Talk:Nitrogen narcosis

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This article is part of WikiProject SCUBA, an effort to create, expand, organize, and improve Scuba diving-related articles to a feature-quality standard.

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[edit] Quote

I found this good quote:

'The light does not change color as it usually does underneath a turbid surface. I cannot see clearly. Either the sun is going down quickly or my eyes are weak. I reached the hundred foot knot. My body doesn't feel weak by I keep panting. The damn rope doesn't hang straight. It slants off into yellow soup. It slants more and more. I'm anxious about that line, but I really feel wonderful. I have a queer feeling of the beatitude. I am drunk and carefree. My ears buzz and my mouth tastes bitter. The current staggers me as though I had to many drinks. "I forgotten Jacques and the people in the boats. My eyes are tired. I lower on down, trying to think about the bottom, but I can't. I'm going to sleep, but I can't fall asleep in such dizziness. There's a little light around me. I reach for the next knot and miss it. I reach again and tie my belt on it. Coming up is merry as a bubble. Liberated from weights I pull of the rope and bound. The drunken sensation vanishes. I'm sober and infuriated to have missed my goal. I pass Jacques and hurry on up. I am told I was down seven minutes.' Didi's belt was tied off two-hundred and ten feet down. This huisser attested it. No independent diver had been deeper. Yet Dumas's subjective impression was that he had been slightly under one hundred feet.
from The Silent World, by Jacques Cousteau

in this online book. (Presumably it could be found in the original book too). I think it'd be nice to include, as fair use text, but I'm not sure what Wikipedia's policy on that is. I'll leave it here for now. --Andrew 08:23, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Buggy

" neon at a fixed pressure has a narcotic effect equivalent to nitrogen at 0.23 times the pressure, so in principle it should be usable at four times the depth." This sounds to me like neon is more narcotic than nitrogen, if the intention correct it must be reformulated to make it usefull...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Togo (talk • contribs) 5 May 2006

No, the phrasing is correct. If something is 0.23 times as powerful as something, it is more than four times as weak, or a fourth as strong, which are equivalent statements. - BanyanTree 05:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps " neon at a given pressure has a narcotic effect equivalent to nitrogen at 0.23 times that pressure ..." would be acceptable to remove the possibility of misinterpretation? RexxS (talk) 17:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

I tried to add 2 references in an attempt to improve the section on Effects, but although I think I followed the guide at Wikipedia:Footnotes, some of the references now seem to have gone awry. Can anyone help me to regularise the footnotes? RexxS (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think your problem is that the first references really aren't footnotes, so the "reference list" tag doesn't pull them up. A simple solution (which I put up, as a suggestion) is to create a separate section for the sited (footnoted) references. See what you think. SBHarris 03:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I highly recommend using DAN as a source for this article, there are some things in it that aren't exactly correct, such as the part about being narced as a toxic syndrome. DarthGriz98 05:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
DAN wouldn't disagree about nitrogen at high pressure being toxic. Not only will it kill you, but it's killed many a diver going for the "air" depth limit below 400 ft. So many that the Guiness Book no longer carries that as a record, because everybody who's tried to beat the current record just below 400 fsw, has died. You might want to see Exley's Caverns Measureless to Man for a personal view of how they looked doing it: sitting on the bottom, totally anesthetized, until they ran out of air. With no way to help them because Ex's vision tunnelled in anytime he tried to get to them. And he was unusually resistant to nitrogen's effects. Being generally anesthetized at 300 or 400 ft is fatal, if you have nobody to help you. And often even if you do. SBHarris 06:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
References were not matched with PubMed ID's so I corrected those as well as changed the citations from web to journal. I will try to return to this but want to finish references on a couple of other articles first. This one will take a while.Gene Hobbs (talk) 03:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Changing a web cite to a journal is an improvement, I believe, as long as there is still a url available for quick checking, rather than having to find a copy of the journal. So the second reference you updated (Hamilton, Laliberte & Fowler) makes sense. However, the first reference (originally Rogers & Moller, 1989), which was in the context of coping vs adaptation, was provided to highlight its conclusion:

"These results are taken as evidence that there is little or no behavioral adaptation to nitrogen narcosis in response to brief, repetitive exposures to narcosis-inducing hyperbaric air."

To replace that reference with older research (Fowler, Ackles & Porlier, 1985), which is unable to form any conclusion about physiological tolerance, seems to miss the point of the original reference. I will therefore reinstate the Rogers & Moller reference. --RexxS (talk) 17:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, I missed adding that one back in but the reference you placed there and the abstract it links to do not match! That was my point in the first correction. I will fix that be the paper you link to the abstract of in PubMed.Gene Hobbs (talk) 21:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Reference is correct to be exactly what you wanted. I do have to point out my disagreement with the validity of "older research" being less valid. Key documents for this field are key because of the quality of the work. There have been several references in other articles to poor and sometimes bad research. I have tried hard NOT to replace those out of respect for this medium but at some point, this needs to be considered and addressed by the WikiProject SCUBA team. Just my 2c.Gene Hobbs (talk) 21:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
First of all, thanks to you, Gene for your skills in improving the references here. I'm not sure how I managed to dissociate the reference and the abstract that I thought it referred to, but I'm grateful for your diligence in fixing it. I fully accept that research being older does not automatically imply it is less valid, but there is a general point that later researchers are likely to be aware of the limitations of earlier research (in their own field). In this case, the earlier research tried to address four issues, but was unable to distinguish between learning and physiological tolerance; while the later (presumably aware of this) focussed on adaptation and concluded that no physical tolerance occurred over the space of 12 daily exposures. Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that future research might find some evidence over a longer time-period, but it's the clearest reported research that I'm aware of that has a direct bearing on the "myth" that divers can physically adapt to narcosis by repeated exposure to it. --RexxS (talk) 00:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marijuana

Better references on hyperbaric exposure and marijuana in animals are available. BEHAVIORAL EFFECTS OF THE INTERACTION OF MARIJUANA AND INCREASING PARTIAL PRESSURES OF N2 AND O2. Walsh and Burch. UHMS Abstract 1978. RRR 4320 and Reduction of the Behavioral Effects of Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol by Hyperbaric Pressure. Walsh and Burch. Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, v7 p111-116 1977. RRR 4226 Gene Hobbs (talk) 03:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The reference you provide would be useful in the context of the article statement "Nitrogen narcosis is known to be additive..." but not as a replacement for the NIDA reference used to verify the article statement "...which is more likely than alcohol to have effects which last into a day of abstinence from use". The NIDA reference specifically contains the statement "Moreover, research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off" with three references to verify it. --RexxS (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I was not comfortable enough making stronger comment than those provided, hence my placement of these articles here and not in the main article. Due to pressure reversal of anesthetic actions, I question the direct assumptions made in the article. It will be impossible to know for sure what happens and no answer will ever truly be known.Gene Hobbs (talk) 21:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
If you mean the assumption behind

Nitrogen narcosis is known to be additive to even minimal alcohol intoxication, and also to the effects of other drugs such as marijuana...

then we both know it's true for alcohol (e.g. effects of hyperbaric air in combination with ethyl alcohol and dextroamphetamine on serial choice-reaction time) and false for marijuana (as your reference clearly shows). However, given the "political" sensitivity of suggesting that diving reduces the effects of marijuana, I would prefer to see some discussion here before amending the latter part of that sentence. I know about WP:BOLD - what do others think? --RexxS (talk) 01:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)