Talk:Northern Ireland national football team

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Contents 1 ELO RANKING 2 Talk:Northern Ireland national football team 3 Requested move 3.1 Voting 3.2 Discussion 4 First game as "Northern Ireland" 5 Green uniforms 6 Selection criteria 7 What is the correct name of the UK's Olympic team? 8 Move 9 Current campaign 10 Trinidad 11 Away jerseys 12 Northern Ireland "national" football (sic) team 13 Ireland national football team (1882-1920) 14 Controversey and Sectarianism 15 Flag 16 Northern Ireland Portal selected article 17 Auto peer review: for help in the current football collaboration 18 Lawrie Sanchez is gone! 19 Northern Ireland fans lending support to Republic of Ireland team 20 MOS:FLAG 21 Northern Ireland national football team - record in major tournaments 22 Ireland national football team (IFA) 23 NIR Matches since 2000 24 Straw Polls on "Association" being added to UK and Irish football articles

[edit] ELO RANKING

I believe this ranking should be removed from the page altogether until ELO fix their ranking system because all matches prior to partition have been given over to the Republic side in their system, therefore both countrys ranking must be wrong --Ifcp1 19:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The ELO tends only to need the last 30 games for an accurate calculations, so alhough it was wrong in 1920s, it should have fixed itself by now. It is not just NI's ranking that will be miscalculated, but any team that has ever played them in the last 90 years, as the points gained to calculate an ELO rating are partially based on the number of points the opposition has. It would only really be significant for the 1920 and early 1930s. If another team has their peak position in this era then the miscalculation in the NI could mean this is wrong, I would suggest you refer the matter to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football Fasach Nua 13:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Northern Ireland national football team

[edit] First game as "Northern Ireland"

Recently, an anonymous user has been removing that information from the infobox on this page. While it is possible that "they continued to pick from all of Ireland until the 1950s and called themselves simply 'Ireland' for even longer after that", as the user suggests, as far as FIFA is concerned, Nothern Ireland exists as "Northern Ireland" since 1921. That's when Northern Ireland was formed. And the first paragraph of this article explains the history.

The point of Wikipedia is to provide information. If someone is to ask, "when is the first game played by Northern Ireland?", there is no right answer to that. Do they mean, "by Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland" or "by the team representing the Irish Football Association"? That's why both dates are given; both are important matches in the team's history. For similiar situations, see Israel national football team and China national football team. --Dryazan 17:46, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's the point. When they played in 1921 they weren't known as Northern Ireland. Yes, there was now a political entity called Northern Ireland following the rest of Ireland leaving the UK, but as far as everyone was concerned, the team still represented all of Ireland and as such was still known as 'Ireland' (as the rugby union team still is today). It wasn't until 1926 that what is now known as the Republic of Ireland team first played, but they too first called themselves 'Ireland' (they were run by the Football Association of Ireland who were set up as a direct rival to the Irish Football Association). Net result: both teams claimed to represent all of Ireland. It was not until 1946 that the boundaries were sorted out and the older team was designated as representing Northern Ireland and the younger the Republic of Ireland. It then took until 1950 for the rules to be changed, making it that only Northern Irish players could play for Northern Ireland and that only Irish Republic players could play for the Republic of Ireland.

So basically, the issue is not as clear-cut as you make out. I agree entirely that when writing about these things historically we should assume that Ireland became Northern Ireland in 1921 and the Republic of Ireland team started in 1926. However, it is misleading to put the 1921 game as a historic event because it wasn't. As far as everyone was concerned, it was just another game for Ireland. - 81.174.247.96 16:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should add the 1946 and/or 1950 games then, with proper explanation in the body of the article. --Dryazan 01:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Recently shown on BBC's Best Night, they said Northern Ireland was known by FIFA as Ireland in 1967, the match coverage and programmes from the game advertise it as Ireland v Scotland.

Acording to "the 125 year history of the IFA", published by the IFA, the team started out as Ireland, then became Ireland(IFA), and Ireland (FAI) after partition, and FIFA ordered the 2 teams to change their names in June 1954. Although I do recall seeing match programmes produced much more recently with both NI & ROI being referred to as IrelandFasach Nua 19:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The FAI's official online history dates the intervention by FIFA to 1953, but has more or less the same facts. No mention of 'Ireland (IFA)' and 'Ireland (FAI)' as disambiguation terms though. [1] --Kwekubo 20:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Green uniforms

I'm surprised the team wears green uniforms. Is this controversial? I thought green was strongly identified as a Catholic/Nationalist color. Funnyhat 08:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's true, but green is also the traditional colour of Ireland. Since the Northern Irish football team originally represented all of Ireland (as all of Ireland was part of the UK back then), green was the natural choice of colour. - 81.174.247.96 16:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense. To switch away from green when it had been established would have definitely been contentious. Funnyhat 03:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Rather bizzarly, the colour changed from blue to green after partition in 1931!

Of the political entity yes, but not the football team. What were the FAI colours at the time? Timrollpickering 00:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The colours are wrong for the uniform. The NI kit has recently changed, the page should reflect that change. TheWickerMan 15:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selection criteria

This edit seems baseless. From this offical history at the FAI website:

1950 was also the year that the problem of players playing for both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland was finally solved, with FIFA directing both Associations to only pick players from within their own boundaries. FIFA were also to clear up another matter in 1953, when they ruled that the FAI's team would be known as the Republic of Ireland with the IFA's side being called Northern Ireland. Up to that point, both Associations referred to their teams as 'Ireland.'

--Kwekubo 04:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The FAI doesn't even limit itself to Ireland when choosing players, let alone just the Republic. I distinctly recall a player being booed as a "Fenian traitor" (i.e. he came from the northeast but had "betrayed" the six counties by playing for the Republic) by a section of fans during an inter-Ireland game only a few years ago, although I can't remember his name right now.

Lapsed Pacifist 05:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The FAI cannot select parents who are not from the Republic of Ireland - FIFA rules will not allow it. They can, however, exploit the rules that allow for people to qualify for the a country if their grandparents (for example) were born there. - Green Tentacle 22:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The IFA is allowed to select players from the whole of Ireland for the home internationals, (something which it has never done since 1950), I suspect that is because they were not technically competitiuve matchs, anyone know for sure? Fasach Nua 19:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

How do FIFA rules handle issues like partition and boundary changes? If one's grandparents lived pre partition would the counties they were born in determine which team one could play in or would they be eligible for either? Timrollpickering 00:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are partially right, if your grandparents were born pre-partition, then you are eligiable for both of the new(sic) associtaions. If memory serves the IFA uses parents and FAI uses grandparents for their qualification criterian, hence the FAI tends to have more players across the island than the IFA. I dont think it's quite as simple as that there are passport rules, and other funny anomolies too. Fasach Nua 21:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm - could the IFA change its rules to include grandparents and embark on a "Find All Irishmen" type search to boost the Northern Ireland side's fortunes? Timrollpickering 21:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

There was talk of doing this in the 1990s during the republic's teams hay day. I think the IFA wanted to keep the team a local team with local players, rather than have the influx of players with questionable Irish connections as the Republic had. As partition disappears further into the past, there are progressively fewer and fewer people under the age of 35 whoes grandparents were born prepartion, and so maybe the argument is gradually becoming less relevant. 20:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The current FIFA rules on this are quite clear. A person can only play for a country of which they are a citizen (citizenship laws do, of course, vary between countries and certain players exploit this). People with dual citizenship can play for either country. There are a lot of people with dual British and Irish citizenship, hence the Find Any Irishmen campaigns of the past. Once a player has played for one country at senior level, they cannot play for another (even if they renounce their citizenship and become a citizen of somewhere else).

As a side-note, the rule is complicated with regards to the UK (but not the Republic of Ireland) as the UK has four teams, but only one nationality (British). The rule here (bashed out by the Home Nations' football associations) is that a player can play for whichever Home Nation they were born in, their parents were born in or their grandparents were born in. If someone qualifies for nore than one Home Nation (say they were born in England, but their mother was born in Wales), then they can pick. Players born in Crown Dependencies (such as the Channel Islands) can also pick which Home Nation to play for. - Green Tentacle 00:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the correct name of the UK's Olympic team?

Is the UK's Olympic team "Great Britain" or "Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

see Cfd discussion: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Great_Britain_at_the_Olympics_to_Category:Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_at_the_Olympics --Mais oui! 22:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I propose to move this page to Northern Ireland soccer team. There is more than one type of football played in the region, and the use of the word "national" is contentious.

Lapsed Pacifist 14:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

All of the teams under Category:European national football teams are in the style "country national football team" so this maybe worth baring in mind. Djegan 19:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore the term "nation" (as the root of "national") is not by any means the same as "state". Many teams in the category are not states, but nonetheless have a national football team. Djegan 19:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Djegan, also considering that the org that supports the team is also know as Irish Fotball Assn. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 02:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

"Football" bothers me more than "national". Even the Northern Ireland Office acknowledges that the GAA is the biggest sporting organisation in the region. To write "football" as if there was only one kind being played is insulting.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not keep up on what the GAA do, but my understanding is that they do not field any national teams in any of their games and matches? Theirfore "national football team" could not be applied to them in any valid way as we are not comparing like-to-like — if it was county or provincial then that would be a different matter. Djegan 16:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes they do. Ireland play Australia every year in the compromise rules code.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

But this article is about Northern Ireland not Ireland or Australia. Djegan 21:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Soccer is an unambiguous word. Football is not. I can't understand why this is contentious.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Because it is a straw man arguement. Djegan 21:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

You've lost me.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

You still have to make any substantial points that would prove their is a case for ambiguity, if you dont know the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland then you have not lost me - your simply warring. Djegan 21:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course I know the difference between the north of a country and the whole of it. You thought the GAA did not operate at international level, and I increased the sum of your knowledge. Go to the football article, and see why the term is ambiguous. You and I know the six counties don't have a team for any other kind of football. But other users may not. What I don't understand is why you don't like the word soccer.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

So, as you have shown, their is still no substantial requirement for moving the article, it is clearly understood what is meant when the terms “Northern Ireland national” and “football team” are used togetheir; it can only mean one thing, theirfore it follows that it is not ambiguous. As for introducing soccer that just introduces an additional and unneccessary word; that it the test. Djegan 22:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

See United States men's national soccer team for an example. The USA does not field an international American Football team as far as I know. In the USA there is a form of football that is way more dominant than soccer. Many people in the USA refer to football (FA rules) as 'soccer.' All of these characteristics apply to Northern Ireland. If you're going to insist on the NI team's page having 'football' in the title then you'll have to do the same for Uncle Sam. --Eamonnca1 16:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You're about as clear as granite, DJ.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current campaign

Why a current campaign section? Is Wikipedia a fixture list now? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trinidad

Is NI the smallest country to qualify for the world cup? The population of T&T is given as 1,305,000 in the wikipedia, anyone know the NI population in 1958? Fasach Nua 23:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

They were the smallest country to quality until T&T, as stated in the article. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 07:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Away jerseys

The shop at the IFA website has for sale both an "Away Short Sleeved Jersey" (white with green trim) and an "NI Away Short Sleeved Jersey" (blue with white trim). I cannot say that I have ever seen NI playing in a blue jersey; which of the two is the current away top? Or is the situation similar to, for example, Ghana, who used yellow home and white away jerseys until this year's world cup when FIFA decided the colours were too similar? --Kwekubo 16:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Strangely I was in JJB in Ballymena yesterday and noticed the blue Northern Ireland tops. I believe, as Fasach Nua said on the edit summary, it is supposed to be Saint Patrick's blue. No idea if the change had anything to do with FIFA.   theKeith  Talk!  17:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In the qualification for the 1994 world cup, NI had a Blue away strip, which they wore once(?) when playing away to some other team in dublin. It was criticised for looking like a butcher's apron and the IFA vowed never to use anything other than white for an away strip again Fasach Nua 02:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The old (2006 campaign) away kit was white with green trim, the new (2008 Euro) away kit is blue. No idea why the colours changed, but there's always been some blue on the NI kit, as distinct from the ROI kit

Idunnomeself

The original home strip used o be blue, maybe that has something to do with it? --Fasach Nua 20:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

To clarify this matter - the blue kit was the designated away strip when Northern Ireland started in the Euro 2008 qualifiers, and was worn in the away fixture in Denmark. A new white away kit (currently presented as the away kit in the article) was introduced in mid-2007, and was used in the final qualifying match in Spain. Jonzi9 (talk) 17:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland "national" football (sic) team

Impossible. Ask, for example, the following unionist organisations: The Church of Ireland; The Presbyterian Church in Ireland; The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland.... This latest attempt to give historic legitimacy to the last remnant of the British Empire in Ireland is just as futile as the rest of them. One siege- indeed centuries of sieges- does not make a nation. El Gringo 18:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the standard naming format on Wikipedia for all teams fielded by member associations of FIFA. -- Arwel (talk) 23:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The government seems to think otherwise, Gringo. Consider the following non-unionist organisations and/or establishments: the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Assembly, Northern Ireland Tourist Board... Northern Ireland is a constituent country; see the article of the same name. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland national football team (1882-1920)

There has been an article with the above title created, which is very relevant to this article, on the off chance someone missed it's creation 08:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversey and Sectarianism

I've removed a bit of text from this section that says that NI fans are sectarian because they support Rangers. Firstly, I'd have thought that NI fans would be more inclined to support local soccer teams. Second, the definition of 'sectarian' is not 'he who supports Rangers.' I've tightened up some of the English in there as well. --Eamonnca1 02:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag

A perennial point of controversy at Talk:Northern Ireland has been the use of the Ulster Banner to represent NI. There was a fairly interesting discussion recently at Talk:Celtic F.C. which relates to this and I think the matter is settled for now at keeping the use (per UEFA) of the flag to represent the NI team. I thought it possible that some reading here might be interested in the discussion we have had. --Guinnog 18:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

And per FIFA too it seems, see [2] --Guinnog 18:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

When did the Ulster Banner first get used to represent the IFA team? If they were "Ireland" till 1950, what flag did they use before then? Perhaps the home nations didn't use flags or anthems at their matches in the way they do in rugby. In which case, the first use of the flag was probably 1957-01-16 in Lisbon against Portugal in 1958 FIFA World Cup qualification#UEFA Group 8. And on a related note, has God Save the Queen been played before every match, and/or has any other anthem ever been used? jnestorius^(talk) 20:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the Ireland^C32 flag would have been Saint Patrick's Flag (as used in this article), between partition and 1950 the Ireland^C6 team would possibly have used it also. It should be noted that the Government of Northern Ireland was granted arms in 1924, and from then a banner of arms could have been used. Anthem wise I don't have a clue! I can't really think of any UKoGBaI Irish anthem. My guess would be that GSTQ has been used by the IFA for all Internationals. « Keith t·e » 20:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldnt be sure any flag was used at the early stage, the usage of flags/anthems is part of a FIFA directive, Im not sure the home championships were ever externally regulated, (domestic football generally doesnt use anthems) even if the directive had been enforced at that time. The IFA are in the process of gathering old photographs from IRL/NI international games for publication, which may shed some light on this issue! On an aside, when did "Northern Ireland" get incorporated into the badge? 86.12.249.63 21:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there was trouble at a Dublin IFA international c.1913 which related to nationalists wanting to fly the tricolour instead of the union jack. jnestorius^(talk) 22:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland Portal selected article

Considering the team has done quite well in Europe thus far, this might be an opportune time to recruit support for improving the article, and including it (after improvements) in the Northern Ireland Portal. --Mal 02:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Auto peer review: for help in the current football collaboration

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[edit] Lawrie Sanchez is gone!

I just heard on the news this morning that Lawrie Sanchez has resigned as manager! Edits to the page will have to be made. Leemorrison 13:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland fans lending support to Republic of Ireland team

I removed the link, ie this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2049155.stm, which was used to prove the following statement:

"It is not unknown for Northern Ireland supporters to adopt the Republic of Ireland as their second team when they are not in direct competition"

The above link does not back this up in any way at all, the only slight mention is of some Northern fans giving sympathy to the Republic fans after the 2002 world cup. This does not imply adopting the Republic of Ireland as their second team.

Thus i have removed the link and placed a citation tag. Mabuska 18:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MOS:FLAG

The flag used for the team pre 1954, in my opinion braches the manual of style. The flag depicted is one of many flags associated with Ireland, the only flag flown at Ireland internationals was the Union flag (as they played in the Home nations), and choosing one flag over the rest is WP:OR. I have removed all the flags, on the historic results section. Fasach Nua 15:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland national football team - record in major tournaments

I've copied the current campaign stuff here, maybe something along the lines of Republic of Ireland national football team - record in major tournaments. Fasach Nua (talk) 10:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland national football team (IFA)

I have moved the discussion of the Ireland national football team (IFA) from here to Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA)#This Article. It relates more closely to that article than this one, and I want to avoid the danger of duplicating or splitting the discussion across two pages. The issue is of interest to anyone interested in this article, as it asks:

• should there be a separate article? if so:
  • does it need to be more explicit about its terms of reference?
  • what information in this article should be moved to that one?

All comments encouraged on that Talk: page. jnestorius^(talk) 20:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NIR Matches since 2000

Why not have a hyperlink about the NIR Matches since 2000 because if you luck at David Healy's Carrer and missed matches it is all the matches that NIR have played since 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.118.172 (talk) 19:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Im not keen on having this section, there is a seperate article (under construction) on major tournaments. I think nothing more than the current campaign can be justified, and even then I would say that would be excessive! Fasach Nua (talk) 18:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Straw Polls on "Association" being added to UK and Irish football articles

There is a straw poll at Talk:Association football in Northern Ireland on whether the word "Association" should be in "Association Football in Northern Ireland". --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)