Talk:NKVD prisoner massacres

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What a remarkable example of Polonocentrism. Were not NKVD prisoners massacred elsewhere? --Ghirla -трёп- 13:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's polonocentrism - the answer is much more prosaic: it's just a stub. I do agree that info on massacres outside Poland should be added. Would you care to do this?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] For Deletion

I've put up this article for deletion for the following reasons:

  1. This stub does not list any facts that would justify a stub. IMO, before creating an acticle that groups similar events, one should first create separate articles describing each of those events.
  2. And yes, there is already an acticle on Katyn Massacre. Got more?
  3. There is absolutely no factual base under what's stated in this stub.

Zealander 05:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Katyn is not the same. This is a different massacre. --Molobo 11:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Here is an example: Richard Rhodes Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust: Quote: “Despite the deportations, Barbarossa surprised the NKVD, whose jails and prisons in the invaded western territories were crowded with political prisoners. Rather that release their prisoners as they hastened to retreat during the first week of the war, the Soviet secret police had simply slaughtered them. NKVD prisoner executions in the first week after Barbarossa totaled some ten thousand in the western Ukraine and more than nine thousand in Vinnitsa, eastward toward Kiev; comparable numbers of prisoners were executed in eastern Poland, Byelorussia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. These areas had already sustained losses numbering in the hundreds of thousands from the Stalinist purges of 1937-38. “It was not only the numbers of the executed,” historian Yury Boshyk writes of the evacuation murders, “but also the manner in which they died that shocked the populace. When the families of the arrested rushed to the prisons after the Soviet evacuation, they were aghast to find bodies so badly mutilated that many could not be identified. It was evident that many of the prisoners had been tortured before death; others were killed en masse.” In some cases, cells crowded with prisoners had been dynamited, badly mutilating the remains.” --Molobo 14:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I also nominate this article for deletion. It's a blemish on the credibility of the wiki foundation.

-G

[edit] Move?

During the RfD process it's been suggested that we moved this article to some better, more specific title. Indeed, the NKVD did massacre their prisoners in a variety of cases and not only in 1941 (Katyn in 1940, Soviet soldiers fighting for the Germans in 1945 and so on), so this page might indeed be turned into a disambiguation. However, what could be the best title to move this article to? Any ideas? //Halibutt 19:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

  • 1941 NKVD massacres of prisoners, NKVD massacres of prisoners during 1941, NKVD massacres of prisoners, 1941 ? Mieciu K 21:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Or NKVD massacres of Polish prisoners (1941). A more specific name would be nice, I agree.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Nyah, I don't think we should make this article Poland-specific. After all the same slaughter was perpetrated on Jews, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Germans and other "Soviet people", be them Polish citizens or not. NKVD massacre of prisoners (1941) could be nice though. //Halibutt 07:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree with Halibutt, between June and December of 1941 not only Poles and former Polish citizens were killed by the NKVD. Mieciu K 09:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure. ATM I can't find more "non-Polish" massacres than the two already mentioned in the article, but someone has already reported the case to WP:RRNB and hopefully more people would come to do the job. //Halibutt 09:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer the article title to be corresponded to the content, thus, NKVD massacre of Polish prisoners or NKVD massacre of prisoners from Poland. I do not like NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1941 as we would needed NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1940, NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1939, NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1938, NKVD massacre of prisoners, 1937, etc. Accodring to "Memorial" organization, they compile the list of 1mln50 thousand people executed by NKVD, most of them were executed in "massacre"-style fashion. It is a huge job to write the reasonable description of all the events, and it is not ready for now. Maybe we should start a wikiproject or something. The current article deals with Polish massacres and lets it be named accordingly abakharev 22:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

On one hand I wouldn't like to limit the scope of this article to Polish citizens only. After reading some of the comments by some of the ex-Soviet editors here in wiki I guess one could easily find the reason why. Also, as the list of the murdered are not known (and there is little chance they will be), we can't limit the scope to Poles only as there might've been other people killed there as well.
On the other hand however you are right that some date in the title would be helpful, especially if someone was willing to write articles on all the other mass purges, executions, and so on. As far as I know this was the only such large-scale massacre committed in so many places without exact lists prepared and mostly improvised. However, indeed many other mass executions were without even a staged trial and happened en masse. //Halibutt 23:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The current title is incorrect

Vinnitsa wasn't in Soviet occupied Poland but in Soviet controlled Ukraine. --Molobo 13:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Vitebsk and Minsk were not in Poland either. I moved the article back, let's see if the move discussion above (yes, Ghirlandajo, it's a hint) leads us somewhere. //Halibutt 15:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

I find the current title awkward. How about NKVD prisoner massacres? Appleseed (Talk) 18:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

How about removing POV terms like "massacre" from the title? What about "executions"? --Ghirla -трёп- 13:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
How is it POV? We even have Category:Massacres. Appleseed (Talk) 17:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
And while we are at it, why not move Katyn massacre to Katyn execution, Ghirla?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Support. Piotrus, please submit the WP:RM nomination and I will gladly give you my vote. --Irpen 18:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Bah, Irpen, you should not stop half-way - what about AfD?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
We got a little sidetracked here, so I made the move. I think it's an improvement. Appleseed (Talk) 17:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

NKVD prisoner massacres happend also in Romania/Moldova.--Tones benefit 20:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)