Talk:Nordic race

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[edit] Blue-eyed Romans

user:GaiusCrastinus seems to be keen to "prove" the Nordicist claim that Roman heroes were blue-eyed and/or fair haired. I suggest that it would be better to concentrate on what Nordicists claimed and what their opponents said in response rather than using primary sources too much. Primary sources are not excluded, but we should concentrate on secondaries. It's very difficult after all to know what Roman writers intended by descriptions, and even more problematic to map them onto racial categories. Also adding this material to "Attitudes in Ancient Europe" is misleading. That about ancient attitudes to so-called Nordic characteristics (both attitudes to northern barbarians and to the physical features associated with them). The theory that the early empire-building patricians were of the Nordic race is not something that exists in ancient culture itself (obviously). It's something that later theorists claim on the basis of descriptions. It's a products of the 1900s, not the ancient world. Paul B (talk) 15:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

But something that would be "convenient" to GaiusCrastinus, seemingly a fair Italian with an ideological (the R word fits better here) axe to grind? "I am Central European!!!! S. Europe sux!!!!". It's depressing that the attitudes described in this article still exist (in a fairly small minority, thank God), eh? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad I haven't been the only one to notice this guy. I checked his contributions extensively, and it seems he's bent on keeping the North-South Italy divide as strong as it ever has been. I found one of his edits rather amusing in its blatant racism; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_supremacy&diff=prev&oldid=194384155 as he replaced the "Italians" entry with "Southern Italians", when the reference provided (a 1904 British Civil Service book) was intended for the original wording. The only useful edits I've seen inevitably pertain to subjects directly related to Nordicism, such as White supremacy, blondism, etc. Very concerning edit habits. Sicilianmandolin (talk) 21:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

For years, it has been popular among Nordic supremacists to try to attach an invisible "Nordic ruling class" to many successful non-Nordic (or even non-European) civilizations throughout history. There is really no good academic argument for these concepts, and not much evidence. Some Nordicists have simply taken this movement a step further and tried to attribute Nordic coloration to entire populations of the ancient world. Either way, supremacist mythology does not belong in a encyclopedia article, and anyone consistantly making such edits to destroy the academic credibility of Wikipedia should be admonished. -Art —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.101.150 (talk) 18:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

A good deal of this stuff should be deleted as per WP:OR. For instance, part of the caption under the image of Augustus reads:
"Suetonius described Augustus's hair as a bit golden (subflavum) and his eyes as clear and bright (oculus habuit claros ac nitidos)"
This is straightforward OR. And bad OR, at that. "Claros ac nitidos" is not caeruleus, the specific word used by Romans to describe blue or green eyes. Sources for this can be found in plenty: Tacitus, Germania 4. 4; Horace, Epodes 16. 7; Juvenal, Satires 13. 164. Suetonius' remark is to be understood as referring to the health and alertness of Augustus' eyes - not their colour. —Aryaman (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't speak Latin. The translation was added by an editor who does. Translation as such is not deemed to be OR as long as the original text is included. In this case the translation does not say "blue", but "clear and bright". That does not alter the fact that Nordicists repeatedly used this and other passages to justify the claim that "an invisible Nordic ruling class", as 71.142.101.150 says above, were present in Rome. The caption does not say "Roman leaders were blue eyed". It says that Nordicists claimed they were, and that certainly isn't OR, because they did claim that! Of course if user:GaiusCrastinus had his way, it would say they were "really" blue eyed, which is why it's been changed to the current form. Paul B (talk) 13:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Fine, Paul. And where's the citation showing that this passage from Suetonius (or others like it) has been used to push Nordicist Gedankengut? Or that claros ac nitidos has been misinterpreted as caeruleus by Nordicist crackpots? Unless Gaius Crastinus or anyone else can come up with the goods on that, it remains OR. I'm not arguing with the translation: as such, it's fine. I'm asking for some substantiation for the claim "Nordicists repeatedly used this and other passages to justify the claim that "an invisible Nordic ruling class" ... were present in Rome." I'm not saying they don't. But let's see the sources for it. —Aryaman (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's a flavour of this kind of thing from Hans Gunther's book The Racial Elements in European History, Chapter VIII, part 3, The Nordic Race in History and Prehistory:

Under the Empire the height for the army had to be brought down to 1.48 metres. The Roman nobility, however, seems often to have still been recognizable by its fair hair. Anyone belonging to the wealthy and fashionable class who had dark hair liked to hide it: Juvenal (Sat., vi. 120) tells us of Messalina that she hid her black hair under a fair wig. The rich upstarts (homines novi) made their black-haired wives and daughters buy fair hair from Germany. In this way it was hoped to win a 'noble appearance.' Ovid mentions the custom of fair wigs. Juvenal, Martial, Lucan, and Pliny mention methods of dyeing the hair blond. Caracalla, of African-Asiatic blood, often used (according to Herodian) to put on a fair wig and walk about in Germanic garb. Horace's ideal of beauty is Nordic, although he was himself dark, short, and fat. Vergil's ideal of beauty is Nordic. But among the living, too, fair hair is still to be seen: the swarthy Ovid knew two blond Hellene women. His ideal of beauty is founded on the Nordic race: he paints Romulus and Lucretia as fair. The swarthy Tibullus calls Delia blond; Martial speaks of several blond contemporaries; Horace names blond women; and other writers name other blond men and women who have played a part in history. Apuleius, born in an African colony, a member of an old Roman family, and a follower of Platonism, calls himself tall, slender, and blond. Most of the sculptures representing Romans have a Nordic, or predominantly Nordic, expression. The narrow face, the long head, the sharp chin, the 'Roman nose,' taken all together make up heads which do not differ from hard Nordic heads of our time. His was already struck by the fact that Marcus Antonius, Caesar, Galba, Vespasian, and Trajan had a shape of the head which he had called the 'High Mountain form' after his discoveries in his own country, Switzerland, and which now is recognized as the shape of the Nordic head. Augustus himself was (according to Suetonius) very fair, and had light eyes; his mild expression recalls certain calm Nordic men.

Paul B (talk) 13:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. So we can boil down the caption to read:
"The Roman emperor Augustus. H.F.K. Günther (1927) argued that the description of Augustus in Suetonius' Lives of twelve Caesars suggested that he displayed "Nordic qualities" (e.g. that he was "fair", had "light eyes" and a "mild expression")."
The Latin - if to be included at all (as Günther does not take note of it) - should be moved as a footnote into into the ref with a simple translation. —Aryaman (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Fine. Paul B (talk) 14:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Done. Also, while checking the Latin, I hit upon subflavum > sufflavum and changed accordingly; further, my dictionary has "light blond" instead of the previous "a bit golden" (?). It's a widely circulated dictionary out of Germany: Germanophobes might contest the translation, and are urged to do so provided they can supply a better one. —Aryaman (talk) 14:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
PS.: I do hope that passages such as the one quoted from Günther above are not the kind of thing being used to substantiate the claim that "Nordicists repeatedly used this and other passages to justify the claim that "an invisible Nordic ruling class" ... were present in Rome." Because that is not what Günther is saying here. He's saying that the Roman 'ideal of beauty' was derived from the characteristics found in a portion of the 'noble' class - something non-controversial in itself. His addition is to align this with what he (and others) termed 'Nordic'. The thrust of the passage is this: the 'Nordic' features found in some of the 'noble' class of Romans had a palpable effect on the Roman 'ideal of beauty' - so much so, that 'non-Nordic' Romans of the upper class felt the need to imitate their 'fairer' associates. Whether or not he is right is beside the question, of course. But linking this passage to a theory regarding an "invisible Nordic ruling class" (an oxymoron, seeing as how this 'Nordic' element was, above all else, an apparent one) would seem unwarranted. (In fact, one could argue that Günther is talking more about the artistic and literary portrayal of Roman nobility by their fellow Romans rather than their actual 'pedigree'.) But, more direct passages can be found from Günther and Co. regarding this 'theory'...right? —Aryaman (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand what you are saying here. Gunther believes that there is a definable biological entity to be labelled the "Nordic race". He is arguing that the upper classes of ancient Rome belonged to this race and that the more parvenu classes, who were not Nordic, had to mimic it by wearing wigs etc to pastiche belonging to this race. The evidence he presents - which is is very selective and distorted - is designed to support that claim. This is not to say that Augustus and others were not blond. Of course, they may well have been. It may even be true that these traits were more common in Italy back then. Such traits are determined by climate and selection for vitamin D synthesis. It may even have been preferred bvy sexual selection, because of the cultural connotations of the traits (blond = gold etc). Who knows? The point is that Gunther selects and models this evidence in terms of an ideologically laden Nordic/Mediterranean race distinction. Paul B (talk) 22:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I haven't read all of Günther's work, so I'm not going to argue with you about what he 'believes'. I'm simply commenting on the passage you quoted. And if what you claim is true (and I have no reason to doubt that it is), then what you posted above appears to be (perhaps part of) the litany of 'proof' Günther delivers to prove his main thesis, according to your assertion: that the nobles in Rome were members of the 'Nordic Race'. But, to repeat myself, surely you can dig up the part where he states this as his thesis and explicitly makes this claim? Because that is the stuff that is really worth citing if you're going to prove that "Nordicists repeatedly ... claim that "an invisible Nordic ruling class" ... was present in Rome": it makes further interpretation superfluous and the unnecessary quibbling appear all the more so. So...? —Aryaman (talk) 23:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The "invisible" phrase was a comment by an anonymous editor on this talk page. It's not in the article. The evidence concerning the claim that Romans were Nordic is already in the article, albeit in footnotes. If you think it could be clearer, by all means edit it. Paul B (talk) 22:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I didn't follow your debate here completely, but I'll change the sentences on the Nordic theory at Race of ancient Egyptians a little, then. Unfortunately I don't think that I'll find the time to expand this article with the material from Lutzhöft, though. After all, that book is a dissertation at a history department, the author spent several years on it and it even won a price. Zara1709 (talk) 14:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • WOW an entire section dedicated to me..well i can tell you that i'm just interested in anthropology , i'm not a nordicist and i'm not a mediterraneanist..i'm neutral..and my principal source is Carleton Coon..i hate Gunther and the other nordicist..

this is what Coon said..

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-04.htm

and btw i don't know what Sicilianmandolin think but there are many difference between a Lombard and a Sicilian..and i've edited the blondism page because that page is based upon a ridiculous map adopted by Peter Frost without any source..none serious study confirm those percentages..for example 20-49% of blondism in Apulia

and obviously there were romans blond , what's the problem ???

look..modern romans blond..

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u113/eliderossi86/DDR/cb6d851d27.jpg Daniele De Rossi

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1103/totti34tb.jpg Francesco Totti

in modern Latium blond hair range range from 9% to 11% , red hair about 1% i think that in the I century B.C. there was the same percentage

they must be descendants of the barbarians , right ?? what a load of c**** !! oh..i'm italian..a real italian not an italian-american..bye ! --GaiusCrastinus (talk) 13:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

  • @ 3rdAlcove "I am Central European!!!! S. Europe sux!!!!". It's depressing that the attitudes described in this article still exist"..are you drunk ?? i've never said that ! i've only said that in Northern and Central Italy is prevalent the Alpine race just like in France,Bavaria,part of Austria = Central Europe..probably you don't know that blondism both in eye and hair is not a prerogative of the nordic race ..Czech are almost all alpine but blue eyes are about 62% of the population (according with Coon)..so ?? even Mediterraneans can be depigmentated..open a book !! --GaiusCrastinus (talk) 14:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Gaius,you are adding this stuff to an article sabout the Nordic race and Nordicism, so don't pretend that discussion of those issues is irrelevant or misperception. That's what this article is about. If you were trying to prove that north Italians are 'Alpine', why were you adding it to the artcle on Nordics? That does not make much sense. Carleton Coon is not a reliable source on anthropology any more, only on the scientific models that prevailed in the mid 20th century, when he was working. Paul B (talk) 14:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
actually there aren't modern anthropological studies about european races...Coon is the most reliable source that we have..it's funny that you quote Coon only when he says that the Nordic race in Greek is rare since the time of Homer but you don't quote Coon when he says that the Romans were the descendants of the Villanovians (who came from Central Europe) anyway A BUST OF AUGUSTUS FROM SUDAN [1]. i see gray-blue eyes as Suetonius and Plutarch confirm..this is my last comment here..i swear that i will not edit this article anymore. -GaiusCrastinus (talk) 14:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There aren't modern studies similar to Coon because the categories he deploys are not longer considered useful. Hence the fact that he is no longer reliable. There are numerous modern genetic studies tracing lineages, eg, Stephen Oppenheimer, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena etc. Coon is not quoted in this article for evidence of facts about racial difference, but of attitudes among theorists at the time he wrote. If you could contextualise the sources you use there would be no problem about including his views on Roman origins, while remembering not to stray from what this article is suppossed to be about. Paul B (talk) 14:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
the problem is that you people think that blondness is sign of nordic ancestry while taken by itself, it is nothing of the kind...just to clarify Carleton Coon was not a nordicist , he was proud of his Cornish-mediterranean ancestry, he dislike even the "yellow hair" --GaiusCrastinus (talk) 15:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Sowhy have you been adding the info to an article on the Nordic race? Paul B (talk) 15:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

which info ? i just added three biography of three romans just to show that not all the romans were dark-haired and dark eyed , NOT to show that the romans were a sort of swedish of the ancient times !! you have totally misunderstood my intentions ! --GaiusCrastinus (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)