Talk:Nivelles gang

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[edit] CCC=

Removed the reference to the CCC. The CCC (Cellules Communistes Combattantes, or Fighting Communist Cells) were a left-wing terrorist organisation with no relation to the Nijvel gang though both were active in the same time frame (CCC from 10/84 to 12/85, Nijvel gang from 3/82 to 11/85). Contrary to the unsolved Nijvel gang crimes, the CCC case was solved when their leaders were arrested in december 1985 and trialed later. BertK 14:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nijvel gang?

Why a Dutch name for a French speaking city? Isn't Nijvel known as Nivelles in English? ---moyogo 22:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Some media uses Nijvel gang others like NY Times [1] use "Nivelles gang". --moyogo 22:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Because the French variant of the "nivelles gang" simply does not exist. They prefer "les tueurs du brabant-wallon" and not de "bande de nivelles". It is hence normal that the English world, while translating the name, had the choice between "Nijvel Gang" and "the killers of walloon-brabant". They chose to maintain the term "gang" and therefor adopted "Nijvel Gang". User:Berchemboy 30 june 2006

[edit] Militants & Gladio

Intangible, you yourself wrote : "The gang became linked to the neo-Nazi organization Westland New Post which aimed to destabilize the Belgian society and provoke an outrage of civil unrest in order "to establish a government lead by ultra-conservatives of the Parti Social-Chrétien." You say that Gladio became a possibility only six years after; what do you mean? This goal (provoking an outrage of civil unrest, etc.) was the one followed in Italy by the strategy of tension. That's called Gladio. Gladio was behind Italy's strategy of tension. The Brabant massacres, linked to the Westland New Post & SDRA-8, is thus linked to Gladio. What else are you saying when you wrote about the links between Westland NP and the Belgian gendarmerie? Tazmaniacs 16:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

That the main motive of Gladio and the strategy of tension stems from the 1990s, while the militant involvement is connected to conspiracies from even the early 1970s. They should be dealt with differently. Since they are part of a different time period, and deal with different people. Intangible 17:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
? The main motive of Gladio stems from the 1990s? Wasn't it a Cold War thing? And wasn't it supposed to be disbanded in 1990? Anyway, we're dealing here with the Brabant massacres, committed in the early 1980s. They've been linked to far right and Belgian security forces, among which the SDRA-8, which is the name of the Belgian stay-behind. Please explain yourself, I'm having trouble understanding you. Why do you say that the "main motive of Gladio [which one are you talking about? The Belgian gladio, I presume] and the strategy of tension [again, what do you refer to, not Italy I presume] stems from the 1990s"? Tazmaniacs 18:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The first parliamentary inquiry into the Nijvel gang stems from 1988. The first inquiry into Gladio stems from 1991. Intangible 19:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the whole Gladio connection a little far fetched? Why would a CIA backed group want to destabilize a US ally? And aren't there better ways to do that than random armed robberies?


[edit] About to write "Delhaize" or not , about to write "Colruyt" or not,about to write "G.B." or not,about to write "Dekaise" or not ,about to mention the names(brandnames ?)of the shops or the places where holdups and sometimes(most of the times in those cases) killings happened in Belgium and all the names of the facts attributed to certain persons (see history of this article)

--> this discussion has been transfered from the talk page of user Berchemboy <--

Dear Berchemboy,please,could you tell me why did you take the words "Delhaize" out off the text of the Nijvel Gang.Thank you. A reader.23:29 10/10/2006

Because I don't find the brand of the supermarket chain relevant in the article. If we add the name of the supermarket to the article, we also have to add the names of all the other stores and restaurants the Nijvel Gang held up. This would make the article too large and far more difficult to read. Details are not always a blessing for such an article. Berchemboy 14:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Berchemboy,

thank you for the answer. I don't know if the words "Delhaize" is relevant for you or not. But y see that you are writing:"(the supermarket brand name is irrelevant)"

and " (removing unnecessary info (second time!))".

Y am agree with you on one point,"we also have to add the names of all the other....",(y say:) .... places those persons held up.

But y don't think that "this" (writing the names)"would make the article too large and far more difficult to read"(y don't know all those names , but y would like to know them.Wouldn't mind?Thank you very much.)

If you read the article written by miss Patricia Finné,you'll see(For sure , you already did,didn't you?),she is asking for even small things,didn't she?

So,maybe Delhaize or Colruyt or other names are details for you ,but are they details for the case itself?Are they?

Yes?

A reader 20:32 wednesday 11.10.2006


Yes they are! What is the difference between the hold-up of a Delhaize-supermarket or a Colruyt-supermarket? Is it relevant in the investigation? Is there a different penalty? A different degree of crime? No, there isn't. The brand name - whether you like it or not - is irrelevant. Perhaps, it can also be useful to registrate as a user. Berchemboy 11:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Berchemboy,thank you for your answer, this is an extract of a blog of Miss Patricia Finné,in french,because y didn't find back the english version,please , read this,y don't know if you allready did,sorry for that ,and she wrote:


"RAISON POUR

LAQUELLE J'IMPLORE TOUTE PERSONNE QUI

POURRAIT DETENIR UNE INFORMATION

AUSSI MINIME SOIT-ELLE

DE ME CONTACTER VIA MON BLOG.

J'INSISTE SUR LE FAIT QUE CETTE

DEMARCHE EST FAITE A TITRE PERSONNEL DANS LE BESOIN DE

CONNAITRE LA VERITE OU EN TOUS LES CAS UNE PARTIE.

J'AI BESOIN DE TEMOIGNAGES ET NON PAS D'AVIS SUR CETTE AFFAIRE ",


so , she is begging for an information,even if the information is very small:"aussi minime soit-elle".

A reader.thursday 12/10/2006 23,50


Dear Berchemboy,

You asked  : "What is the difference between the hold-up of a

Delhaize-supermarket or a Colruyt-supermarket?"

My answer to that question is :I don't know if there is a

difference "... between the hold-up of a Delhaize-supermarket

or a Colruyt-supermarket?".

That is why I don't know

the difference between the hold-up of a Delhaize-supermarket

or a Colruyt-supermarket.

Do you know if there is a difference between the hold-up of

a Delhaize-supermarket or a Colruyt-supermarket?

Yes?No?

I don't.

You also asked :"Is it relevant in the investigation?".

Do you know if it is relevant in the investigation ?

Yes?No?

I don't know.No.I really don't know.


(y supose that you'r speaking about to mention or not the brandname Delhaize or not)

A reader ,please don't be offended ,this is not my intention.

Belgium.22:46 21/10/2006

I am still convinced that the supermarket brand name is unnecesary information and thus irrelevant. In the future, please discuss this topic on the talk-page of the article. Berchemboy 09:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thursday 09/11/2006,it is the twenty first anniversary of a fact,eight people were killed by three people armed with fireweapons in a DELHAIZE,in Aalst ,in Belgium,the saturday nine of november 1985.

Braine l'Alleud,Overijse and Aalst are communes of Belgium. Belgium has an history,and Braine l'Alleud,Overijse and Aalst have a commun history with Belgium,during a few decades,at least from september 1830. You may read on the column of congress"SEPTEMBER 1830". Just under,you also may read "september 1830" and "november 1830",about the"GOUVERNEMENT PROVISOIRE"(provisional governement)and about the"CONGRES NATIONAL"(national congress). (They were a few differents "gouvernements provisoires"(provisionals governements)during the month of september 1830). One of them occured the 26/09/1830. It is also written on the wall of the belgian parliament:(26/09/1830),then,for the congress(10/11/1830),then for the independance(18/11/1830),then following geographically the king's speech(21/07/1831),then for the constitution (07/02/1831),then for mister Surlet de Chokier(25/02/1831),then for the election of the king(04/06/1831). For the NATIONAL CONGRESS,it occured the 10/11/1830. A reader .22:58 09/11/2006.Thursday.

[edit] Nijvel Gang?

Possible Motives:

  • A.Destabilization of european countries ?:("déstabilisation des Etats d'Europe Occidentale".)


Some detectives,(belgian policemen),Balfroid,Bihay,Dussart made reports with mention of a possible destabilization of european countries. You may read this, in french,in a nice part of a report (written by Balfroid,Bihay,Dussart )on the first page of the book"L'enquête,20 ans de déstabilisation en Belgique",written by Hugo Gijsels. (...)(r.b.m.)

(dif.to read the text.)


"euillez trouver ci-joint une synthèse de pistes suivies dans le cadre de l'enquête faisant l'objet du dossier 26..."


(difficulty to read the text)


".../12 de monsieur le juge d'instruction SCHLICKER à NIVELLES."


"Les recherches ont été faites en considérant le fait que l'agression aurait été commanditée,à la base,par une organisation internationale,dans le cadre d'actions visant à la déstabilisation des Etats d'Europe Occidentale. Cette synthèse reflète la situation"


(...text dif.to read)


"à la date du"


(the text is hidden) + You may read a few more text,on that page:http://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=4&u=10031513 + +


  • B.Part of a mondial plot? Now,some people are saying it could be part of a mondial plot.(see the book of Patrick Henderickx and Patrice Debruyne,"Les protocoles de Sion".)

+ +


  • C.Some people said ,it could be for the money.' "

Tell me what's wrong please?

--81.240.253.15 22:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll tell you what's wrong: first, don't stalk me. Second, I deleted your text for the simple reason that it does not fit Wikipedia format. Third, I asked you if you read the book, because obviously you've only read the cover, which is not really much to add something here. If you provide yourself the book, I'm sure you'll have interesting things to edit. It is nice to be enthusiast about it and all, but we can't just write whatever we grab on a book cover. PS: I changed the subsection title, because again, the debate is not between me and you, but between any users of this page. I am not that interesting, cheers :) ! Tazmaniacs

[edit] Singular, plural

The first sentence of the article makes clear that it is not known if it was one group, or severals. Besides, the French term is at the plural (les tueurs). No need to mess up the rest of the article for that, as the article makes clear that the group has not been identified, and that they were various members. One group, two groups, three groups? The focus is on the killings, not on the group(s) who have not been identified. Tazmaniacs


[edit] Singular ?, plural ? I don't know.

But thanks for your answer .


Maybe someone has to create a new article with a new name to go further


with those differents facts.


One name for each fact.


By exemple:


A killing (n°1(?/?3)) in Delhaize , BRAINE L'ALLEUD 27/09/1985 s


belgium


"[[A killing(n°2(?/?3)) in a Delhaize , OVERIJSE , europe , brabant,


belgium , 27/09/1985]]"


"[[A killing(n°3(?/?3)) in a Delhaize , AALST , europe , ,


belgium,27/09/1985]]"


What do you think about this proposal ?


A reader.Belgium.--213.49.135.135 14:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the whole Gladio connection a little far fetched? Why would a CIA backed group want to destabilize a US ally? And aren't there better ways to do that than random armed robberies?