Talk:North-West Frontier Province

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Contents

[edit] POV!

How is NWFP the most stable province in Pakistan? I don't know enough about the province to improve on this article myself, but someone who knows more about it definitely needs to clean it up and find sources. I'll do what I can in the future. (Working on wikinews article involving NWFP.) Theshibboleth 08:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I made most of the addition to the NWFP and I grew up in that province. I regard it as most stable because the plagues of terrorism,sectarianism and insurrection have not infected the NWFP as it had other Pakistani provinces like Sindh and the Punjab. Also governments change hands peacefully. The religious parties, the MMA which came to power in 2002, have also not been able to make any major changes to the social structure or life in the NWFP beacuse the society will not allow anyone to disrupt anything,whether through the gun or the ballot. I think that qualifies this province as the most stable in Pakistan.

[edit] Major article clean-up, additions, and changes

The NWFP article was very disorganized and I decided to fix it. I kept most of the original information and added considerably more information and divided it up into logical sections and expanded the sections considerably. It was much needed in my opinion. Hopefully everyone is okay with the changes as I am open to suggestions. Tombseye 22:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Discovery ancient Buddhist manuscripts

I added information regarding the latest archeological find of the history of the Buddhist culture and the discovery of the OLDEST Buddhist surviving literature, which is being deciphered now. The info was retrieved from the center for East Asian Studies, Stanford University -INNER ASIA/SILKROAD STUDY GROUP.
CHITRANI-12 Nov./05- 12.43 (GMT +1)

[edit] Changed infobox

One infobox per province is pointless, so I've replaced the Template:NWFP-infobox with a new generic one for all provinces. Green Giant 00:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Move to North-West Frontier Province

It seems a bit strange that this article is labelled "North-West Frontier Province, Pakistan". As far as I know, there is no other "North-West Frontier Province" and so we don't need to add the suffix Pakistan. Anyone oppose a move? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Doh, you beat me to it. I was just thinking that it is odd to have such a lengthy title when I can't honestly think of another "North-West Frontier Province" that might need disambiguating. It's a sensible move, so let's do it. Green Giant 01:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I see no reason not to move; the move does implicitly promise an increase of the section on the British, since the article is no longer distinguished from the hypothetical North-West Frontier Province, British India. Septentrionalis 22:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, --Philip Baird Shearer 11:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, Sounds like a good move to me as it's true that there is only one North-West Frontier Province. Tombseye 19:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Done. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 10:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, shouldn't we be doing the same for the FATA? —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 10:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, that title for FATA is far too long and again there is no other FATA to disambiguate from.

[edit] Persian as a major language

Farsi is not a major language of NAWFP. It is only spoken as a first langauge by Afghan Tajik refugess and a few Badakhshani Tajiks who have been settled in Chitral for a few centuries.

No doubt Farsi has played a huge role in the region and is spoken and understood by many as a second language, but it no longer enjoys the same position that it used to in the past.

Actually, it is a major language as there are also Wakhi speakers and native Tajiks who appear to number in the hundreds of thousands in addition to the refugees. Tombseye 22:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to put in my two pence, there used to be some Qizilbash families in Peshawar City, whose native tongue was Persian. Also, the article fails to mention the Urmar/Barki language of Kanigurum in South Waziristan and Parachi around Kohat.

Actually there arent any "Farsi" speakers in NWFP, but there are many Persian speakers. Persian is widely used in parts of the NWFP, but more so in the Afghan/Central Asian dialects of Dari and Tajik rather than the Farsi dialect of Iran. We should include Persian as a prominent language and put Dari and Tajik in parentheses rather than "Farsi". Afghan Historian 18:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to have Tanawali tribe of Swat, Mardan and Hazara as a major Pashtun tribe as it is now widely accepted as such. Without going into the argument yet again it is important to see the various referencese.g. historical works by Tanawalis and non-Tanawalis alike. Great Pashtun authorities are agreed on this. 18:07, 2nd June 2007

[edit] Language

Why is Pashto showing as the first language on the list when Urdu is the official language? Surely by convention the official language should be first? Urdu is the official language *and* lingua franca, virtually all Pashto speakers would understand it, it is understood throughout the province, however the same cannot be said of Pashto. See www.nwfp.gov.pk - it is in Urdu not Pashto. I will amend language again, showing Urdu as official - this is factual :-) All the other languages are regional anyway - they are not some alien tongue.

194.176.201.29 01:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Because Pashto is the language of the majority. In fact, much of the population's Urdu capabilities are limited AND the other provinces all show their local languages first and there is NO convention as to why the most prevalent language, recognized as the main regional language cannot be listed first. The official language is relevant to country article of Pakistan, but this makes it seem as if the main language of the province is Urdu when it is actually Pashto. Urdu IS listed as 'national' as English is the official language and Pashto is the regional tongue. Their order in being listed does not come with any pre-set notions here. In addition, where is English on the list if we're going to go this route? I'm reverting unless there is something more credible than the NWFP website which is written so that everyone in the country can understand and not because it is the most prevalent language in the NWFP (which it is not). Tombseye 16:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Well thanks for what appears to be a slighly bad tempered response, perhaps you should have a look at Wikipedia:Civility. Urdu is the official language not just of the federal government but throughout Pakistan - you have written "I'm reverting unless there is something more credible than the NWFP website" - what is more credible than the offical website? Not only that but Urdu is compulsory in schools, and is also taught in madrassas.
It is also the most heterogeneous province, unlike Punjab where the Punjabi language is in an overwhelming majority the NWFP is a little different. You say there is "NO convention" so why are you so admament to change it? You say "Pashto is the regional tongue" but it is not the only regional tongue, Hindko, Khowar and Persian are also regional tongues.
In fact even many Afghan refugees who settle in the NWFP have learnt the Urdu language
http://www.irinnews.org/InDepthMain.aspx?InDepthId=16&ReportId=62527&Country=Yes
What is not logical about the following dispay? - Is this not neutral point of view?
  • Urdu (official)
  • Pashto
  • Hindko
  • Khowar
  • Persian
You have insisted on changing it to
  • Pashto (regional)
  • Urdu (national)
  • Hindko
  • Khowar
  • Persian
Again let me reiterate Hindko, Khowar and Persian are regional languages. There are many Urdu newspapers published through the NWFP, even in heavily Pushtun areas - not to disparage Pashto, which is an historic language with an old literary tradition.
To summarise, the Urdu language is spoken throughout the province, many Pashtuns speak it very well as a second language, granted not every single may speak it but the majority can quite well.
In the areas where Pashtuns are not dominant, non-Pashtuns (overall) have a very limited understanding of Pashto - even Pashtuns who have moved eastwards accross the province may not be that good. Urdu has been the official language here since the days of British India, whatever the motives of the British - Urdu nowadays is understood and spoken and written by millions across the province.
194.176.201.29 23:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
My apologies if my written response appears uncivil, although it was more blunt than uncivil or meant to be. I've been to the NWFP and although there is a hetergenous population it is still overwhelmingly Pashtun. I think the provinces should reflect the diversity of the country whereas the country article explains the official and national languages. That's the actual logic of hetergenous countries. Conversely, why are you insisting upon Urdu's place in the NWFP? What about Balochistan which is even more diverse? The 2nd largest group, the Hindkowans, more often than not speak and understand Pashto (and even identify themselves as part of the Pashtun community) so when we delve into much much smaller groups like the Khowar and people in the north, we're talking about very small percentages here. Urdu is still there as it is in all the provinces, but this article being about the NWFP, the emphasis should be upon its regional character and thus why I believe Pashto should be listed where it is. In fact, I would list all of the regional languages first as it is a given that Urdu is the national language anyway. As for in order to what is spoken the most frequently, you are surely not saying that Urdu is more common than Pashto because that was certainly not my experience. Urdu is the lingua franca and is the language of education yes, but that is also true in the Punjab where it even has a certain amount of status. Either way, I believe this article should be about a regional focus as why even write articles about provinces if the point is to convey a national perspective? Tombseye 05:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact, Urdu is mot truly a national language rather something imported from India by the Indian immigrants when they migrated from Hindustan and imported on the natives and the true sons of the soil. Mohammad Ali Jannah the leader of the Indian Muhajirs also tried to impose it on Bengalis in 1950s but they violently revolted against it. It is the same language as Hindi but written in Quranic script.

Moreover, this article is highly biased and seems to be written with the intention to downplay the importance of Pashtuns in NWFP.FatehM 01:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how anyone could claim this article is biased against Pashtuns, it says more about them, than any other ethnic group - (perhaps you dislike the inclusions of Greeks and Shahi in the ancient history section). However Pathans are not the only group - and in fact it is the other groups who are underrepresented. A couple of corrections Urdu is not written in the "Quranic script", it is written in a Pero-Arabic script and contains characters that would be unintelligible to Arabs (unless they had studied the script) - though Urdu and Hindi may be registers of the same language it also bears a close similarity to Hindko, Punjabi and other languages of Pakistan. It is not a language of immigrant. It is true though that the language was imposed on the Bengalis - this was only part of the reason they revolted though.

194.176.201.27 (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The language was brought by Hindustani Muhajirs, now settled in Karachi, and imposed on the native population. That is a fact you should not deny.

How was it "imposed" exactly?, it's been used far longer than you care to aknowledge, it was in use in the area even during Mughal rule, and also as a literary language, Hindi which is similar is spoken across just across the border .....

[edit] Fact About Linguistic Groups of NWFP

Pashtuns constitute 74% of the population of that province. This figure doesn't include Pashtuns from FATA who are very intimately tied to NWFP. Currently, the Pashto-speaking population of NWFP might have risen to more than 80% because of a higher population growth rate and settling down of tribal Pashtuns in the province in large numbers. The rest of the communities include Hindowans etc. The article is a deliberate attempt to make the dominent Pashtun character of the province controversial. In Punjab, there are Siraiki speakers nevertheless they are not mentioned in the article on Punjab.69.157.109.144 (talk) 04:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The factual accuracy of the article and its deliberate attempt to downplay the demographic significance of Pashtuns in the province can be gauged from its ridiculous claim that Hindko speakers are on-third(1/3rd) of the population of NWFP. The reality is, they (Hindko speakers) are less than 1/5th of the province's population ( only 18% according to 1998 Population Census). Pashtuns are 3/4th of the population(74% according to 1998 Population Census). See http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_mother_tongue.pdf for a proof of this this. This doesn't take into account the fact that very large number of Pashtuns from FATA have settled in NWFP and they are doing so in even greater numbers.FatehM (talk) 05:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Also see: http://focusonfrontier.com/description/view.asp?id=28 FatehM (talk) 06:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The PDF you indicated doesn't actually say Hindko but it can be deduced that with barely 20% of the NWFP population speaking "other languages", that Hindko cannot be greater than 20%. The Ethnologue entry suggests a population of about 3 million in 1993, mainly in the Hazara division. Green Giant (talk) 14:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ethnologue is a highly ubreliable source as far as demographies are concerned. And 1998 census listed Hindo to be spoken by 18% of the inhabitants, which roughly makes it 1/5th of the population.FatehM (talk) 00:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pakhtunkhwa is now the official name

The Government of Pakistan has finally decided to officially give the name Pakhtunkhwa to NWFP. See Pakistan news or goverment sites for more details.--119.30.72.110 (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Little Awghanzai, the name of Pakhtunwa will get changed into Afghania or Islampour. Why are you fabricating lies? Little Pashtun dog!--217.23.233.7 (talk) 18:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Kharkuss tajik, that will not happen. The name "Pakhtunkhwa" will soon be revealed.--119.30.76.175 (talk) 01:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It's NOT YET the new name. It's part of a constitutional reform package which has yet to be passed by parliament, so wait until it comes into effect. —Nightstallion 11:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Your absolutley right and nobody in Pakistan is against the name change.--119.30.76.138 (talk) 00:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This change will not happen because NWFP is not just Pakhtun. There are many ethnic groups in NWFP and calling it Pakhtunkhwa is racist and unjust to the many non-Pashtuns of NWFP, for example the Kalash and Tajiks. Also, this region has never been known as Pakhtunkhwa. It is a newly invented name for the region by Pakhtun nationalists.

I have again reverted the article, a) because it was in bad faith, my edits were not vandalism b) it reported a proposed name change as if it will happen "probably before the end of 2008". c) As can be seen from above, the name change would be a little controversial Pahari Sahib 19:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
You are not allowed to remove well sourced content from the article because you may not like it. You keep adding that there are 3 million Afghan refugees in NWFP. That is false because the Government of Pakistan said in February 2007 that in the entire Pakistan there are about 2 million Afghanistan's citizens. See this ---> NADRA Has Registered 2.15 Million Afghan Refugees Not all of those live in NWFP. And last year over 300,000 of the 2 million went back to Afghanistan, so the number now is even less than 2 million. The Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Pakistan, after Punjabis, and they have enough power within the government of Pakistan to give their native region the name "Pakhtunkhwa". There are no native Tajiks in NWFP, only some Afghan refugee Tajiks live there and whom will be forced out back to northern Afghanistan before December 2009, the overal majority of NWFP are Pakhtuns. The person who wrote the above message and forgot to sign is the banned User:Beh-nam, he is a Shiite Tajik from Afghanistan now living in Canada. He doesn't know anything about Pakistan's politics and is talking nonsense. The name change is among the first thing that has to be done, which is part of the constitutional package.--119.30.69.250 (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually anyone can wikipedia, so what message are your referring to, and why should this exclude Shiites and/or Tajiks? I have again reverted. Pahari Sahib 21:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Having checked out your edits a little, it appears that it is not just me who has notice that your edits are misleading Pahari Sahib 21:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
And you have several records for being blocked because you were engaged in edit-warring. Others may say I am a killer but that doesn't make it true. So stop that nonsese please, this is a place to discuss topics relating to the article. It is not a place to write about other editors.--119.30.77.149 (talk) 01:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The above comments are simply not true, several records? - what on earth are you talking about. I agree incidentally that this is not the place to write about other editors - but we can point out if an editor is being disruptive or mislead. Pahari Sahib 09:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Here it shows you've been blocked for edit-wars. Stop being ignorant by reverting my edits. There are no 3 million Afghan refugees in NWFP and I've explained that to you already. The intro should start with where NWFP is located and then explain about the ethnic stuff. Persian is not spoken by Pakistani citizens but by some Afghan refugees and those refugees are not included in Pakistan's population. You keep removing well sourced contents and that is vandalism, I'll keep reverting your vandalism until you stop.--119.30.71.31 (talk) 19:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Dear anon, I must confess I find what you have written rather amusing - please don't misconstrue facts, for you benefit I will spell out what the second "block" says "blocked "Pahari Sahib (Talk | contribs)" (autoblock disabled) with an expiry time of 1 second ‎ (User was reverting sockpuppet of banned User:Hkelkar, previous block was not justified)" It was just a one second block purely to note I was blocked in error. As it happens the admin who blocked me originally did apologise, it was two other users were warring. My edits were more along the lines of discussing and reverting. Anyway all this happened almost five months ago, I have been editing wikipedia since 12 Jan 2007 and made over 13,000 edits and your above comments have no basis in this discussion. Anyway, back to talking about this article, please don't accuse me of being ignorant, your latest edit removed a Pakistan government source with respect to the languages spoken - as well as details from the UNHCR. You should also assume good faith - you might find people more receptive to your arguments if you do so. Pahari Sahib 07:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Shortly I will go to NWFP and take some nice pictures to put in this article. There are many many nice beautiful places in NWFP.--119.30.77.149 (talk) 01:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)