Talk:Northern Catalonia

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Current Rosselló and/or Northern Catalonia should be rewritten. I would stress Rosselló as a comarca and the historical county (they could also be separated). Northern Catalonia in the context of Catalan Countries after Treaty of Pyrenees and especially when this denomination was first born. Toniher 18:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that the three current articles (Northern Catalonia, Roussillon and Rosselló (comarca)) are OK. The only problem I see is that their titles are not appropiate. I would rename Roussillon into County of Rosselló and I would rename Rosselló (comarca) into simply Rosselló. I also think that a Rosselló (disambiguation) page is needed. It could be merged with Roussillon (disambiguation) but it has to improve.--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 16:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Rosselló and Northern Catalonia

IMHO, the only possible synonym for Northern Catalonia is French Catalonia. Rosselló only refers to part of the territory under discussion, and may also refer to a former county and vegueria and present-day comarca. Since Rosselló is the largest territory, some refer to the whole territory as Rosselló, but it is simply incorrect. For instance, Rosselló != Cerdanya. This may be explained and corrected in all the different articles, but I think there is no need of introducing more confusion as would represent merging these two articles.

Taking into account the territory:

Pyrénées-Orientales = Northern Catalonia + Fenolheda = Rosselló + (Half) Cerdanya + ... + Fenolheda.

Toniher 10:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I support Toniher opinion, but I would add:
Pyrénées-Orientales = Northern Catalonia + Fenolheda = Roussillon (county) + County of Cerdanya (only a part of it) = Rosselló (comarca) + Conflent + ... + Alta Cerdanya + Fenolheda.
--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 16:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
As nobody has supported the opinion of merge the two articles, I will remove the template.--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 16:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map used on this page seems pretty useless, since it provides no geographic context, scale or reference to present borders. It would be helpful to see where this area is with respect to the more generally-recognized French"Hexagone." 216.227.122.37 06:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this name actually used in English? Isn't this a POV fork of Roussillon?

I've never come across this name in English. Roussillon is generally the term used for the area when it was part of France before the revolution, even if it includes territory not part of the original County of Roussillon. Given that the article Roussillon is on exactly the same subject, isn't this a POV fork? john k 12:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

And note that Roussillon is not incorrect. Cerdagne was certainly part of the French province of Roussillon. Sometimes "Roussillon and Cerdagne" is used, and sometimes just "Roussillon." The fact that the meaning of geographical referents can change and expand does not mean that the newer formulation is wrong. john k 12:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Per the comments above, it seems to be different in my understanding... —Nightstallion (?) 12:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Roussillon has several meanings. One of those meanings is equivalent to "Northern Catalonia". The French province of Roussillon was exactly the same as "Northern Catalonia." Earlier definitions of Roussillon may have been smaller, but this does not seem relevant to me. john k 14:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
If Roussillon has more than one meaning, and Northern Catalonia has only one, then I'd advocate keeping them separate, since Northern Catalonia is apparently the more precise term... No? —Nightstallion (?) 12:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
info : fr:Roussillon is a disambiguation page Alvaro 18:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
"Northern Catalonia" is only use by some anti-France activists. It is not a "neutral" term. The article should talk about that point. Clio64B 10:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Not true. It is the normal term (without political subsenses) in use in Catalonia. There is a story behind its use, which is what this article tries to explain. The term Rousillon is neither precise (it can refer to a county, a vegueria, a province or a geographical area, none of which are exactly contemporaneous, as well as being a part of the name Languedoc-Rousillon, among others), nor particularly well known in English. Physchim62 (talk) 13:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
+1 last october I was near Carcassonne. Reading a local newspapers (fr:Presse écrite régionale en France), I found fr:Catalogne nord more times.
it was not an independantist newspaper. it was a Presse écrite régionale en France (local newspaper in France). the national press is also called the parisian press in France. this parisian press is the only known outside France (and in Paris ;-)
a local newspaper (i don't remember the name) similar to the fr:Le Télégramme de Brest, where you can find, each thursday, one page in en:Breton language. identité culturelle (cultural identity ?), no more. that's my pov Alvaro 15:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
"normal" term? give me a break... WP should be "neutral" and that kind of articles are not. I didn't ask to erase that article, but just explain what is the history of that term... Did you know, for exemple, that is was invented in the XXth century... Clio64B 14:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
hmmm... Pokémon, Television... were also invented in the XXth century ;D
the term exisits, at least in french. the question : the reality under the term exists ? i think so 20/80 -/+ Alvaro 17:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
You will, of course, give a reference for this "invention" in due course, I'm sure :) Physchim62 (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

sorry, I was off topic. what can i say : the term catalogne Nord exists in french. i can't answer to the question Is this name actually used in English? Alvaro 15:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an example of its recent use in French (not that I'm pretending that such as use is common). Physchim62 (talk) 15:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This a question by an "anti-France activist" who ask for independance of that land for the school and langague questions... In France, every schools follow the same rules, and those activists try to to break that rule. They are dreamers... Clio64B 14:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Not every school in France follows the same rules. écoles privées sous contract are allowed to provided bilingual education, and to allow students to wear an islamic veil in class, if they so wish. Please make more constructive comments. Physchim62 (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Edition

As this article had lots of wrong facts, incorrect namings (i.e. Rossellò is a Catalan name and the English Roussillon should be used), a Catalan PoV instead than neutral and a complete lack of accuracy and respect for the Occitan language (called Catalan in this article), I re-edited almost the whole content to a less pro-catalan biased description. It does now also have links to the official names of the region. Maurice27 15:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to ask for your opinion of this new edit. I would like to ask the "pro-catalan crusaders" to explain the imperative use of Rossellò instead of the english correct Roussillon. Maurice27 15:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not know if you are real or a joke from someone. I am going to revert all the vandalizing you have doing in several Catalan related pages. However, I will try to respect all the positive contributions you may have made. The Occitan references are simply hilarious. Occitan is traditionally spoken in Fenolloda, but not in the rest of the department. Even some towns of the Fenolleda are traditionally Catalan-speaking. As an annotation, I attach a link and one text from the very General Council: http://www.cg66.fr/culture/catalanite/
Nothing else to say. Toniher 23:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


No, I'm not a joke, and you should call your acts vandalizing instead of what I am doing myself. Unless you prove with links that (i.e the official name is Rossellò in Catalan instead of Rousillon) and so many other catalan biased facts, you are the one vandalizing.

I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my home country!!!

This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET

P.D. I attach a link and one text in Catalan from the very institut Ramon Llull in Santiago de Chile: http://www.llull.cat/llull/estatic/xile05/cat/02fira/graella.shtm --> And, as far as I know, Catalan is not spoken in Chile. BTW, take your link about Catalinity in South France to the Élysée Palace just to see what happens...

Maurice27 23:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I you are referring to the historic comarca, it should be Rossellò. Otherwise, in pretty much any context I can think of, it should be Roussillon. This is similar to the Danzig/Gdansk issue. - Jmabel | Talk 19:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't forget Pyrénées-Orientales, the name under which most English speakers would know it by... Physchim62 (talk) 14:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27 is goddamn right spanish and french catalans are well known for their imperialism. france is not spain and will never allow what happened with now the autonomous region of catalonia. Paris By Night 21:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pays catalans

I remove [[Pays (France)|''Pays catalans'']] in the introductions. The french pays are much more smaller. And Pays catalans don't appear in Pays (France) nor in the more complete french equivalent : fr:Pays (aménagement du territoire). This term is not used in that sense. The term fr:pays catalans refers to Catalan Countries. Alvaro 11:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I added that link because the sense of Pays in the French term Pays catalans is the one that is linked to. It is not the same as the Catalan Pais in Pais catalans, obviously, but I think it is correct in context. Physchim62 (talk) 15:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • hmmm... just have a look on fr:wikt:pays : seven meanings ;D (english wikt:pays refers just to one meaning : wikt:country).
  • you could say something like pays poitevin instead of Poitou or pays breton / Bretagne. but, afaik, it's something very rarely used.
  • the new bureaucratic meaning (Pays (France)) is more used. i say new, but some modern and bureaucratic Pays can have true historical/social... background. Alvaro 17:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Pays Catalan (SINGULAR) is a normally used French term.
Some sources: http://www.cg66.fr/bienvenue/pays_catalan/index.html
http://www.pyreneesorientalestourisme.com/
It's mostly used for touristic purposes.
Toniher 21:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
+1 touristic purposes. Alvaro 16:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Pays (France) last paragraph: "In this context, the French term pays is not used in the modern sense of "country" but preserves the original meaning of the Latin word from which it was derived, pagus, which designated the territory controlled by a medieval count. The majority of pays are roughly coextensive with the old counties". Weren't these territories precisely old medieval counties? Maurice27 22:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I would be happy to have it in the singular as well, but is a term that is used in French, and should therefore be in the article... Physchim62 (talk) 17:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is used, but... pays catalan... not so much. i've seen on a bottle of (cheap) wine vin du pays catalan. i think pays catalan is not very used, but more than northern Catalonia. i think, no more, i'm not sure ;D Alvaro 16:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC) touristic purposes, cf. above

[edit] Principality of Catalonia

The presently known territory of Northern Catalonia was actually the most northern part of the former Principality of Catalonia, that is, Catalonia. So, It was then under jurisdiction of Generalitat de Catalunya. I consider this should be reflected in the introduction, and not avoided as it seems now. Of course, French regime after the Treaty (both under monarchy and republic) wanted to close all possible ties with the Southern part the more the better (Catalan language forbidden, Catalan Generalitat without jurisdiction there, naming of the territory, etc.). This may be explained in the article as well. By the way, thanks Physchim62 for adapting some content from the Catalan version. It was long I wanted to do it, but I found no time. There is still more content to be added, also from other articles related which have a lot of info of that territory and are highly expanded in Catalan Wikipedia. Toniher 21:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

" the Catalonian territory ceded to France by the Crown of Aragon in 1659 after the Treaty of the Pyrenees" is not enough? Maurice27 21:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cerdania

It's obviously not the English name, but a typo from Cerdanya. Toniher 21:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Ohhhh now you do know more than a english native speaker, right? [[1]]; Maurice27 21:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am the native English speaker who put it in, it is not a typo! On the other hand, it is deliberate PoV (I made the word up, to get some reaction about it)! It is a perfectly logical English construction, but if people prefer "Cerdanya/Cerdagne" or "Cerdagne/Cerdagne" then that is more than fine with me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Physchim62 (talk • contribs) 17:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Certainly we should not use this neologism. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

After Physchim62's great work improving the article and Toniher's addition of the new LanguageS section, I made some changes:

  1. I change the old "catalan countries" template for the new one made by Xtv which refers specially to the Catalan language. Again, Tio de Nadal, Joan Miro, Valencia, Andorra or Salvador Dali have nothing to do in this article.
  2. In the LanguageS (yes, in plural), I have explained which are the schools giving the bilingual education. Those are private schools and even a foundation, but in no way public ones. This is to explain, that education is still given in French, being Catalan an optative language for 99% of the students.
  3. Cerdania/Cerdanya: Again, This is English wikipedia. If there is a word in english, it should be used. Therefore Cerdania is to be used.
  4. Treaty of the Pyrenees: As it is already explained in "Administrative history" section why the redundancy in the lead paragraph?
  5. Catalogne du Nord: This is a term not used (ok...maybe by a negligeable 0,2% of the pop) in France, therefore "is only very rarely used" is the way to be described. In France, the term "Roussillon" is usually preferred and "Pyrénées-Orientales" is the correct one.

--Maurice27 00:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Re point 5: can I go on record as agreeing with Maurice27 :P point 3 is dealt with above; as for point 4, I feel that the Treaty of the Pyrenees should also be in the introductory paragraph. I am trying to get up-to-date statistics on education in the Pyrénées-Orientales, until then I reserve comment (1997 stats indicate that (very roughly) 5% of the age group in the Pyrénées-Orientales sat a baccalaureate exam in Catalan, which would indicate about 20–25% 'knowledge' among 18-year olds in the département: I need better figures to to a better analysis :) Physchim62 (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to say that according to your idea of using Catalan naming for pre-revolutionary years and french for nowadays (which is quite interesting), Fenolheda should be called Fenouillèdes or ?Fenouilledes?. In the same way, the main article should also be called this way Maurice27 19:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I was only trying to get a balance between Catalan and French, not to complicate matters with questions of Occitan as well! As an Occitan speaker, you must be aware of the problems of Occitan orthography: myself, I am currently incapable of giving an opinion on orthography questions in the north-west of the Pyrénées-Orientales... Naming of the article in question should be discussed at Talk:Fenolheda, obviously :) Physchim62 (talk) 13:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map caption

The area in green on the left-hand map is not just Roussillon, but also Vallespir and part of Cerdagne. If no one objects, I shall try to find a more accurate caption. Physchim62 (talk) 13:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Great! --Maurice27 16:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Northen Catalonia, as far as I know, includes Vallespir, Conflent, Rosselló, Alta Cerdanya and Capcir. Maybe it should be changed the name from the image and in spite of writting "the map at left shows Roussillon and Catalonia" should say "the map at left shows Northern Catalonia and Catalonia" (if you look, you can see that in the left image, Fenolleda is not included). The problem perhaps is to associate "Northern Catalonia" with "Rosselló". It's not the same, one is included in the other.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 17:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I forgot Conflent from my list. We can be historically correct in not specifically mentioning Capcir, which was a sotsvegueria of Conflent according to the Enciclopèdia Catalana. Physchim62 (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I think I understood you wrong and I thiught you wanted to put a map just from Rosselló not including the other territories of Northern Catalonia :-P For me it's ok if you find a clearer map. --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 16:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with the map, which I think is important in this article, especially when combined with the second (P-O in France). I think it was me who placed them there, after a dispute many months ago! It was just the caption which I was worried about: we all seem to agree that we shouldn't be making things more confused by saying that Roussillon = Northern Catalonia, whichever period of history you're talking about. Physchim62 (talk) 17:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Globalize

As proven by a number of comments on this talk page, the examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Therefore, it is important to explain to non-related to Catalonia users this point. The existance of "Northern Catalonia" is teached nowhere but in Catalonia. Northern Catalonia is for the rest of humanity nothing else than "Southern France". --Maurice27 22:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if you read the first line of the article, you can see "is sometimes used, particularly in Catalan writings" and also "The equivalent term in French, Catalogne du Nord, is only rarely used". I think this perspective is then properly explained and contextualized.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 15:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
That is absolutly fantastic! I'm glad we both agree that the template:Globalize must be included.--Maurice27 18:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)