Talk:Norte Chico civilization/archive1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Note on article title 2 R: Note on article title 3 Observation 4 R: 5 More notes 6 Dirigido al anonimo 6.1 Sure

[edit] Note on article title

An anon has repeatedly disputed the article title here; I'm very much hoping that he or she figures out how the talk pages work and ceases posting observations directly in articles. First:

• We need to describe the academic dispute, but attacks on the credibility of researchers violate WP:BLP and cannot be tolerated.

Re the name:

• WP:A: "English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia." This doesn't mean we can't use the Spanish sources (I don't read Spanish, but no doubt we can find someone to help); it does mean that what the English sources call the civilization is what must be given primacy. The most recent English sources call it Norte Chico; the Spanish wiki has a Civilización Caral, which is probably appropriate there because that's what their sources call it.
• Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Thus, as important as the name provided by the primary researchers, is that used by reliable, summative, secondary sources. The most complete survey of the literature in English (AFAIK) is from Mann in 1491 and Science. He uses Norte Chico, and this page sticks with him.
• "Norte Chico civilization" may create confusion given the Chilean region of the same name, but "Caral(-Supe) civilization" is far more problematic: it suggests to the reader that the Caral site is the oldest, largest, and/or that it was politically dominant. The first appears to be wrong, the second is equivocal, and there is no evidence for the third. And it wasn't the first studied site, if that's the argument—Aspero was. Marskell 18:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R: Note on article title

"* We need to describe the academic dispute, but attacks on the credibility of researchers violate WP:BLP and cannot be tolerated."

Do you know who is Betty Meggers? She said: "The fact that Haas and Creamer are accessible to the media and speak English has facilitated their usurpation of credit for identifying early urbanism on the coast of Peru, with its revolutionary implications for theories of the evolution of complex society. They deserve the opportunity to defend themselves, but the damage has been done." http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/

Re: Re the name:

• "English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia."

Well, you can see: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal_ing.htm

"* Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Thus, as important as the name provided by the primary researchers, is that used by reliable, summative, secondary sources. The most complete survey of the literature in English (AFAIK) is from Mann in 1491 and Science. He uses Norte Chico, and this page sticks with him.

Does Charles Mann use Norte Chico? "Field Museum hosts Charles Mann, bestselling author of 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (...) The other Field Museum archaeologist who will share the stage with Mann is Jonathan Haas, PhD, MacArthur Curator, Anthropology of the Americas. Dr. Haas’ current work is in the Norte Chico Region of Peru." http://www.fieldmuseum.org/museum_info/press/press_mann.htm

• "Norte Chico civilization" may create confusion given the Chilean region of the same name, but "Caral(-Supe) civilization" is far more problematic: it suggests to the reader that the Caral site is the oldest, largest, and/or that it was politically dominant."

No, in the archaeological practice, the site-tipe gives the name for the society/culture/civilization. Examples: Chavin (Chavin de Huantar), Cupisnique (Cupisnique), Paracas (Paracas), Huari (Huari), et ceterae. The name of the civilization is Caral, and the name of the archaeological site is "Sacred City of Caral".

Shady is studying the Caral civilization in the field since 1994. Haas and Creamer, since 2002.

[edit] Observation

It is not correct to use the term “Norte Chico” for the first Andean civilization. The name of the first Andean civilization is “Caral”. The name Caral was taken from the Quechua toponym of a village located in the Supe Valley, in the department of Lima, Peru.

Ruth Shady began research in the Supe Valley in 1994. In 1996 she started excavating in the archaeological site of Caral, and this excavation work continues to the present. In 1997 she announced for the first time the age of the site and, therefore, of Caral, the first Andean civilization, in the book “La ciudad sagrada de Caral-Supe en los albores de la civilización en el Perú” (full text available at http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Libros/Arqueologia/ciudad_sagrada/caratula.htm) and in the article “Caral, la cité ensevelie” which was published in number 340 of the French magazine Archèologia (http://www.archeologia-magazine.com/). In both publications Shady presented an integrated approach to the formation of civilization, in which she includes the civilization of Caral within the so-called north-central area of Peru (made up of the coastal valleys of Santa, Nepeña, Sechín, Culebras, Huarmey, Fortaleza, Pativilca, Supe, Huaura, Chancay, and Chillón; the Andean valleys of Callejon de Huaylas and Callejon de Conchucos together with the altiplano or high plateau region of Junín; and the headwaters of the Marañón and Huallaga rivers). Since then, in just recognition of Shady’s work, in Peru the first Andean civilization has been known by the name of Caral. It was not until July 2000 that the North American archaeologists Jonathan Haas and Winifred Creamer contributed funds from their institutions to date 12 samples taken by Shady in the Sacred City of Caral. The results of the radiocarbon dating paid for by Haas and Creamer, together with other samples tested independently merely corroborated the affirmations made by Shady in 1997. Although Haas and Creamer never researched in Caral, because of their economic contribution they were included by Shady as co-authors of the article “Dating Caral, a pre-Ceramic site in the Supe valley on the central coast of Peru” about the Sacred City of Caral and the datings obtained, published in 2001 in Science magazine. The publication of this article received coverage in the world press, which Haas and Creamer took advantage of to present themselves, incorrectly, as the discoverers and researchers of Caral (See, for example, Creamer’s web site in this reference: http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/wcjo/researcher.html).

Since their unethical presentation in 2001, Haas and Creamer have not linked themselves again with Shady, the main researcher of the origin of civilization in Peru. But bearing in mind that Shady had mentioned to them, in July 2000, the need to do research in the valleys adjacent to the Supe Valley (Fortaleza, Pativilca, and Huaura) in order to get a better understanding of the expressions of the Caral civilization in those places, for this purpose Haas and Creamer created an archaeological research project geographically superimposed on that which Shady is carrying out in the Supe Valley, calling it “Norte Chico”, which includes the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, Supe, and Huaura (although they have never actually intervened in the Supe Valley, where the Caral civilization built its most extensive, voluminous, and important settlements). Since then, they have referred to the Caral civilization by the new name of Norte Chico so that it appears that they are researching for the first time a “new, previously unknown civilization,” (See, for example, the application for funds submitted by Haas and Creamer to the National Science Foundation, http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0211014 and http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0211020 and the summary of Haas’s work in http://www.fieldmuseum.org/research_collections/anthropology/research_sa.htm)

Since their interference in Peru, Haas and Creamer have started a campaign for the earliest Andean civilization to be known internationally as “Norte Chico”. This new name does not in any way reflect the values of the Peruvian culture as Caral does (a Quechua name from the locality). The term also confuses people about the area concerned, because “Norte Chico” is the name for the Chilean regions of Atacama and Coquimbo (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_%28Chile%29); and in Peru it is the informal-political name for a group of provinces in the department of Lima, namely Barranca, Huaura, and Huaral (where the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, Supe, Huaura, and Chancay are located) (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_%28Per%C3%BA%29); this is all the more erroneous bearing in mind that the earliest Andean civilization was formed in the north-central area of Peru, as defined above, which includes not only the coastal region but also the Andean highland and Andean jungle regions.

The term “Norte Chico” merely serves Haas and Creamer’s interest in hiding the fact that research has been performed by Peruvians, since 1994, on the formation of civilization in this area. Haas and Creamer are really studying the manifestations of the Caral civilization in the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, and Huaura, so it is not necessary for them to use a new nomenclature; they should respect the term that has already been established.

Readers are invited to take these observations into consideration to prevent the confusions promoted by Haas and Creamer. The information that is being spread under the name of “Civilization of the Norte Chico” refers, in fact, to the Caral Civilization.

[edit] R:

On site-type, why not "Aspero civilization"? It was documented in 1973. You write "Haas and Creamer are really studying the manifestations of the Caral civilization in the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, and Huaura..." Do you not see enormous potential for confusion here? Particularly the temporal aspect of "manifestations of"? A general reader is going to come across that and assume that the civilization was first manifest on the Supe, and that Caral was the dominant center. Haas' dates indicate that the Fortaleza and Pativilca may have been settled first. And if, as he suggests, there are 100 hectare sites on the northern rivers we have no idea what, if any, was the dominant center. You don't like Haas et al. evidently, but this page can't ignore their research. As for "Sacred city of..." it sounds mighty odd to my secular ear. On Wiki we describe the Qu'ran, not the "Noble Qu'ran", for instance.

But this is all just my musings. What matters in terms of Wikipedia policy is that in 2004 Nature saw fit to publish research with the term Norte Chico used. At the same time, CNN and BBC were willing to deploy the name. You are suggesting that it was the ambitious machinations of certain researchers that landed the term on CNN and BBC but, even if this Wikipedia editor sympathizes, it's now fait accompli: these are standard English sources and it is not Wikipedia's place to break from them. You believe Mann is a suspect source because he shared a stage with Haas—again, policy here tells me he's just the sort of reliable, secondary source this page needs.

"The fact that Haas and Creamer are accessible to the media and speak English has facilitated their usurpation of credit for identifying early urbanism..." We can say "Jones has accused Smith of usurpation of credit" with a good source, but NOT "Smith usurped credit", unless we have very robust, multiple sourcing. (You are sourcing that statement to a blog, which is insufficient.) Potentially slanderous statements are an absolute no-go here. If Shady's open letter or statements from Meggers have been published on a .edu site or something similar, we can consider using it in the last section of the article.

As a last point, I have not found a Brittanica entry specific to the civilization. When they finally draft a page whatever term they use may become canonical; if you're affiliated with a University, as I'm guessing, send them a letter. Disputes of this sort must be enormously frustrating to the non-English speaker but, in my amateur opinion, any professional can play the game. Marskell 10:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

To partly address your concerns I have:

• Bumped Caral-Supe civilization to a bolded first line alternative.
• Added "The name is disputed. English language sources use Norte Chico (Spanish: "Little North") per Haas et al. Caral or Caral-Supe are more likely to be found in Spanish language sources per Shady. This article follows usage in recent English language sources and employs Norte Chico, but the title is not definitive. Peruvian Norte Chico should not be confused with the Chilean region of the same name." in a footnote; and
• Added "Peruvian archeologists, led by Ruth Shady Solís, provided the first documentation of the civilization in the late 1990s, with work at Caral" sourced to the book you have provided above. Marskell 12:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source (not the blog) that states Haas and Creamer had not actually worked at the sites when the 2001 paper was published? Marskell 12:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

A last idea: start an account, assign an e-mail address to it (any one you like), then click on the bluelinked "Marskell." In the list to the left you'll see "e-mail this user"; click it and you can send me an e-mail. It might be better to communicate that way, as I'm concerned this conversation contravenes Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Marskell 13:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More notes

Your article is getting better Please note: "In the Norte Chico we see almost no visual arts. No sculpture, no carving or bas-relief, almost no painting or drawing—the interiors are completely bare. What we do see are these huge mounds—and textiles." You can see: http://www.arqueologia.com.ar/peru/caral_f.htm

Note, the page has: "While visual arts appear absent, instrumental music may have been present: thirty-two flutes, crafted from pelican bone, have been discovered." What I'm curious about is the art directly engraved on the flutes. Is it thoroughly dated to the era in question? I've asked a Spanish speaker to read your source.

Also, anon, a fellow user has translated:

El número de centros urbanos (17), identificado en el valle de Supe, y su magnitud, requirieron de una gran cantidad de mano de obra y de los excedentes, para su edificación, mantenimiento, remodelación y enterramiento. Si consideramos exclusivamente la capacidad productiva de este pequeño valle, esa inversión no habría podido ser realizada sin la participación de las comunidades de los valles vecinos.

As:

The number of urban centers (17) identified in the Supe Valley, and their magnitude, requires a great quantity of surplus labor for their construction, maintenance, remodeling and burial. If we consider exclusively the productive capacity of this small valley, this investment could not have been realized without the participation of the communities of neighboring valleys.

I would like to use this to buttress the suggestion in the lead that Shady "provided the first extensive documentation of the civilization." Do you agree with this translation? Marskell 20:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Flutes: more are from condor bones (Vultur gryphus) than pelican bones (Pelecanus sp.) The translation is ok - You can fly the Supe valley with Google Earth and see the scarcity of land in its central zone, where the Sacred City of Caral was built.

Anon, I can only add "Condor bones" if you point me to a reliable source, with publication info etc. This http://www.arqueologia.com.ar/peru/caral_f.htm seems just great for info on the flutes, but the website does not provide proper attribution (according to a Spanish language reader here). Similarly, the blog (http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/) could be a great source of info, but: who's the publisher? who's vouching for the information? The "about" section says absolutely nothing.

And do you mind my asking who I am talking to? Is it Ruth Shady? A student who mimics her words? Or "just some guy", like me? Don't answer here: I'm timmarskell AT yahoo DOT ca. Wikipedia being what it is, this page is already at the top of Google for a search of "Norte Chico" (see here). I very much want to present the info fairly. Marskell 22:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Don't answer here": I'm a peruvian journalist. In 2001 I wrote a note about the discover published in Science... giving the credit to Haas and Creamer. After, I known the Shady's work. Since then, I have interviewed to several archaeologists on the subject, includes Shady and Norte Chico Archaeological Project team members. Only later I have taken a open position in favor of Shady. I found your article reviewing the information on Caral civilization in the web.. I have in my notes that the flutes was exposed in Lima with the information that are of condor and pelican bones. About the blog, I knew it in a conversation with archaeologists, but I did not know who opened it.

Thanks, anon. Unfortunately, I can't use the blog, though I'd really like to. You can see what I've done in the "Research controversies" section. I cannot say "A is right and B is wrong", but the quotes selected speak for themselves. Marskell 13:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dirigido al anonimo

Hola, anon; I've helped a wee bit on this article, and have been reading your entries. Since you aren't a registered user, I'm not sure how I can contact you to ask if you might be able to come up with any Peruvian news sources to verify this woman's connections to Sendero Luminoso ?[1] If you have time, or are aware of any sources, favor de contactarme al User talk:SandyGeorgia, or por mi e-mail. Gracias! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sure

Thanks, if you google her name, you can find more, but I'm looking for Peruvian press verification, if there is any. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)