Talk:Northern Epirus

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Can we please maintain some neutrality about this article? It is ridiculous to mention Northern Epirus everywhere Albania is mentioned. There are Greek minorities in the region, but this does not make it part of the territory of Greece. As far as the treatment of the minorities goes, if the Greek minorities in Albania were treated like the Albanian minorities in Greece, Greece would probably declare war on Albania. I have friends who live in some of these villages of southern Albania and they would consider themselves to be of Greek descent. They do speak Greek and Albanian, and although they are not loved by the rest of the Albanians (due to relations with Greece), they are not mistreated. At the same time, there are many more Albanians (having been born in Albanian territory, who consider themselves such, are seen as such by the Albanian government, do not speak Greek, etc) and it would be entirely wrong to classify them as Greeks simply because the Greek government and population desires it. Dori 17:44 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

-It's only fair to take into consideration Greece's right to land claims in Epirus when Albanians do the same for land in Yugoslavia.(ie:Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia)

-I agree. If Albanians want a greater Albania, they should relinquish where the majority of people speak Greek or have a Greek conscience (in the case of many Vlachs). The current boundaries of the state of Albania, drawn by the Great Powers of the day to serve their interests, do not reflect the reality of today and need to be redrawn. ^^^^ptsourkas

- The fact that the number of Albanians living in Greece has increased from virtually nil in 1990 to nearly 1 million today shows that they are well treated and welcomed by Greece. Nearly all of them have jobs and, even though they are recent immigrants, they fully participate in Greece's generous social security system, and in the nearly free healthcare system. By contrast the ethnic Greek population of Northern Epirus (representing in 1990 some 20% of the total population of Albania) has dwindled in numbers in the past decade due represssion fueled by the nationalism of the Albanian government. Let us not forget that Albania is a country with a questionable human rights record and inconsistent application of the rule of law. By contrast, Greece is a full fledged democracy that earned EU membership 25 years ago.

Do the Albanians really use the expression "Northern Epirus"? It surprises me a bit, honestly.--Aldux 13:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed it. i had not noticed it earlier. the Albanian government rejects the usage of that term, with the pretext that it implies territorial claims. quite the contrary, they use the term 'Tsamouria' for Epirus by implying nationalistic claims. since the term 'Northern Epirus' is the one used by the greeks and, in some cases, in the english-speaking world (not sure about other languages), the term in Albanian is not relevant here. About the citation u asked concerding the fact that the region is predominantly Greek Orthodox, i can't really understand if it can be disputed: the greek minority (whether it numbers 3% or 12%) is concentrated there. the Aromanian minority (also greek orthodox, and included in the 12% figure that i said above) is also there. the Tosk albanians (a great number of whom is greek orthodox) resides in the albanian south, while the predominantly muslim Ghegs live in the north... i doubt if someone can say the opposite. --Hectorian 13:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
About the Albanian name, OK. About religion, it remains unsourced, and could easily be untrue. Personally, I believe that the majority are atheist. I'll remove it until it is sourced. --Telex 14:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hectorian, less than 2/3 of Albanians in Albania are Tosk. Orthodox accounts for 20% of the population, and Catholicism for 10% (mostly in the North), so please do not act as if you know something when you in fact know nothing. And by the way Albanians are not part of the Greek Orthodox Church, but The ALBANIAN Orthodox Church, founded by Fan Noli because a GREEK Orthodox priest refused to officiate at the burial of an Albanian in Hudson, Massachusetts on the grounds that, as a nationalist, the deceased was automatically excommunicated. --PG-Rated 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Isn't this article going a bit astray?

Don't misunderstand me, its much better than before, but it's also getting out of topic. Wouldn't it be better to reduce this articles and create a Minorities in Albania? Much of the content of the article goes well beyond Northern Epirus, as Greco-Albanian relations or the Greek minority in all Albania.--Aldux 22:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Flag of Greeks in Albania

Why is the Albanian two headed eagle randomly placed on the flag? They are Greeks right? --PG-Rated 22:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll remove the flag. What is often perceived as the flag of the Greek community in Albania (e.g. [1]) is in fact the flag of the government of Northern Epirus [2]. The double-headed eagle on the flag has nothing to do with Albania, but it is a popular symbol amongst Greeks (for example, it appears on the emblem of the Greek Army and used to be on the national emblem etc).--Tekleni 22:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Flag

The double headed eagle happens to be the old flag of the Empire of the Greeks or as it was known in western Europe Imperium Graekaorum. (Nowadays known as Byzantine Empire, a term never used by any "Byzantine"). So that's why the double headed flag is so important to Greeks, it's the national medieval symbol of Greece as a nation.

The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona

No Dodona. The Byzantine empire prosecuted the Byzantines (or Romioi, or Greeks or whatever you want to call them) that "Elinizane" meaning the pagans or people trying to bring back the old religion. That is why Emperor Ioulios (or Julius) was called the "paravatis" (or outlaw) and Theodosios was called the "o megas" (the great). [[[User:Nefeligeretis|Nefeligeretis]] (talk) 03:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)nefeligeretis]

Pelasgians are Pelasgians not greek,not albanian The firt bicephalous eagle was founded in Asia Minor Hittite

[edit] Flag agin

To the anons who keep adding a makeup flag, please note the following: what you are adding is not the flag of the Greek community; the Greek community does not have a flag. What you are adding is the flag of the provisional state of Northern Epirus (see [3]) and it did not include the Albanian double headed eagle, it was the Byzantine eagle. I agree that the flag of the temporary state should be included if we include data on it. See also the other posts on this page. //Dirak 14:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona

[edit] Recent Edit

Permission has been given to reproduce text from Phantis. Permission can be shown on request.

Regards,

Φilhellenism 14:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fundamental bias

“Orthodox Christian Albanian-speaking Greek-identifying community in Greece – migrated from this region to present-day Greece in the Middle Ages.” Are originally Albanian which came from Epir therefore autochthones there. The epir has nothing to do with Greeks no mater how Arvantas identify themselves.Dodona —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.78.74.68 (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Territory or what?

This article doesn't seem to be about a region at all; it's wholly concerned with an ethnic community, viz. the local Greek minority. What are the boundaries of this region? What are its main towns, area and population, sites of interest, main rivers and mountains? Can we see a map of the region? Best, Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] concerned about the neutrality in this article

This article sounds like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. What is North Epirus? Who is the president? I have marked this article as NPOV, since it contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies and has a completely pro-Greek wording which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. We should present facts neutrally and not praise one people or another.--Thank you.MD.Brian (talk) 05:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Its referenced and presents many views from both parties and third parties regarding the populations involved.Megistias (talk) 08:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. Would you care to elaborate on your claim that the article is not neutral? The article nowhere calls for the unification of Northern Epirus with Greece. It doesn't even imply that. So how does it sound "like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece"? Epirus is a geographic region in the Balkans. The southern part is called Southern Epirus, the northern part is called Northern Epirus. Like North and South America. Simple as that. It is not a country, so it does not have president (although it was an independent state between 1918-1923). You also state that the article contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies. Could you give a few examples? And what about the claim of "completely pro-Greek wording"? Examples, please. The article essentially covers the Greek minority in Albania. The existence of this minority is a fact, despite the most determined attempts by the Albanian government to minimize it as much as possible. Here's what the article does state: In the introduction, the article defines the concept of northern Epirus, and what it is most known for (the foustanella, and the Arvanites). Following this, the article discusses the definition of the Greek minority by the Albanian government, as well as its relation with the Vlach minority (who do indeed identify as Greeks. See relevant article). No bias so far. The next few paragraphs present the various estimates regarding the size of the minority. All sides are presented, including the dubious numbers of the Albanian government (you will notice there is actually no recent census figure, as the Albanian government deliberately omits questions on ethnicity or ethnic consciousness on the census in order to deny the existence of minorities). So this section cannot be accused of bias either. Next, the article discusses the political treatment of the minority, including all relevant incidents and the somewhat heavy-handed response of the Greek goevernment. This is discussed in a calm, objective manner, with neutral wording, and thus this section also seems pretty neutral to me. The article then discusses how the existence of the Greek minority has affected the relations between Greece and Albania, and again does so in a neutral manner. The article then highlights some famous memebers of said minority. Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere, does it praise one people over another. Where do you see evidence of that? There are minorities in most countries of the world, and Albania is no exception. It just so happens that this minority happens to be Greek (maybe because they're neighbors?). It seems to me that from what you wrote and the tone you use, that you are somehow opposed to the notion of a Greek minority in Albania. That is irrelevant to this article. You added the neutrality tag, so the burden of proof is on you to provide examples of bias in the article. If you fail to do so I will remove it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 09:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fillim i ri - Νέο ξεκίνημα.

Me too,I think it did sounded like a right-wing Greek nationalists (not the real Greeks) favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. Go watch [4] shows Greek crimes (which in my opinionate are Greek nationalist criminals) in Epirus against Ethnic Arvanites - Albanians. Epirus was part of Albanians and Greeks. Let’s add more friendship between these two nations, not the war and not the hate. In some way is better for Greece too, you never heard of Albania invading Greece,maybe the Italians. We have so much in common, maybe we have the same ancestors, who knows, we have fought together side by side.(at least my great grandpa and his dad did) --Taulant23 (talk) 20:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC) p.s.I make the best souvlaki and tzatziki ever.

How about making an attempt at correcting what you think is wrong with the article instead of posting irrelevant messages about 'Greek nationalist crimes' and 'Greek-Albanian friendship'? Sure, good sentiments (let's pretend, despite your general behaviour) but still irrelevant. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The existence of a Greek (and Greek-idnetifying Vlach) minority in the southern regions of Albania, especially in the areas of Himarra, Saranda, Gjirokastar, Permet, and Korce is a fact, pure and simple. Before we continue, this has to be accepted and understood. To deny the existence of this minority and make noise about "Greek nationalist crimes" in some YouTube video is in itself nationalism, as well as a diversion. The only debate, as far as I'm concerned, is over the size of said minority (which is admittedly tricky to estimate). I do not understand why some Albanian editors feel so threatened by the existence of a Greek minority in southern Albania/Northern Epirus (which I use SOLELY as a geographic expression, no offense to anyone). The Greek government has never, ever, called for the annexation of the Greek minority areas to Greece, and neither does this article. As far as I know, most Greek people are against opening the can of worms of border changes, and only wish for the human rights of the Greek minority to be respected, as should be the case in a country that desires to become a member of the EU. The current treatment of the Greek minority in Albania by the Albanian government is unfair to say the least and reveals an intense paranoia. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


I was trying to be nice, as I said Νέο ξεκίνημα, that's all but I guees it does not work.

As far as for the article, I think you 3rdAlcove did a good job, first by taking that flag of, it has nothing to do with North Epirus but with chauvinists Greek who want to invade southern Albania(like they did 1913-1914). If you talk about North Epirus, please do not forget to edit the massacres that their Greek bandits did to the Albanian population.

In my opinion and what I have listen to the elders, in southern Albania,the Greek minority was not that big to start.Since some of the Albanians wore Orthodox, the Greek government wanted them to joy the so called Vorio-Epiri organization,gave them money to convert to "A GREEK identity", and funny but propaganda,to paint their houses blue and white, like the Greek flag. In two March 1914, with the blessing of Greek government and Mr. Zografos as the Prime Minister, they declare INDEPENDENCE of North Epirus.I would give one advice, leave the nationalistic ideas out of here, because, more you guys dig the history of North Epirus, more it will bring out the horrible stories of the massacres, that Greek bandits did to the Albanian population --Taulant23 (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


p.s. by the way Georgios Christakis Zografos was Greece minister for foreign affairs, get that….

[edit] A very interesting map

[[5]], from Le Monde Diplomatique, a highly respected and reliable French newspaper. The legend for the diagonal orange stripes read "Areas of Greek majority]]. I propose inserting the map in the article, let me know what you think. May also be applicable in the Albanians and Greater Albania articles. --Tsourkpk (talk) 08:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, lets use it. It's from a reliable source. Helladios (talk) 08:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Actual number of the Greeks

Cia factbook World Factbook, 1994 says 3% and Defense Academy of the United Kingdom says that this is "although this is a highly contentious question".Also that numbers had been intentionally lowered since the communist regime ". However, the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages

in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."Megistias (talk) 19:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

But this number was 8% by the same agency a year before.CiaMegistias (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unrecognised region???

As far as I know, Northern Epirus is a historical region. Current Albanian state has no official region called Northern Epirus and also the region is not de facto administered by Greeks either. Therefore I suggest the removal of Northern Epirus from the "Non-sovereign territories of Europe" box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiturk (talk • contribs) 12:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. I shudder to think how Greek editors would react if somebody tried to add that template to Aegean Macedonia, Çameria, or Western Thrace. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
In uk source"The most visible focus of the Berisha government’s fear of Greek irredentism was the NorthernMy wa Epirus Liberation Front (MAVI), which claimed responsibility for the car bombing of Albania’s ambassador to Greece in 1991 and was accused in 1994 and 1995 of orchestrating attacks on Albanian border posts and military 22 personnel." It is contested under the table at least.Megistias (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


Just because there are some irridentist idiots it is not a "territory" in the sense of that template. The template is for territorial units that have some real administrative status, either as dependencies of some other state (like Gibraltar) or as unrecognised de-facto-states. It is not for areas that are simply the object of irridentist claims by whoever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm also removing the {{country}} infobox. Northern Epirus isn't a country. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
" It is not clear to what extent MAVI was a significant political and paramilitary formation rather than merely a fanatical splinter group. At the time, the Albanian government claimed that Greek army and secret police personnel were involved in the attacks. The name is adopted from the wartime Northern Epirot organisation which fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country." and "Greek press suggested that the Greek secret service may indeed have been either involved with the organisation or had overlooked its activities. At the same time,a former Greek government minister, Theodoros Pangalos, admitted that the Omonia Five had “very probably been linked” to MAVI. See Sullivan, op cit, p16." and "a MAVI raid on an Albanian army barracks in 30 which two Albanian soldiers died."Megistias (talk) 22:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
What are you trying to show with these quotations? You haven't answered at all the point I raised. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
That its contested under the table.What would i be trying to show?Megistias (talk) 22:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
My point was that "being contested" doesn't bring it into the scope of that template. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok then what would be?.And open demand by the prime minister?.And you removed my previous answer.Megistias (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Oops, sorry about the previous removal, there was a confusing edit conflict. As to your question: It would come under the scope of the template if it had a de facto existence as an autonomous or semi-independent unit of government. Not claims. Real political organisation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
this?Megistias (talk) 22:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No. What is so difficult to understand about "real political organisation"? Government. Administration. Actual control of the territory on the ground. Factual exercise of the powers of a state. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Then remove it.Megistias (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dab link?

Is there any particular reason the top of the page has a disambiguation link to a non-existing dab page Voreia Ipiros (disambiguation)? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I didnt put it there.

[edit] Latest edit

Latest edit removing Greek diaspora and minorities should be reverted.editMegistias (talk) 09:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone revert itMegistias (talk) 10:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV?

It seems like this article is written by someone who has some, at least, affiliation with Greeks or Greece. Note: "with Greek products accounting for some 21% of Albanian imports, and 12% of Albanian exports coming to Greece," Furthermore, the gallery only lists Greek notables and not any Albanians who were born in the region. This is about a region right? Shouldn't we mention a couple important cities? Because if this were about the Greek minority in Albania, than we should merge it with Minorities in Albania, or Greek minority in Albania. - PG-Rated (talk) 02:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This is about Greeks in albania and mainly on the Issue of northern epirus that is now closed.Megistias (talk) 21:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The imports/exports is referenced in the page.Megistias (talk) 21:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flag

Why was the double headed eagle flag removed?

The Greeks of Northern Epirus have their own flag, just like the Albanians of the FYROM have their own.

Φilhellenism 00:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The image was deleted because its copyright status was unclear. I guess it could be re-added if it could be sourced properly and if there was serious encyclopedic documentation of who used it when and where and in what capacity. I would not want to have it at the top of the article, where it would imply a degree of recognition of the irridentist concept as if Northern Epirus was an actual state of politically constituted territory. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious to know what the flag of the Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia is. Because they're not using it. BalkanFever 10:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps he meant Kosovë, with its rip-off of the Bosnian flag. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Bosnia and Cyprus. BalkanFever 10:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I never thought of that. Silly me. I'm actually rather surprised the Kosovo Albanians accepted anything other than the red-and-black rip-off of the Byzantine emblem. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
They kind of weren't allowed to. Apparently Kosovo is multi-ethnic, and the flag needed to represent that, or something like that. BalkanFever 10:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
A good thing too.We wouldn't want to violate Byzantine copyright laws twice...Amenifus (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
LOL@Kosovo being "multiethnic". Yeah, I'm sure the 3 Serbs and 2 Roma left are loving the new flag sick. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, it has actually become the symbol of the Kosovo Albanians, despite its origins. They're the only ones happy about independence. The Serbs for obvious reasons keep the flag of Serbia, and I don't think the Gorani, Turks, Ashkali, Egyptians and Bosniaks care either way.
The poor Roma might have something to say, though. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, according to Gorani (ethnic group): "In 1999 and over the years altogether, over 6,500 Gorans have fled to Serbia proper along with many Serb and Romany refugees." ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
And Ashkali: "However, there were reports of mass expulsion of Ashkali along with Roma from Kosovo that took place after the war." ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe the Albanians are trying to assimilate all the other Muslims, so I wouldn't blame them for leaving. BalkanFever 10:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Assimilate muslims?Hardly.I doubt muslim Bosniaks or Gorani would identify as Albanian.Amenifus (talk) 11:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Last few sentences

"the Greeks continue to suffer", and "becoming aware that in the near future they will seek independence"?Isn't that just a little too much POV-ish?Amenifus (talk) 09:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
How did that manage to slip in there? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone remove it.(A Greek user preferably)Amenifus (talk) 09:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Why, are you incapable? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
You don't miss a chance, do you?I merely wish to see if all Greek users share that opinion.Amenifus (talk) 09:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia. You have to WP:be bold, my friend! ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Bold I am, disrespectful I am not.I can be bold when the situation calls for it but prefer cooperating to edit-warring.Amenifus (talk) 10:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
the Greeks continue to suffer", and "becoming aware that in the near future they will seek independence??????

What is this? A joke or something.--Taulant23 (talk) 03:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The term Northern Epirus is traditionally used in Greece, and its usage may be found offensive by Albanians??Offensive? Please some one explain this to me.--Taulant23 (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted again.This article is getting really stupid day after day.It's a big NPOV,unless you guys are willing to work, we need to keep POV and citations missing.For all most than 3 centuries southern Albania is Albanian.So plz stop your propaganda.--Taulant23 (talk) 20:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
"The term Northern Epirus is traditionally used in Greece, and its usage may be found offensive by Albanians??Offensive? Please some one explain this to me"
Calling it "Northern Epirus" rather than "Southern Albania" might sound irredentist to Albanians and as such, might be offensive. Of course it's mostly used with no such implications by Greeks. Don't get paranoid! Yes, Northern Epirus is Albanian, we all know it. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't get paranoid??? LOL trust me not even a little. I would like to see more friendship between Greeks and the Albanians. Before 90, Greeks loved Albanians but now, because of massive immigration crap, we hate each other. As far as Northern Epirus,I don’t see it as offensive to the Albanians so that’s why I don’t get it but I might me wrong.--Taulant23 (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It's offensive to Albanians since it's automatically tied with claims over modern Albanian territories,much like describing Northwestern "Greece as Chameria" would most likely insult a Greek.Amenifus (talk) 08:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

What Amenifus said. Don't worry, Taulant, we don't hate each other that much (heh), and the general attitudes will probably change as the quality of life in Albania and the open-mindedness in Greece and the rest of the Balkans improve (ditching national myths, another contentious point, will probably be a byproduct as well). The nationalism of the last two centuries in the Balkans, the communist regimes etc. did no one a favor. (Hesperian apples, not so golden?) ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)