oslo to be legitimate. The Storting gave emergency powers to the Nygaardsvold government at Elverum. The Storting never asked the King to abdicate. A few of the minor members of the Storting mainly from Høyre had remained in Oslo and was under death threats when they agreed to issue a letter asking Haakon to step down. Terboven later issued a decree were he as dictator of Norway decreed that monarchy had been abolished. This was of course unlawfull. end of rantInge 10:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegian naval losses as portrayed in the Analysis section

I would just like to mention that the list of Royal Norwegian Navy losses in the Analysis section is dreadfully incomplete. The source used there is uboat.net which has no overview whatsoever of the RNoN during the campaign. The losses were far greater that the impression given here. I have sources to correct this information and will get working on it as soon as I have sufficient spare time. Manxruler 00:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Two Possibilities

The lead into the article needs to be balanced a little. As I understand it, the British were equally as intent, as were the Germans, to occupy Norway. And in fact, the actions of the Germans pre-empted the British plan to do so. Also, if the losses and minuses of the German operation are to remain in the lead, the losses of the British should also be included. The other possibility is shortening the lead, and placing this information in the appropriate sections of the article. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The second option is definitively preferable. The Brits were planning to land at Narvik, Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger when they had hard proof the Germans were going to invade. This would in all possible likelihood not have led to war between the UK and Norway, since the Norwegian military were under order not to fire at allied forces, only at German intruders. This again led to some hesitation amongst the Norwegian defenders on 9 April as in some cases the nationality of the intruders were unclear. The losses of the Brits are already included in the main text, I'll fix the German losses in the same section. Manxruler (talk) 23:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)