Talk:Norman Finkelstein

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Good article Norman Finkelstein has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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Contents




[edit] The Associated Press... Hezbollah

I'd like to note that the paragraph beginning The Associated Press reports that Finkelstein recently said that the Islamic terrorist group Hezbollah represents "hope", which is found in the Praise and criticism of Finkelstein's scholarship section, isn't an example of praise or criticism and has nothing (visibly) to do with his scholarship. If this bit of trivia is worth keeping at all, it should surely go elsewhere in the article. Pinkville (talk) 16:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The Associated Press reports that Finkelstein recently said that the Islamist group Hezbollah represents "hope." "After the horror and after the shame and after the anger there still remain a hope, and I know that I can get in a lot of trouble for what I am about to say, but I think that the Hezbollah represents the hope. They are fighting to defend their homeland," Finkelstein told reporters.<ref> [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/942454.htm U.S. academic Finkelstein meets top Hezbollah official in Lebanon ]</ref>
I've moved the passage here... On further reflection I realised that there's really little of value in the passage at all (at least as it stands). The introductory sentence merely repeats what is in the quote, no background is provided for the quote itself or the position Finkelstein is represented as holding, and the link is a dead link. If this is to be returned to the article, it needs much more work. Pinkville (talk) 16:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I think a sentence or two would be appropriate, the quote was prominently featured in a Daily Star piece on his visit and picked up by Ha'aretz. It is not "criticism" of course. Um, actually it seems to be featured already, now that I look, under a section "Political activity" which is devoted solely to the one quote. That's awfully strange given that Finkelstein has been politically active since 1982! <eleland/talkedits> 16:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Someone should add more, but I don't believe it is that simple. Almost all his academic activity was highly politicized, so in this context, political activity would probably mean meeting with or promoting political interests directly, and Finkelstein probably didn't do a lot of that. Depends on how you look at it. --Akvak (talk) 16:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I added it back in since it appeared sourced and relevant but will deferr to others about where or of it should remain. I will not add it back again, thanks, --Tom 16:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I still think that the passage (as it stands) amounts to nothing more than trivia and doesn't really deserve to be included - though I can imagine it as part of a lengthier section on a related issue (e.g. Finkelstein's lecture tours? etc.). Such a quote, with virtually no context or background, doesn't say anything noteworthy. What else has he said about Hezbollah? about other Islamist groups in the area? and what were the circumstances that led to this quote?, etc. These are the sorts of questions that beg to be addressed in any text that would include this quote. Glad the link was fixed - though the original Haaretz article isn't much to write home about... Pinkville (talk) 19:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it should stay out - Pinkville is correct that it doesn't add anything of particular note to the article. It might be something that is considered controversial, if it gets a reaction that indicates it is, but in the mean time it is one of however many thousands of press quotes he is given that we don't include. I would like, personally, to maintain a high standard of inclusion for content in this article to hold on to the GA status for as long as possible (losing it is inevitable, IMHO). Avruchtalk 22:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Caution to editors involved in RfAr for Israel/Palestine

Please do not bring the broader conflict here. This article is tangentially related, and if it becomes a new focus of activity from the group of folks involved in the questionable conduct related in the RfAr it will be pointed out in evidence and could subject you to additional (more severe) restrictions based on spreading the fire. Avruchtalk 22:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Finkelstein in interview with Lebanese Future TV: "Israel has to suffer a defeat".

This article seems to be so caught up with Finkelstein's hysteria and desire to portray him as a serious scholar of great merit, that it fails to catch the basic flaws in his polemics. This interview of Finkelstein is a case in point: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1676.htm He not only intimidated and tried to shut up his Lebanese interviewer (who attempted quite plainly to tell him that as a visitor to Lebanon, he was essentially interfering in the internal affairs of the Lebanese by so blatantly issuing polemics expressing solidarity with Hizbullah), he also presented opinions as though they were facts and made numerous factual errors. He presents a slogan "Never forgive and never forget" as though this were some kind of slogan of the Jewish people, yet this is a perversion of the truth, as the usually quoted line is , "We can forgive, but never forget", as shown in this article on the website of the Jewish Defense League, not exactly known for its docility: http://www.jdl.org/misc/forgive.shtml He also presents "the Communist resistance" as a distinct object of particular veneration during the struggle against Nazism in World War II, which is a clear attempt to stack the deck. The Red Army was heroic in its defense of the Soviet Union and defeat of Nazi Germany after Operation Barbarossa, but what about before?, and what about its post-war occupation of Eastern European "satellite nations"? Winston Churchill, an avowed anti-Communist, spearheaded a virtually lone struggle against Nazi Germany at a time when the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were adhering to their infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. When the Wehrmacht marched into western Poland and ignited the War, the Red Army merely adhered to their side of the bargain by marching into Eastern Poland and claiming it for the Soviet Union. Communist parties outside the Soviet Union towed Stalin's line by adhering to "neutrality" and denouncing the declaration of war by Britain and France as "imperialist". This policy resulted in the Communist party being banned in France in 1939. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FRcommunist.htm On a somewhat tangential note, it might interest Finkelstein, who rails vituperatively against Zionism, to note that the Jewish fighting organizations that led the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, the ZOB and the ZZW, were Zionist in orientation, and that initially the non-Zionist socialist Bundists and Jewish Communists objected to the setting up of armed Jewish resistance, for fearing of creating a rift with the rest of the Polish population, until ultimately they were absorbed into the left-wing Zionist ZOB. Getting back to my original point, Finkelstein also displays a rather unjustifiable position, rather alarming for someone who is considered a great scholar, when he says "I do want to express my solidarity with Hizbullah", immediately followed by "I don't care about Hizbullah as a political organization. I don't know much about their politics." But if those "politics" are based on the elimination of the state of Israel, or on the directives of the Iranian Ayatollahs and Revolutionary Guards, or on importing the Iranian Islamic Revolution and imposing its dogmas on the Lebanese majority that are not privy to it, or on initiating a cross-border military attack against Israel without the approval or consent of the Lebanese government, then on what account does Finkelstein consider Hizbullah a "resistance organization", as he puts it? The Lebanese interviewer pointed out, in response, that Hizbullah could be considered as such before 2000, but then, "In 2000, Israel withdrew from South Lebanon. There was a rift within Lebanon betwee the internal political players on the issue of the future of the weapons and the issue of the resistance...You are now taking sides. After all, you say you are only visiting Lebanon, but you don't see the ramifications of the July war for the people." to which Finkelstein responds curiously that she is "closing her eyes", and Israel began "planning for a new war right after they were forced to leave in 2000. They found their excuse, their pretext, in July 2006. But there was no question among rational people that Israel was never going to let the Hizbullah victory go by.", to which the interviewer responds, "The war could have been avoided." It is not that Finkelstein ignores the fact that Israel did not allow numerous Hizbullah cross-border incidents and provocations to descend into a full-scale war between 2000 and 2006, but rather that his comments betray his real attitude, i.e. THE NEED FOR A PERPETUAL WAR AGAINST ISRAEL UNTIL ISRAEL IS DEFEATED, EVEN IF IT IS ACROSS A RECOGNIZED INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY SEPARATING TWO INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN NATIONS. The interviewer pops the big question, "Is there no other way than military resistance?" , to which Finkelstein gives his "piece de la resistance": "I don't believe there is another way. I wish there were another way. who wants war? Who wants destruction? Even Hitler didn't want war. He would much prefer to have accomplished his aims peacefully, if he could. So I am not saying that I want it, but I honestly don't see another way, unless you choose to be their slaves". And finally, "There will be a leader who comes to power in Israel, who is willing to make the concessions after the conditions have been created, namely, Israel has to suffer a defeat." It is now possible to read Finkelstein like an open book. This is not about Israel living in peace on one side of the international Blue Line border, and Lebanon on the other, and everything being hunky dory. Such a border already exists. Neither is this about a minor border issue dispute, like the Shebaa Farms issue, as Finkelstein never even brought it up. This is about what Fidel Castro called "the war of ideas", and it is clear that Finkelstein harbors a deep-seated hatred against Israel and everything it represents to the extent that he is willing to see the territory of a neighboring country, which Israel does not occupy (as confirmed by the UN), be deployed as a spring board and a launch pad for a perpetual war against Israel, until it is "defeated", in order to execute an idea, HIS idea, regardless of the ideas of the Lebanese people themselves, and regardless of the ideas of the striking arm which he is goading into waging this war. But of course, conveniently, he will not be the one involved in the execution and realization of this glorious idea, and the inevitable death and destruction it will lead to across the board. This is not scholarship, and the Wikipedia article should stop trying to sugar coat Finkelstein as some sort of great guru or scholar. This is indoctrination and preaching of incitement, and Alan Dershowitz should be commended for confronting him in debates and taking him to task for his endless polemics. J.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob Davidson (talk • contribs)

Speaking of polemics, don't forget to sign yours. Pinkville (talk) 01:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
In regards to "Never Forgive, Never Forget", this jewish journalist seems to contradict what you're saying when she says the advice "never forgive, never forget" was from her upbringing in an article unrelated to Finkelstein. Is she lying too? You seem to be using an interview as an attack on all the work he's produced throughout his professional career. Furthermore, you're commending Alan Dershowitz, a man who's constantly tried to smear his opponents by calling them anti-semites, holocaust deniers, etc, for the slander he's committed against Finkelstein. Coeus (talk) 14:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, we can get Norman to cosign, because much of my "polemic" is based on quotes that come directly from him. But then again, I am not claiming to be a scholar in the field, nor seeking tenure on this subject, nor am I accusing him of plagiarising his work simply because I oppose his point of view. J.D. Jacob Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.28.112 (talk) 04:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Support of Hezbollah

Hey guys, I added a section to this about his declared support for Hezbollah. I don't have too much experience though with adding sections and for some reason the bullets got under my paragraph. Anybody know how to separate those bullets into a separate section? Also, we need some more in the section I just wrote, including reactions, etc. Thanks a lot

Brad Kgj08 (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't necessarily a catalogue of recent events. The article attempts to be a considered biographical piece, representing each piece of his life with due weight (see WP:WEIGHT). This stuff that has happened in the last few weeks does not deserve an entire section to itself. If it can be incorporated into an existing section, or a new section with a wider scope, then that would be fine. This is a GA-class article... While it isn't guarded with the intensity of an FA, it'd be nice to keep it high quality and well supported anyway to maintain its recognition. Avruch T 21:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you about recentism. However, I think we do need such a section to record his support e.g. for a two state solution and for violent resistance to Israel. It happens that the items cited up to now are recent, but that isn't the same as recentism. --Peter cohen (talk) 21:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we need an entire section for one view, or for events that have just barely occurred. If there is going to be a political activity section, which is potentially reasonable if he is politically active on a regular basis, then it should include more than just this incident and it should probably be proposed here before adding it into the article. I'm not going to edit war with you about it, but I do not want the section as is part of the article and I suspect I'm not the only one among regular editors of this article. Avruch T 21:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I similarly dislike the section as it currently stands. The point form is ugly and, in fact, the section says nothing about his political activity; a small selection of quotes probably isn't the best way to summarise his political activity - or even his political views (which is closer to where the current section is leading). Pinkville (talk) 01:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to edit war with you either. But I only fact-tagged the two state solution thing within the last hour and would have rather that it was left there a bit longer to see if someone could come up with a WP:RS.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I can understand your intent, and I don't think its a very problematic violation of WP:BLP, but it is technically controversial and unsourced and as such its traditionally removed and reinserted only when cited. Avruch T 22:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Brad.
I've now incorporated your point into the bullet lists. If you had edited the political views section you would have a seen an asterisk before each item. That is the way bulleting is done.
Please also note that it is against Wikipedia to editorialise. You can't just claim Finkestein is a traitor; you need to find a reliable source mentioning Finkelstein being denounced by a notable person and report that the person called him a traitor. Similarly, if you want to show that Hitler was evil, you can either quote various sources that describe him as evil, or you could record the facts that he ordered the invasion of many coutries and in the Holocaust he caused the deaths of approx 6m Jews and 5m others. Then you can let the readers decide he was evil. It is also against Wikipedia policy to carry out WP:Original Research which includes connmecting the dots in arguments. So you can't go, Finkelstein gave his support to Hezbollah, Hezbollah killed lot's of Finkelstein's compatriots, people who support organisations that kill their compatriots are traitors, therefore FInkestein is a traitor; you have to find a reliable source that shows those dots being joined by someone else. I hope this helps.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I did not make any more conclusions/assumptions other than what the article mentioned. I should have maybe included the quote from the article about treason. I certainly never said anything conclusively as to whether or not it was treason. Also, support of Hezbollah is a huge deal. Virually ever supporter of the KKK will have a mention of that in the first paragraph of their wikipedia page. Supporting a terror organization is an extremely important fact to note. It should not be made to look like a minor point at the end of an article. This needs to be in the first paragraph. Hezbollah is a terror organization devoted to killing thousands based on a radical ideology. Support of this group is an extremely important piece of biographical information that should be mentioned in the initial paragraph. The same would be done with any right wing hate group in this country (KKK, Westboro Baptist, etc.) I wouldn't at all be surprised if in the next year we see this man actually tried for treason for his support for Hezbollah. If this man is about to be tried for treason (how often does this happen?), then isn't his support of Hezbollah extremely important to note? After all, this could end up being what puts him in prison for life (or even what puts him to death). -Brad Kgj08 (talk) 01:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I removed the Hizbollah line you added to the opening section - placing the phrase there gives it undue weight - particularly as Finkelstein's support for Hizbollah is nuanced and not at all fulsome. Pinkville (talk) 01:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Read what I said. His support of Hezbollah could put him in prison for the rest of life, if not, get him killed. I think this is an extremely important biographical fact. Kgj08 (talk) 01:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Lots of things could get him killed or put him in prison for the rest of his life or otherwise negatively affect his life. A recent example: the infamous denial of tenure at De Paul. The point is, his "support" for Hizbollah is qualified, and should be contextualised. It isn't support for Hizbollah, per se, it's support for people's right to oppose invasion and attack. Whatever he's said about Hizbollah (or any other organisation) ought not to be added as a key feature of his career/life in the lead - it's just one example of his overall political-intellectual approach and thought. Pinkville (talk) 01:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay if you think that Hezbollah fights for justifiable reasons, then when you read that, you'll think of Finkelstein as a supporter of a good cause. But if there are readers who think he supports a terror organization, then they will draw that conclusion about him. People can draw their own conclusions from that. Hezbollah has killed more Americans than any other organization in the world except for Al Qaeda. Americans might wish to know that little bit of information. You do recognize that this could get him tried for treason? This goes a little bit past a "political-intellectual approach" fact. Kgj08 (talk) 01:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with what I or anyone else thinks - apart from Finkelstein, of course. And this isn't about Hizbollah. As for Finkelstein's impending trial for treason, let's not waste time with speculations as to what could or might happen in some even darker world than the one we presently inhabit - we're writing an encyclopedia article about what is - at least I hope we are. In fact, read the Fox News (!!??) article again, or better, listen to the Lebanese TV interview itself (it's linked on the article page). He doesn't at all say that he supports Hizbollah - he says he feels "solidarity" with them:
"I have no problem saying that I do want to express solidarity with them, and I'm not going to be a coward or a hypocrite about it. I don't care about Hizbullah as a political organization. I don't know much about their politics and anyhow, it's irrelevant. I don't live in Lebanon. It's a choice that the Lebanese have to make: who they want to be their leaders..." (transcribed from Future TV)
Hardly a ringing endorsement. "Solidarity" is a very different issue than "support", and saying that he "[doesn't] care about Hizbollah as a political organisation contradicts the assertion that he supports them. Pinkville (talk) 02:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Political activity" section

Ah, just a reminder of the 3 revert rule... let's not spin out of control. Having looked again at the cited source - and the interview itself, the assertion that Finkelstein supports Hizbollah is simply inaccurate and shouldn't appear in the article for that reason above any other. Pinkville (talk) 02:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The first paragraph of this article discusses how he is an expert on Israeli-Palestinian affairs... you don't think that he knows about the politics of Hezbollah? That line at the end was bs. But the fact that he "WANTS to express solidarity" suggests that he stands by them and what they stand for. -Brad 128.175.121.46 (talk) 00:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
We can't assume anything about what he knows of Hizbollah. Of course, we can include anything notable and citable that demonstrates what he does know. Expressing solidarity with a people - or a group - does not necessarily mean that one "stands by them and what they stand for" - stands by them, sure. But one may sympathise with a resistance movement without supporting its political or religious, etc. programme. Unless Finkelstein says something more on the subject, there's not enough information to draw any conclusions or to coherently deal with the issue in his biography. Pinkville (talk) 01:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and one of the things I noticed about that MEMRI piece is that it appears to be heavily edited - and not just the video, but the transcription as well. In such circumstances, it's easy to take one or two comments out of context and use them to give a distorted picture of the speaker's views. Gatoclass (talk) 14:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Right. Notice that the Fox News excerpts further cut what Finkelstein said, so that the quote above ended with, I don't care about Hezbollah as a political organization. I don't know much about their politics and anyhow, it's irrelevant, leaving out the reason why Finkelstein's thoughts about Hizbollah are irrelevant - that he doesn't live in Lebanon and that Hizbollah's political standing in the country depends on the Lebanese. Of course, Fox News goes on to quote him out of context several times more, and even to completely misrepresent what he said about the Resistance and Communists in WWII... par for the course where that Media Organ is concerned. That source should probably be removed as fatally inaccurate. Pinkville (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I myself have been tempted to take this rambling material out, but have not acted, because while it looks poor compared to the rest of a reasonably chiselled article, clearly it tries to record information of some interest. To avoid an edit war, I suggest we vote, and I hope most of those who have a record of editing on the page to produce a relatively good article participate, vote whether or not to relocate here the gallimaufry of recentist data patched into the article, so that its merits can be discussed. User:Avruch has bannered it under Wiki:Recentism, and I too at a glance thught it violates WP:Undue, and at the least it does require the kind of severe controlled editing to concise paraphrase much of the article has achieved. Thank you Nishidani (talk) 18:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure, let's move it to the talk page - or vote to move it to the talk page - or whatever. Mind you, I think it can be removed immediately - first, because the quotes have nothing to do with the section heading: Political activity; second, because the information/quotes are decontextualised, vague, and (without more context and further research) trivial; third, because the sources are verifiably faulty (e.g. FoxNews's fractured transcribed excerpts, MemriTV's edited clip of the interview, etc.); and fourth, because the material fails the tests of Wiki:Recentism and WP:Undue. Pinkville (talk) 19:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be removed - it does not accurately reflect his comments, is not representative of the full history of his political activity (assuming there is such a history) and focuses only on events in the last two months which don't need to figure significantly in an article about the entire life of an individual. Avruch T 19:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that the focus should be on improving rather than deleting the section. Yes the quotes are recent, but the article has been prone to recentism for at least a year with the whole tenure business. He may or may not get a new post somewhere. But what he does with his enforced sabbatical period is of interest, especially when it involves touring parts of the Middle East. His meeting with representatives of Hizbollah is also an indication of how he is viewed outside academic circles, as is his gaining air space on various Arabic channels. Also his positions on the matters mentioned in the section (support for armed resistance to Israel, wariness about the Tehran conference and how he would be used) are useful in helping people understand his position.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a matter of deleting anything. The suggestion is to remove to this page a poorly worked, badly sourced patchwork of material. I will now do this if it has not already been done. A formal vote hasn't been taken, but old hands familiar with the page seem to agree that it is simply not up to snuff for presentation there in this form, and need extensive review and reworking, perhaps by the originator of the edit. Nishidani (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] =Text removed for reworking

Political activity

 This article or section may be slanted towards recent events.
Please try to keep recent events in historical perspective.
  • Finkelstein has reluctantly supported a Two State Solution as a "necessary step" towards resolution of the conflict. In an interview with Jelle Bruinsma in Groningen on 6 December 2007, he stated:

    No, I do not support a two-state solution. I don't support states. I remain an old-fashioned communist, I don't change my views so radically. I see no value whatsoever in states. If the borders were to disappear between every state in the world, I think it would be a much happier place. I don't support it, in the sense that I support it as a principle. I support it in the sense only that in terms of trying to reduce the suffering and the harm of the Palestinians (and, actually, to prevent Israel from self-destructing), it seems to me a necessary step towards trying to create a better world, a more humane world.[1]

  • In January 2008 in an interview with Lebanese Future TV, Finkelstein said, "leaders come last. There will be a leader who comes in to power in Israel who is willing to make the concessions, after the conditions have been created - namely, Israel has to suffer a defeat". [2]
  • In January 2008 Finkelstein made a lecture tour of Lebanon during which he met with high-ranking leaders of Hezbollah and defended the organization saying that Hezbollah represents "hope."[3]
  • On January 20, 2008, an interview with Finkelstein was conducted in Arabic in which he announced his support for Hezbollah. "I have no problem saying that I do want to express solidarity with them, and I'm not going to be a coward and a hypocrite about it," Finkelstein said to the interviewer. [4][5]
  • After that, in the same month, he made a series of lectures in British univerisities to present his points of views. Among these views he suggested that Palestinians should destroy the separation wall by picks and hammers and say "The International Court of Justice (ICJ) said this wall has to be dismantled".
  • In February 2008 in an interview with Al Jazeera English he described Israel as a lunatic state and said: "(Israel) has gone berserk. The whole world is yearning for peace, and Israel is constantly yearning for war." [6]
  • Finkelstein rejected an invitation to participate in Tehran's Review of the Holocaust conference in December 2006.[7]Nishidani (talk) 22:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Such a Great Guy

Obviously, this article is controled by Finkelstein's supporters. Why not get it over with, eliminate the criticism entirely, and publish ten thousand words of praise for the Great Finkelstein?68.111.71.197 (talk) 08:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Since I visited this page a year or 2 ago it seems highly biased people (obviosuly in favour of Finkelstein) have taken control of this page and removed various legitimate academic criticisms of his work. I remember one in particular of a Professor of History Marc Saperstein. Others have suffered a similar fate. The only ones which remain are where Finkelstein has had huge run-ins with the authors and issued extensive rebuttals, thus conveniently explaining away the original criticsm of his work as sour grapes. This page is highly biased, selective, and full of only partial truths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.185.65.97 (talk) 01:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Rather than complaining, why don't you guys contribute to the article if you find that it's missing something of importance. You do know this article is free to be edited right? As long as the edits pass Wikipedia guidelines then there would be no reason to remove them. If there is anything in particular that you feel shouldn't have been removed then please point it out. Please be specific in regards to the "various legitimate academic criticism". Look at the article history and point out what has been taken out without reason. C'mon people, this is an open process. Coeus (talk) 02:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Finkelstein's Support for Hezbollah

I find it incredibly surprising that Mr. Finkelstein's comments in support of Hezbollah, which he himself has posted on his website, have been kept from this article. Whether you agree with him or not, this is extremely controversial (given that many Western nations - including my own of Canada) have listed Hezbollah as a banned terrorist organization. I have added the section "Support for Terrorism" - and the citation is from Mr. Finkelstein's own website. It is my hope that, in an enthusiastic effort to shield the public from Mr. Finkelstein's controversial statements, his supporters will not remove this relevant content from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finlaggen (talk • contribs) 16:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed it. If you have added it again, or do so, it will most likely be removed again. Per our policies on articles about living people, found here, material added to this article that is contentious, controversial or likely to be challenged must be referenced appropriately. Additionally, strict scrutiny (not in the legal sense) is applied to the inclusion of material on this article to ensure that it adheres to other article policies - such as verifiability and undue weight. Avruch T 16:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
At minimum the title was highly POV, we can't have a section title that says "support for terrorists". JoshuaZ (talk) 17:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Certainly. But perhaps it is time to work on this material. Approached with equanimity it shouldn't take long to find a neutral and synthetic note on his Lebanese tour. Finlaggen and Amoruso have a point, and the fact that this material so far hasn't been worked into the text only tends to give rise to a suspicion that somehow there is a concerted attempt to 'cover up the shocking truth'. But to avoid editing skirmishes and revert wars, the proper place to do this is on the talk page. In the preceding section I carved out a text that gave undue weight to recent opinions, as if they were somehow scandalous. I should like to have it noted for the record that I did not excerpt that material from the text in order to exclude it, but because it was too lengthy and poorly framed, and required careful and consensual editing, towards a neutral synthesis. Nishidani (talk) 17:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In February when it was proposed (see above) it was a recent event that some were trying to cover with the same prominence as other whole categories of Finkelstein's life and work. There might reasonably be a way to include some information about the tour of Lebanon in an existing section - it certainly doesn't need paragraphs to itself. Avruch T 17:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay. How about altering the title to read "Solidarity with Hezbollah" - which is in fact the precise wording that Finkelstein himself uses. In terms of accurate referencing, I did provide the website link to the entire transcript in question (on Mr. Finkelstein's own website).
As many have said, sections like this tend to be ephemeral and weigh too much to incidental matters. A brief synthesis of work already done (checked against the sources) along the following lines, under a section Recent Views,might runs, for example, something like this:-

Finkelstein has supported, reluctantly as an old-fashioned communist, since he is opposed to states, a Two State Solution, as a measure to relieve Palestinian suffering.[8] He has argued that some form of defeat is necessary for Israel as a precondition for the emergence of a leader ready to make what he thinks are the necessary concessions for a peaceful settlement.[9] He has expressed his support for Hezbollah as representative of 'hope',[10][11] He favours a Palestinian movement to dismantle the Israeli West Bank barrier, on the grounds that the ICJ has ruled it is illegal. He has defined Israel as a ‘lunatic state’, out of touch with a world that yearns for peace.[12] He declined to participate in the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, to which he had been invited.[13]

Just a suggestion.Nishidani (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
That looks to me like a fine assembly of the controversial points, which invites the reader to either investigate further or move on. PRtalk 09:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, at least someone replied! I would appreciate it if Avruch could give us an opinion as to whether it might be included or not. His judiciousness on these things has been a guide for me, and I hope for all.Nishidani (talk) 09:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see that this section was continuing. At the moment, much of the article is focused on Finkelstein's published work and its criticism and support, as well as the DePaul controversy and (most recently) the deportation from Israel. Including his un-published views would be a step in a new direction for the article. The paragraph above is more finely structured than a bullet point list of publicized (but not "published" per se) political statements, but ultimately I think we'll be listing views that are presented without a common thread because we're not using a reliable source that synthesizes these views into a whole with meaning. Does that make sense? We could trial it in the article and see what others think, although I'd like it if the first sentence there could be rewritten. Its a little awkward (understandably so, of course, given the way he expressed his view). AvruchT * ER 18:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] lead

the lead paragraph of this article is way to long. can the resident editors please shorten it. thnx. ephix (talk) 09:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've made a go at shortening the lead as requested. The problem is now, however, that what remains makes far too much, as lead material, of both his loss of tenure and his deportation. If my edit were acceptable, then it follows those two paras would also have to be pared down, with part of their material reintegrated into the appropriate sections.Nishidani (talk) 09:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
If my edit is acceptable, then the further edit required to keep the lead short and balanced (in terms of content weighting for relevance) would look something like this:

Finkelstein was denied tenure at DePaul in June 2007, after a controversial campaign to have him dismissed, and subsequently resigned after a private settlement with the university, which stood by its decision but praised him as a 'prolific and outstanding teacher' [14] On May 23, 2008 Finkelstein was declared persona non grata by Israel and deported from the country. [15]

Were this also acceptable, the relevant original paras. in the lead could then be relocated down the page. These paras are:

- Tenure controversy -

(1) Amidst considerable public debate, Finkelstein was denied tenure at DePaul in June 2007, and placed on administrative leave for the 2007-2008 academic year. Among the controversial aspects of this decision were attempts by Alan Dershowitz, a notable opponent of Finkelstein's, to derail Finkelstein's tenure bid.[16] On September 5, 2007 Finkelstein announced his resignation after coming to a settlement with the university on generally undisclosed terms.[17][18] An official statement from DePaul strongly defended the decision to deny Finkelstein tenure, and asserted that outside influence played no role in their decision. The statement also praised Finkelstein "as a prolific scholar and outstanding teacher."[14]

- Expulsion from Israel -

(2) On May 23, 2008 Finkelstein was denied entry to Israel because, according to unnamed Israeli security officials, of suspicions that "he had contact with elements 'hostile' to Israel". Finkelstein was questioned after his arrival at Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv and placed on a flight back to Amsterdam, his point of origin. Officials said that the decision to deport Finkelstein was connected to his anti-Zionist opinions and criticism of Israel.[19] He was banned from entering the country for 10 years.[20]

Well, pretty ambitious, and perhaps unnecessary? The tenure denial passage in the lead could simply be dropped and removed, since the body of the article has covered it in great detail. That leaves a section to be introduced with the details of the deportationNishidani (talk) 10:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the lead was long compared to some other articles, but the detrimental effect of a long intro is minimal in my opinion - its just a stylistic issue, outweighed by the value of having a cogent summary in the article and the history involved in hammering out an introduction acceptable to all the regular editors. If its clear that we shouldn't return to the prior version (which I think we should if only because so much effort went into it) then I think I'd remove the persona non grata issue from the intro, at a minimum, and see about broadening the review of the article without adding too much in length if possible. AvruchT * ER 15:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Sensible. I see Gatoclass also was worried by the experiment's second part. I, for one, take you both as authoritative on this, and won't touch it further. I was trying to be responsive to the editor who complained. Still,Avruch, you do have a point about the persona non grata issue. Not for me to mess with now, having proved only that I can be a nuisance.Nishidani (talk) 17:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

No nuisance at all. Condensing the lead is a worthy goal, but it might be difficult given the work that went into constructing it. Maybe if we try to condense one paragraph at a time on the talk page? I'll post the first paragraph here, and a suggestion for condensing it.

Slightly shorter, we could probably do something similar with the other paragraphs. Thoughts? AvruchT * ER 18:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the other paragraphs need more than compression. As the lede stands, can't see the wood (NF is an outspoken critic of Israeli policy and the use of the Holocaust to promote her interests; consequently he has been embroiled in several controversies with academics and others who hold opposing views) for the trees (loss of tenure and deportation).--Peter cohen (talk) 18:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that can at least partly be explained by the fact that this is a biographic article that seeks a scope greater than summarizing his views and the associated controversy. We don't want to unbalance what makes him prominent (his work, the critics, the controversy) with biographical details, but certainly the key details should be included in the lead as significant to his life if not why he's notable. AvruchT * ER 18:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Finkelstein doesn't actually write about the holocaust, but rather about its political use. I think we should reflect this in the intro; perhaps it should say "issues including the aftermath of the Holocaust", or something similar. RolandR (talk) 19:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Avruch's précis looks pretty good to me.RolandR has a point. Perhaps if 'including the politics of the Holocaust heritage' were inserted, Roland's point could be accommodated to what is a classy, because stylistically neat and succinct, reworking.Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I am opposed to changes to the lead, including those suggested by Avruch above. There is nothing wrong with the lead as it stands, and it was the result of considerable consultation not so long ago. The lead is brief enough to be quickly read, and detailed enough to give a good overview of the subject. It's fine as it is. Gatoclass (talk) 20:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thesis - Time Immorial

Who is the author of the thesis chapter. If he has read the thesis, how comes he doesn't know its title? Admittedly this makes me a little hesitant about the content. But I haven't looked closer into this but something confuses me here. Anyway I'll delete "Finkelstein on Times Immorial", and add the real thesis title with a link. Is that OK? Once you know it is easy to find.

Could the the 84 entry under bibliography really be his master thesis? LeaNder (talk) 23:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)