Talk:Northern Maramuresh

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[edit] Title

If this article is not about Northern Maramureş, we can simply rename it. There's no need to erase it completely. I have personal connections to the region, so I guess I can help develop this article. The first thing it needs is references... Khoikhoi 20:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi, thank you very much. I hope Mikkalai will not attack again this page.
I was planning to contribute to this article with the sections I introduced. I hope other people can add more sections, because what I've listed does not cover all the topics, there are many more interesting things. And of course, I don't mind anyone copy-editing it in good faith. If I would have mind, I wouldn't put it on wikipedia. But it is logical to ask this to be done with good manners. The introduction, as is now, is just general about Maramures. Maybe this should be the first section, and we can write another introduction. It takes time, articles are not born overnight, but I'm glad this anoying last day is over... :Dc76 20:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of merger suggestion tag

I move a motion on the removal of merger suggestion on the following grounds:

  1. ) Carpathian Ruthenia is an article that talks about the region inhabitted by Rusyns, i.e. without spcifying fixed political boundaries, in the historic Kingdom of Hungary and in Austria-Hungary. Northern Maramures is an article that talks about a very specific geographic region, whose boundaries were determined politically. Northern Maramures was a component part of Subcarpathian Ruthenia (Czechoslovakia, 1920-1939), and is a component of Transcarpathian Region (USSR and Ukraine, 1946-present). One can suggest merger with these two, but it does not make sence to merge with Carpathian Ruthenia.
  2. ) However, there are other component parts of Subcarpathian Ruthenia / Transcarpathian Region, namely: Ung, Bereg and Ugocsa. I strongly believe each of them desearves a separate article, since otherwise the mother-article will be very-very big. The region will see an upsurge in turism in the next years/decades, so it makes sence to have articles not only about the big region, but about historic components. I mean, there will be a lot of information in demand, and I don't think we want one big 30-40 pages article than several smaller ones.
  3. ) I have finished a first draft for this article, and after discussion with some users, and editting, would like to upload it. It will be several pages long, and still there are topics only briefly mentioned. All the info, and most probably the exact sentances, as they are now in this article, would be included in the new version.

Please, leave your oppinion here. If ther will be on serious objections, I will remove the tag in 1-2 weeks:Dc76 23:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I do not understand why name of this article is in Romanian? If region is entirely located in Ukraine, then its name should be in Ukrainian. Does somebody know Ukrainian name for it? PANONIAN (talk) 00:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi,
  1. All English sourses either use Maramaros or Maramures. Not a single one uses Marmaroshchyna. We had a discussion about which of the two, Maramaros or Maramures, is correct to use, and although both names are used alternatively when referring to prior to 1918, and to 1940-44, I have seen mostly Maramures for later sourses. The problem with Marmaroshchyna is that English speakers who heard about the region will not understand and will not recongnize it. On the same tokken, one writes Transylvania, not Transilvania, Dobrudja, not Dobrogea, Wallachia, not Valahia or Muntenia, Bukovina, not Bucovina, Montenegro, nor Crna Gora, Hungary, not Magyarország, Syrmia, not Srem, Galicia, not Галичина (extra n), Moldavia (when refering to the principality), not Moldova, Ireland, not Eire, Bavaria, not Bayern, Munich, not Muenchen, Dniester, not Nistru, Lithuania, not Lietuva, Russia, not Rossia. Do you get my point? So, I suggest to move it back to the old name. And, for God sake, please don't try to find national discord where there was absolutely nothing of the kind meant! It is about a name and a geographic region, not about Romanian-Slav "issues".
The basic fact that some sources use variant "Máramaros" and other sources use variant "Maramureş" show that neither of those is not strongly established in English, especially not with Hungarian letter "á" or Romanian letter "ş" which do not exist in English. So, since we do not have English word for this, then English language use local names instead, no matter if such local names are different in two countries. As examples of this you can compare Komárno and Komárom or Gorizia and Nova Gorica, etc, etc. The existence of these two articles: Máramaros and Maramureş (historical region) clearly show that neither of these two names is not strongly established in English, so following same logic in which these two articles are named, this article should be named Marmaroshchyna. Also, comparing this with articles about Komárno and Komárom I do not see that Wikipedia readers would have problem to understand what about this article speak because that is explained in the article itself. This is very different case from names of Transylvania or Montenegro because last two names are indeed only names established in English for these areas, but Máramaros and Maramureş are different thing. PANONIAN (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  1. The same about Tisza, not Tysa (by the way, the Romanian name is Tisa, closer to your verion Tysa). The fact that the English name is based on the one in Hungarian does not mean that there is any Hungarian bias. So, I move a motion to move :-) this page to the old version.
  2. On a different note, this and related articles need a lot of corrections of type Velykiy -> Velykyy Bychkiv. The info in this article is combined from info from sourses in diff languages. So far, we only gathered it together, but did not yet check every name to every language and proper English sourse. It would be very nice if you could help with these kind of checks. :Dc76 12:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  3. Just to prove you that I am not only critisizing, your arrangement of the 4 maps of the historical regions on the Zakarpattia Oblast page is nice. :Dc76 12:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesting question, to be sure. Personally, I prefer "Northern Maramureş" because that's more familiar to English speakers and more standard in English. On the other hand, if it's called in Мармарощина Ukrainian, then maybe we should only call it Marmaroshchyna - the latter being in Ukraine and Maramureş in Romania. Then again, I remember a long debate a few months ago about Máramaros/Maramureş/Marmaroshchyna, and what to call the whole region as opposed to the northern and southern halves. In any event, it's a complex issue and I could live with any reasonable compromise. Biruitorul 21:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

My main (and only) objection to the new name is that it is unused, or as Khoikhoi noticed, there are zero google hits other than Wikipedia. Maramuresh (in prononciation) is also used in Ukrainian. They use interchangibly Marmaroshchyna and Maramuresh. So :
  • for an administrative name, let's use whatever was used when used (Máramaros, Maramureş County, etc), i.e. with specific language diactrics.
  • for a non-coined in English non-official name, which we here have two, Mara... (historical region) and Northern Mara..., I suggest to use names without diactrics. Hence either Maramures (historical region) and Northern Maramures, or Maramaros (historical region) and Northern Maramaros. The first three at least land good google searches, which unfortunately Marmaroshchyna (historical region) and Northern Marmaroshchyna do not. Neither does Maramuresh.
  • Whatever we choose, that is only the title of the article. We should always say something like Northern Maramures, or Northern Maramaros, or Northern Maramaroshchyna is a geographic and historic region in ...
How does that sound?:Dc76 20:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The following is an answer of User:PANONIAN on my talk page:
My concern simply was that usage or Romanian name (not strongly established in English) for region that is entirely in Ukraine is not appropriate. However, I would not object to the usage of any of 3 Ukrainian names: Marmaroshchyna, Maramorshchyna, or Maramuresh. PANONIAN (talk) 00:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I am inclining to "compromise" on Northern Maramuresh, and even Maramuresh (historical region). Problem is, I am afraid it can be qualified as original research. Anyone can sheed more light on this? At heart I still like the most simple English form, Northern Maramures, without any comma or h, but I am prepared to live with a version most agree with.:Dc76 01:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't answer earlier... Even though I am Ukrainian, I do not know much about the region and which is the most correct name. Butl ooking at the search links given on User talk:Dc76#Bocicoiu Mare, Марамуреш (Maramuresh) comes up first with 627 hits, Мараморщина (Maramorschyna) with 19 hits, and Мармарощина (Marmaroschyna) with 87 hits. I think that we should go with the most commonly used version online, Марамуреш (Maramuresh), but will agree to have Maramorschyna or Marmaroschyna if everyone else wants to have it... —dima/s-ko/ 19:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] New template

Ok, here is my proposal:

  • Use Maramures or Maramuresh whenever it has no official administrative name, i.e. Maramures (historical region) and Northern Maramuresh
  • Use more or less the following template (with subsequent additions , esp. about geographic sub-regions, mountains, rivers):
Carpathians
Carpathian Mountains Regions

Inner Western • Outer Western • Inner North-Eastern • Outer North-Eastern • Inner Eastern • Outer Eastern • Transylvanian Alps • Apuseni • South-Western • Transylvanian Plateau • Serbian Carpathians

Countries: Hungary • Romania • Slovakia • Ukraine

Geography: Carpathian Mountains • Iza Valley • Maramureş Mountains • Northern Maramuresh (geographic region) • Tisza • Vişeu Valley • Zemplén Mountains

Ethnic groups and subgroups: Boiko • Hungarians • Hutsul • Jews of Subcarpathian Ruthenia • Lemko • Romanians • Rusyn • Ruthenians • Transylvanian Saxons • Ukrainians • Ukrainians of Romania • Vlachs

History: Carpathian Ruthenia (historical region) • Kingdom of Hungary • Maramures (historical region) • Partium • Sătmar (historical region) • Transylvania • Zemplin (historical region)

1867-1918: Bereg • Máramaros • Ugocsa • Ung • Zemplín

1918-1945: Sub-Carpathian Rus (Podkarpatská Rus) • Slovenská krajina • Carpatho-Ukraine (1939) • Šarišsko-zemplínska župa (Šariš-Zemplín county, 1939-1945) • Maramureş County (1918-1938) • Satu Mare County (1918-1938) • Ţinutul Crişuri (1938-1940) • Máramaros County (WWII) • Szabolcs-Ung County • Szatmár-Bereg-Ugocsa County • Zemplén County
1945-1991: Prešovský kraj (Prešov Region, 1945-1960) • Košický kraj (Košice Region, 1945-1960) • Východoslovenský kraj (1960-1990) • Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén County • Szabolcs-Szatmár County • Image:Romania flag 1947-1989.png Baia Mare Region (1953-1960) • Maramureş Region (1960-1968) • Bistriţa-Năsăud County • Maramureş County • Satu Mare County •Sălaj County • Zakarpattia Oblast

1991-present: Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén County • Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg County • Bistriţa-Năsăud County • Maramureş County • Satu Mare County •Sălaj County • Košice Region • Prešov Region • Zakarpattia Oblast

Cultural heritage: Wooden Churches of Maramureş

Fiction: Ruritania

Well, nice job and the template would be very useful. —dima/s-ko/ 22:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The template is based on a schetch given by User:Biruitorul last November. Also, for those interested:
Some modifications (mostly stylistic) of the template.:Dc76 20:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the user who deleted the assertion "The name for Hutsul came from romanian "Hoţul" meaning thieve, because most of their time, Hutsul were thieves." I wanted to exclude it myself, because is a popular saying, not an actual etymology. Is used just for fun. Morosanul (talk) 07:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To be introduced into the article

This was taken from the Romanian version of the official webpage of Zakarpattia. Needs proper English, shorter, and into the article.

[edit] Old books

În Transcarpatia se păstrează multe cărţi vechi şi manuscrise preţioase: Evanghelia Regală (1401), Psaltirea din or. Mucacevo (sec. XIV), Evanghelia Ostrimirovo (sec. XIV), Evanghelia Moscovită (sec. XVI), Biblia rusă (sec. XV) a lui Francisc Scorini, Biblia de la Ostrog (1581), a lui Ivan Fiodorov, instrucţiuni pentru Solii lui Bogdan Hmelniţchii, Lexicon slavorus şi tălmăcirea numelor (1627 Pamva Berinda), “Evanghelia română”, “Pacea omului cu Dumnezeu ” (1661, Inochentii Ghizeli), “Gramatica rusă” (1755, Mihail Lomonosov), “Scurtă descriere a fundaţiei lui Fedor Coreatovici” (Ioanichii Bazilovici), “Evangheliile Învaţaceilor: din Neagoevsche, din Scotarsche (sec. XVI), din Iza, din Danilovo (sec. XVII), Culegerea din Sochirniţa (sec. XVII), Culegerea din Uglea “Cheia” (sec. XVII), Triod Kobâleţca Poleana (1561), Alexandria (sec. XVII): Ujgorod, Pistrealovo, Tâsiv. --- Trebuie vazut exact ce se refera la Maramures din acesta versiune romana de pe pagina regiunii Transcarpatia.

[edit] Coat of arms

The Maramures coat-of-arms noramally includes some miners in black (the color of prudence), a mine in white (the color of hope), a mountain goat (the symbol of the mountains), brazi trees (the symbol of th eforests), and other elements.

Stema Maramureşului (raioanele Mijgiria, Hust, Teaciv, Rahiv): pe scutul de forma germană sunt arătaţi mineri de culoare neagră (culoarea prudenţei) cu târnăcop în mâini la întrarea în mina albă (culoarea speranţei), mai jos apare imaginea râurilor montane sub forma unor panglici. În partea de sus a stemei imaginea caprei de munte (simbolul munţilor) iar de ambele părţi doi brazi (simbolul pădurilor).