Talk:North by Northwest

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Contents 1 Merge 2 "Summary box" 3 Compass direction 4 "North by Northwest" 5 conflicting info 6 Plot 7 Music 8 Speculation 9 Birthyear of Jessie Royce Landis? 10 Closing shot 11 not really metafiction 12 Spy Film 13 Rubbernecking 14 Latest edit regarding knife-throwing 15 Thornhill's middle initial 16 correcting the Hamlet reference 17 Fair use rationale for Image:Northbynorthwest1.jpg 18 In popular culture 19 Second Cameo

[edit] Merge

Many thanks for the merge, Camembert Dieter Simon 00:45 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No problem (there wasn't much to do, anyway :) --Camembert

If we're going to talk about "Thornhill's line" instead of "Grant's line", there should be some mention somewhere of who on earth "Thornhill" is; currently, there is none, so the reader has no idea who Thornhill is. I can't think of a good point to introduce the name, if this is necessary (that's why I originally had "Grant's line") so any ideas of where to introduce it are welcome. Revolver 10:01, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Summary box"

I think this summary box is terrible and, what is more, in no way necessary. It is also displayed in a weird way as far as the layout of the entry is concerned. Is there any consensus to add such boxes to film articles? <KF> 11:29, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

fixed, there's a movie standard summary box that wikipedia has.

[edit] Compass direction

It would be nice to know exactly how the compass direction mentioned in the title doesn't exist. -- .~.

According to Boxing the compass it seems the correct wording would be "North-northwest" as it doesn't use "by" like some other directions. But this is more of a wording change, which one would think is up to interpretation, and is in fact goes in a real direction, unlike say "South by Northwest". Maybe the article should simply note in parenthesis: (although the correct direction is designated "North-northwest") (made changes) -- Poorpete 20:00, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "North by Northwest"

The author seems to have missed the fact that this is also a reference to Shakespeare's Hamlet, where the prince says "I am but mad north-north-west" (2,ii). The context of this befits the idea of a diretionless, surrealistic search for a fictional character.

No, this is a common misconception. In the interview book 'Hitchcock-Truffaut' (1967), Francois Turuffaut asks Hitchcock about this and he says it was just a coincidence. After going through many draft names like 'The Man in Lincoln's Nose', he moved to variations on 'In a Northwesterly Direction' and settled on 'North by Nortwest' simply because it sounded good. The much-cited bit of trivia that there is no such compass direction is also taken from this interview.

Circa the movie's release date, Northwest Airlines had a (Chicago only?) television ad/slogan, "North by Northwest". In some ads, they showed a map of the United States with a big arrow pointing northwest, but would spin it 180 degrees so it pointed southeast, as a clever reminder that Northwest Airlines also flew to Florida (SE from Chicago). Don't recall if the film or commercial came first, but their tag line was "North by Northwest." And in the movie, Northwest Airlines is featured at Chicago's Midway Airport, so South Dakota-bound Roger really does travel North by Northwest (Airlines).

Except that South Dakota isn't due north of Chicago, it's WNW, but perhaps "West-North-West by Northwest" didn't fit on the marquee. :-) StuRat 21:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he and "The Professor" pass the Northwest gate and an Northwest-liveried airliner is seen, but they don't get on the Northwest flight; it is implied that they get on a "company (i.e., CIA)" plane. Rlquall 13:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The film never shows whether they board a CIA plane or Northwest or TWA or United, but it implies Northwest. As Roger is standing in the Midway Airport lobby with the two Chicago police officers, the Professor runs to the Northwest ticket counter to get/give paperwork. I've always assumed he was picking up tickets for a regularly-scheduled commercial aircraft, most likely Northwest Airlines whose logo is behind the counter. If this were a "Company" flight, why would he stop at the civilian counter? --206.54.145.254 16:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] conflicting info

great job to everyone who has worked on this page, however the trivia section about Stewart not getting the part because of Vertigo conflicts with info above abhout how Hitch wanted to work with Stewart again in a different project Smith03 03:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I had always understood that Stewart was never seriously considered for the role because of the nature of the role, not because of the public reception for Vertigo, and that Hitch & Lehman saw it from very early on as a Cary Grant-type role. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 18:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot

I took the liberty of rewriting the, quite lengthy, plot. I do hope this doen't interfere with anything.

Sincerely,

Mbrutus 17:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

It might be good to mention something about Bernard Herrmann's contribution, too. The film would feel rather different with someone else's music. It's also interesting to note that in the entire cropduster sequence there is no music at all until the plane crashes into the oil truck. Wspencer11 15:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

I took out "During an early scene, Grant's character exclaims "What a performance!" to one of Vandamm's gang in Townsend's house after he was kidnapped the previous day. This was a catch phrase of Sid Field, a British music hall comedian whom Grant admired but who died prematurely in 1950. It was possibly inserted by Grant as an undisguised tribute to Field." since it seems to be unsubstantiated. Clarityfiend 05:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. That room is cage on a stage. It's in two scenes and is looks/feels more like a stage play than a film. Look at the entrances, exits, blocking, lighting and dialogue. Vandamm says, "With such expert play-acting, you make this very room a theatre." It's even got a magic show where the stains and booze disappear.

And there's a lot throughout the film about plays, play-acting, adopting a stage persona, etc. I don't have the published script to hand but it would be very easy to verify whether that line exists in the script or was added by Grant/Leach. Wspencer11 16:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

There has been much speculation about whether the viewer was supposed to infer a homosexual relationship between Vandamm and Leonard. I seem to recall Landau stating that this was his understanding in Destination:Hitchcock and that this was part of the reason for his character's saying to Vandamm just before the climactic scene that his (Leonard's) unease was due to his "woman's intuition". Of course, one could always argue that what a scene implies will necessarily be POV; I suppose the above could be restored to the article if one had quotes from noted critics who did infer it. Or is Landau's assertion in the doc sufficient? Rlquall 13:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

All this talk about implication this and implication that isn't quite on target, I'm afraid. To say that a scene "implies" something means the creators of the scene intended the audience to take that "something" away with it; if the creators don't intend that connection to be made, then certainly the audience can "infer" something but the creators didn't "imply" it. Sorry to sound like an English teacher, but...

For example: If I stand up and say, "I'm bald," then that's a statement of fact. If I stand up and don't say "I'm bald," but on the table next to me are three styrofoam heads with toupees on them, then the implication is that I'm bald, but I'm not stating it overtly. If I stand up and don't say "I'm bald," and there is nothing in view that makes you think I'm bald, but you see me do something with my hair that looks a little fishy, you can infer that I'm bald but you have no basis for that view except your own intuition. So as far as WP is concerned, "inference" is POV but "implication" probably isn't. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 18:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birthyear of Jessie Royce Landis?

imdb lists her birthyear as 1896, while her wikipedia article says it's 1904. This brings a trivia item here into doubt; it says she and Grant were both born in 1904. Clarityfiend 06:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have always undestood that she was born at the end of 1904, nearly a year after Cary Grant, but I must say that IMDB is typically very accurate about things. Maybe she lopped eight years off her age...I mean, that would be a shock, wouldn't it? Absolutly NOBODY in Hollywood has ever done anything like that, have they? *ahem* Wspencer11 13:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed that her IMDB mini bio states categorically "Although she claimed to have been born the same year as Grant, she was actually more than seven years older." so I guess that settles that. Clarityfiend 18:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Strongly POV comment that doesn't belong in the article but is fine here: She doesn't really look old enough to be Grant's mother and that may be one of the biggest weaknesses in the film. Angela Lansbury is more convincing as Laurence Harvey's mother in The Manchurian Candidate and she was what, nine years younger than he was, but looked pretty much like she did as Jessica Fletcher in Murder, She Wrote 25 years later.Rlquall 13:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closing shot

I notice that someone has removed the reference to the closing shot (the train speeding into the tunnel) as being Freudian. I believe Hitchcock himself intended the shot to be seen that way, so I don't think it qualifies as being POV. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought so too, but I guess Electicology wants...a source. Clarityfiend 00:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

According to McGilligan's biography, the final line ("Come along, Mrs Thornhill") was suggested by the head of the Production Code (Geoffrey Shurlock) to imply that Thornhill and Eve had got married, and the close up of Eve is actually taken from the cafeteria scene. Hitchcock added the tunnel ending at the last possible moment, in mid-March 1959 -- it wasn't in Lehman's script or any of the drafts, and was never submitted to the censorship officials. In the words of Bill Krohn, it was "the most explicit depiction of the bottom-line facts of the sexual act ever pulled off under the Production Code" and "it gave Hitchcock the last laugh" after he was forced to overdub Eve's "I never make love on an empty stomach" line. Davepattern 06:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] not really metafiction

This article claims that the movie is an example of metafiction but I would dispute that interpretation. Yes, Thornhill and Van Damme discuss Thornhill's insistence that he's not Kaplan in theatrical terms, but the reasons for these discussions are entirely diegetic; any claims that the discussions are metafictional seem to ignore their context within the film. The non-metafictional status of these claims is emphasized by the fact that Thornill's "performance" is always addressed in theatrical terms, never in cinematic terms. At no point does anybody acknowledge in any way that they are in a movie or a situation like a movie, and the dialogue clearly establishes that the "audience" for Thornhill's performance is merely Van Damme himself and his henchmen, not an audience comparable to the viewers of the film; the status of the actual events as a drama unfolding are never addressed, implicitly or otherwise. Having said all of this, I intend to delete the articles's references to metafiction unless I see a reasonable objection on this talk page. Minaker 17:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey -- metafiction is not equivalent to themes of theatre and play-acting. So why did you delete the reference to both instead of just the former??? The latter are completely obvious; read any books or essays on the film. Geez. 68.54.8.242 22:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spy Film

Shouldn't this movie be mentioned on the Spy film page? And shouldn't Spy Fiction be one of the genres mentioned on this page? DodgeK 18:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rubbernecking

To the anonymous editor who keeps putting this back, the reason I took it out was because the article you link to says "Rubbernecking is where drivers slow down...", not stop to gawk. I just want one or the other fixed - I don't particularly care which. Clarityfiend 17:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latest edit regarding knife-throwing

Why is the knife that kills Townsend "evidently intended for Thornhill"? I have never heard that before, and I can't see anything in the film to suggest it. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 15:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the speculation from the body of the article. Should I flee to Mt. Rushmore now? Clarityfiend 15:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thornhill's middle initial

I have put back his middle inital, O, which got removed from the latest edit. On the train with Eve Kendall, he lights a match from his personalized matchbook, which includes the monogram ROT. She asks what the O stands for and he replies, "Nothing." (This supposedly is a poke at David O. Selznick, whose middle initial was apparently also meaningless.) If there's any unhappiness about this, let's talk it over here. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] correcting the Hamlet reference

Will someone with the capability to EDIT the Wikipewdia page about North by Northwest PLEASE change the reference at the bottom of the article to Hamlet's speech from being in Act III, scene ii, to Act II, scene 2. Someone else in this comments section referes to the correct scene, in fact, but most people looking for the place in the actual play will be misled by the article, as is.

T'anks.

Welcome to Reality 16:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)David Myers, Welcome to Reality

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Northbynorthwest1.jpg

Image:Northbynorthwest1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In popular culture

Most of this seems to be non-notable parodies, in-jokes and references, but if you see anything useful... Balsa10 (talk) 22:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

North by Northwest has been referenced and parodied in many works, mostly for the crop duster scene.

• The Simpsons parodied the scene in three episodes (one with a young Marge Simpson, one with Elton John and another with Dr. Hibbert pursuing Bart Simpson).
• The Family Guy episode North by North Quahog almost completely parodies the movie, hence the title. It includes the crop duster scene, as well as the climactic chase scene on Mount Rushmore. The mountainside house at the end of the actual movie was also featured, and is an exact facsimile, with the same decorations and geographic layout.
• A direct reference is made in Arizona Dream by Emir Kusturica, where one of main characters is obsessed with playing the crop duster scene.
• In the James Bond film From Russia With Love, James Bond is chased through a field by a small helicopter which acts as a variation on the crop duster.
• The crop scene was parodied in the Halloween episode of That '70s Show third season, where Michael Kelso is being attacked by a remote-controlled model aeroplane.
• On the Scrubs episode, "My Unicorn", J.D. is chased by a remote controlled aeroplane, which then crashes, resulting in a large explosion behind a hill, which causes J.D. to remark on the unusual size of the explosion.
• The BBC sketch show Alistair McGowan's Big Impression featured a sketch called the the student grants where film stars Hugh Grant Richard E. Grant and Cary Grant all shared a flat. Each time the Cary Grant character would enter the flat he would apologise for being late claiming "I've just been chased across the field by a madman in a biplane".
• Two sections of dialogue between Eva Marie Saint and Cary Grant on board the train were used by UK train operator Virgin Trains in their 2005 commercial "The Return of the Train". The short film shows scenes set on board trains from various movies including North by Northwest, Some Like it Hot and Murder on the Orient Express with the actors transposed to the setting of a modern Virgin Pendolino express train.
• Anthony Horowitz, the author of the Alex Rider Adventures, wrote a book called South By Southeast. It is a parody of the movie, as there are several cases of mistaken identity and a character named McGuffin, as well as a version of the cornfield scene. It is a comedy in the The Diamond Brothers series.
• The striking Saul Bass title sequence, featuring angled words sliding up and down the sides of Madison Avenue office buildings, remains so memorable that in 2006 it is the inspiration for the design of all upcoming-programming interstitials on the Turner Classic Movies cable channel.
• In The 1994 movie Richie Rich a security guard is watching North by Northwest on one of the monitors; also it is parodied by Mr. Rich, Mrs. Rich, and Richie as they are chased on top of their personal version of a Mt. Rushmore setup as in North by Northwest.
• In the movie Lucky Number Slevin, Ben Kingsley explains the plot to Josh Hartnett and told a story about how his immigrant father referred to Eva Marie Saint as a "buick" because he could not say "beauty" causing confusion.
• It is possible that the backstory of the character Brad Carlton of the CBS soap opera The Young and the Restless is a reference to North by Northwest, as the character's real name is George Kaplan — he has pretended to be Brad Carlton for years.
• In India, a Bollywood movie, titled Inum Dus Hazar was made with the same concept. The film was starred Sanjay Dutt and [[Meenakshi Sheshadri.
• In The Brave Little Toaster, the Radio (Jon Lovitz) instructs the appliances to travel north by northwest, then adds, "Watch out for low-flying aircraft."
• In the film Wrongfully Accused, Leslie Nielson is attacked by a model aeroplane in a cornfield.
• On Timon and Pumbaa, Timon is being chased by an aeroplane, he breaks the fourth wall and says "I feel like Cary Grant".
• In Ratchet and Clank: Size Matters, Ratchet and Clank are chased through a cornfield by a crop duster before the boss Luna.
• North by Northwestern, an online magazine at Northwestern University, is named after the film. The site's logo also draws inspiration from the film.
• In I disappear's music video, Kirk was chased by the dust cropper.

I would not add any of these. First of all, the list is completely unsourced, so it can't be used. Second, the best route would be to find a credible source that mentions the prevalence of NbN references in popular culture (it'll probably be the crop duster scene), and place it in a Response section.
Jim Dunning | talk 03:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Second Cameo

Someone recently edited the article saying that Hitch makes a second cameo. Given the lack of confirmation by those who worked on the film, I doubt it really is him... but each time I watch the film, I must admit that I do find myself half wondering if it really might be him! Anyway, there are screenshots here. Davepattern (talk) 08:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)