Talk:Nirvana

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[edit] Random

The foreign word listing at the beginning is excessive and cumbersome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.70.230 (talk) 01:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schopenhauer

Nirvana corresponds to Schopenhauer's concept of denial of the will. It can be positively called deliverance or salvation, but is actually a relative, negative concept' meaning nothingness. In its application to the world as experienced by an observer, it is the absence or non-existence of birth, disease, old age, and death and their related suffering due to craving or attachment. This is in extreme contrast to the interpretation of Nirvana as a positive concept, that is, as a condition of happiness, joy, pleasure, eternal life, enlightenment, knowledge, and so forth. Lestrade 00:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Jorge Borges wrote an article entitled "The Dialogues of Ascetic and King," included in his book Selected Non-Fictions. In the article, he cites the writing of Heinrich Hackmann, who published Chinesische Philosophie in 1927. Hackmann narrated a statement by the brahmin Bodhidharma to China's Emperor Wu of Liang. "Good works, he said, can lead to good retributions, but never to nirvana, which is the absolute extinction of the will, not the consequence of an act." (Emphasis added) This is an example of the equivalence between Nirvana and Schopenhauer's Denial of the Will. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.82.9.79 (talk) 03:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

The word Nirvana is made up of tree words, Nir Va Djna and litteraly mean "withouth wrong thoughts", according to Buddha Dharma the changing of a wrong context into a skillfull context will automaticaly give rise to right view of the world as it is, ThathaGarba - "as it is with qualities", and permanent Buddha hood is reached.

Nirvana means "extinguished," as in a candle that is "not lit." It is a negative concept designating the absence of the fire of passion, will, and desire.Lestrade 23:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] Disambiguation

There should be one available for this article. e.g. Nirvana (band) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.146.138.55 (talk) 08:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree there should be a disambiguation page for the word; ask anyone what they think of first when they hear the word: the band, or the Buddhist "state of mind"? I think the majority who search Wikipedia for "Nirvana" are probably looking for the former. --Krakko 05:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page rename reverted

I have been asked to restore status quo on the page name pending discussion. Consensus should be reached before changing the name given the fact this is a major subject. 23skidoo (talk) 06:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

I had moved the Nirvana page to Nirvana (Buddhism) and redirected Nirvana to DAB page. It seems that insistence on restoring these changes are just to adhere “Some long established status quo” which was a status quo by default. Also the allegation by davidpatrick that “this issue was never discussed or no one had objected to it before hand” is not true, as evident on the discussion pages. Two people had raised this issue

…and one had had bothered to discuss it with them or reply so long as they did not act on it. When I acted on it, suddenly someone wakes up to defend “the long established statusquo.”

Let me provide reasons for why Nirvana be renamed as Nirvana (Buddhism) and redirected Nirvana to DAB page –

  • Nirvana is also a Jain concept. Probably Buddhists borrowed it from Jainas. Hence Nirvana should point out to “both” Jainsim and Buddhism concepts. But this article Nirvana is pre-dominantly a Buddhist concept so Nirvana (Buddhism) is an ideal name for it, just as there is a separate article for Nirvana (Jainism) and both are at par.
  • Many are looking for Band or music when they search for Nirvana and obviously get confused. For some one from India, Nirvana obviously is a philosophical concept. But think of the westerners and those, who are not familiar with Indian (and Asian) philosophical concepts. Hence Nirvana should be a DAB page. Let people be free to choose which meaning they want and not impose any meanings on anyone.

It should be noted wikipedia is not about “Status quo”. If that were the case, then, each and every edit would be reverted back. Even the featured articles are edited mercilessly. Also note that consensus can change – WP:CCC --Anish (talk) 09:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

1) This is not about maintaining the "long-established status quo" just for the sake of it. Of course that is not what Wikipedia is about. But with an article that for a long time has been considered a PRIMARY article - this is about respecting that there have been very good REASONS for the long-established status quo - and mulling those reasons carefully and seeking a consensus for a change in an article name rather than simply making that change unilaterally on one person's whim. It's also instructive to consider the chronology behind the sudden and unilaterally-decided change.

2) Let's deal with two separate issues. How and why this change happened - and whether there had been any SIGNIFICANT demand for it.

And then the merit of the change itself.

Let's follow the chronology of this.

A) First of all this issue was raised very briefly ONCE in November.

By a person who we discover logged on one time anonymously - made a single comment on this issue - didn't sign it - and has never ever appeared on Wikipedia again. Hardly a seasoned Wikipedian...

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/137.146.138.55

B) Then - Anish decides that he/she has a point of view - to which he/she is certainly entitled - that there is a SECONDARY philosophical concept that is ALSO called "Nirvana" - that is apparently different to the predominant understanding of Nirvana as a Buddhist concept. Fair enough.

Since the article that deals with the philosophical concept does not claim that it is exclusively a Buddhist concept - it might seem logical to most people that he/she should add additional material to the original article that conveys his/her understanding. That would actually be very helpful. It would expand everyone's understanding of the concept. And make clear that there are two separate traditions of Nirvana as a state of mind.

But - and he/she is of course entitled to do what he/she wants - instead decides that rather than add information about this secondary meaning of the philosophical concept into the article in which most people might think it belongs - he/she will instead create a brand new article all about this secondary meaning. Again - he/she is entitled to do that - even if others might feel that it would more properly start off as a section within the existing article - and THEN see if it should split off into two separate articles.

Having created an article that he/she names Nirvana (Jainism) on December 4th, Anish then UNILATERALLY decides without any discussion that - of the now TWO articles about Nirvana as a philosophical concept - that the main article that has been the PRIMARY article - should no longer be the primary article on his/her whim. (Even though it was NOT exclusively about Buddhism). No seeking of consensus among those who have been editing the main Nirvana article since September 2002.

Since he/she has created a new article in December 2007, the very existence of this brand new article (to which he/she happens to be the sole contributor) merits the unilateral renaming of what has stood as the PRIMARY article for over FIVE YEARS without any complaints - to Nirvana (Buddhism).

And THEN of course if that article now has a qualifier in its name... well!!!! it can no longer be a PRIMARY article. And if it is no longer a PRIMARY article - well gee whiz - I guess the word "Nirvana" now has to go to a disambiguation page so that this brand-new article (only one contributor) can have parity with the PRIMARY article that has been there for over five years. As though the new article is instantly of the same import and significance. And of course the PRIMARY article is now of LESS import. Hmmmmm....

In the light of all this - the argument put forward about needing to disambiguate from the band of the same name (there are actually two bands with that name) might seem to many people to be a rather convenient red herring. No one is really "confused". There is a very clear DAB notice at the top of the page. There are large numbers of fans of the Seattle band called Nirvana. Those fans who visit or edit on Wikipedia have long accepted that the original meaning of the word (which dates back over THREE THOUSAND YEARS) and which means something very important indeed to MILLIONS of people throughout the world is an important concept that has rightly stood as the PRIMARY article. With a very clear disambiguation text at the top of the page. Wikipedia is not a popularity contest. And it's not about people of just one age group or from one strata of pop culture. It's an encyclopedia.

That "Nirvana the philosophical concept" versus "Nirvana the band" argument is a red herring. And it's an issue that could easily be addressed if needs be. But I won't bother to do so here and now because this issue is clearly not about that. It's about whether there really should be a separate article about the Jainsim strand of Nirvana - or if it should be part of the article that has existed for five years.

If there is a full consensus that there really should be a separate article about the Jainsim strand of Nirvana - then so be it. And there should be a clear DAB at the top of the page. But that would NOT warrant taking away the PRIMARY article status that has been accorded to that article for over five years. Wikipedia exists to advance knowledge and understanding - not personal agendas. Davidpatrick (talk) 16:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Since our friend Davidpatrick has started with chronology of events, let me start with it. Since he/she prefers to use convention of he/she, while he/she could have used second person pronoun while replying to me, I will also follow his/her convention, rather than risk another long drawn lecture on it. I had avoided personal attacks and name calling, but he/she seems to have no scruples in using words like “whims” and “personal agenda” However, I am impressed by his/her capacity to speak for millions of lovers of Nirvana Band. In this chronology, he/she has conveniently missed out his/her own misdeeds.

  • There is not one but two people who raised this issue to him he/she never bothered to reply or atleast leave a word. Even my discussion would have met the same fate. However my edits raised his/her hackles.
  • The band issue itself was not the main issue (I am not interested in it), it was an additional point that I put forth for consideration. But he/she has devoted major part of his essay on it and then calls it a red herring……wow…talk of red herrings of red herrings !!!
  • I didn’t know there is a concept of primary and secondary articles on wiki.
  • In his/her hurry to establish his precious “long established status quo” he/she deleted the references of Jainism from Dab page also. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nirvana_%28disambiguation%29&diff=175763998&oldid=175726130
  • It is doubtful whether he/she is trying for consensus; as soon as his/her “agenda” was solved he/she removed the discussion tag for renaming the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nirvana&diff=177036053&oldid=177008208

As he/she harangues on whims and personal agendas of others, it is quite evident who is imposing his whims and personal agendas.

Since he/she has also tried to analyze my intentions, certain clarifications are needed. Quite frankly, I never thought of adding the Jainism concept in the “PRIMARY” article of Nirvana because: –

  • In renaming Nirvana as Nirvana (Buddhism) and having another article on Nirvana (Jainism), I was following the convention used in other Indian philosophical concepts. To quote a few examples :-
  • It is quite evident when someone reads the Nirvana article, it speaks from predominantly Buddhism view point. Even Dab page identifies it as a Buddhist concept; hence it was better to rename it as Nirvana (Buddhism) rather than separating it into two separate sections for Jainism and Buddhism. I though this will avoid any conflict with some editors who may have developed this article as a fully Buddhist concept.

Alas, how was I to know that these edits in good faith will be turned into a super exciting conspiracy to threaten the “long established status quo”(five years, I have been told), to make PRIMARY ARTICLE as secondary article and to reduce the import of the philosophical concept, to make Wiki as popularity contest ….and…. what not.

In the light of all this, I have following suggestion to make- In line with the Karma, Ahimsa, Dharma articles, Nirvana can remain as the general philosophical article (PRIMARY ?) with sections on Buddhism and Jainsim and if any on Hindusim. There can be separate articles like Nirvana (Buddhism) and Nirvana (Jainism) that explain the respective concepts in more detail. Comments are invited to establish consensus.--Anish (talk) 09:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


1) One uses the second person pronoun when writing to just one individual – as one does on someone’s talk page. When writing on the article’s talk page – one is writing to everyone who might read it. So it would be wrong to use the second person as though it was a personal correspondence.

2) I have refrained – and will continue to refrain - from personal attacks. When an article that has held primary article status (a recognized Wikipedia concept) has its title and status unilaterally changed without any warning, any discussion, any seeking of consensus, just moments after the same person has created another article that is the premise of the NEED for the change – one might be forgiven for describing it as a whim. However, if this unilateral move was pre-planned – I am happy to withdraw the word “whim” and describe the unilaterally executed change as pre-meditated.

3) Anish has freely written about his/her agenda in edit summaries, on this page and on my Talk Page. And should not be condemned for having one. Lots of people have an agenda. Anish’s agenda may well be a very valid one. Anish believes that the current article about Nirvana doesn’t do justice to the Jainism aspect of Nirvana – and has the agenda to change it. That is fine and valid. And it is valid to describe it as an agenda.

4) I don’t “speak for millions of lovers of Nirvana Band” – nor do I purport to. I simply conveyed the empirical observation that large numbers of people who like the band have edited the article about the band and have not had the temerity to advance the notion that the group they admire – though immensely popular – should have parity with “Nirvana” as the primary article for the word. I’m guessing that they agree that an article about an historically and spiritually important 3,000 year-old philosophical concept takes some precedence (both chronologically and encyclopedically) over a wonderful rock band that lasted for 6 years.

5) There were a grand total of two people who have written about this in the last few weeks. One was an anonymous editor who posted a single unsigned comment on Wikipedia on this topic in November, left and has never returned to Wikipedia. The second was an occasional editor who has never edited any pages to do with any of the meanings of Nirvana – whose primary edits are to his/her own Talk Page. (With a couple of edits about Kim Basinger and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles action figures‎.) The latter person had no comment on the Buddhism vs Jainism aspect but simply offered the observation that more people might be looking for a pop group than a philosophical concept. Which is why there has always been a very clear DAB notice at the top of the article. That has not resulted in fans of the rock band complaining that they couldn’t find the article about the band.

6) The raising of the rock band issue did appear to be a red herring. And it certainly confused the issue. If it is not an issue to Anish – then it should be left out of this discussion altogether so that it doesn’t cloud the real issue raised by Anish.

7) I accept that Anish didn’t know that there was a concept of Primary Articles. I only discovered the concept when there was a similar situation a while back. In my case, before acting, I took the time to research the Wikipedia guidelines about article naming protocols – which is advisable to do before making major changes.

8) There has been no wholesale deletion of references to Jainism from the DAB page. There were two overly-long descriptions of the two strands of Nirvana in the DAB notice – which as my edit summary expressed – I felt could be abbreviated to provide: “clearer wording for people unfamiliar with the intricate details of the concepts”

DAB notices are not the place to offer intricate details – but simply to disambiguate the words. Anish is welcome to change the descriptions but should adhere to Wikipedia recommendations about DAB notices that they should simply be very basic navigational guides – not summaries of the articles.

9) The tag for renaming the page had been placed there by ME – calling for it be renamed from “Nirvana (state)” BACK to plain simple “Nirvana” - and only because I had had some technical difficulty in reverting the changes made by Anish. When an Administrator restored the original title – this obviated the need for the tag that had been placed there by ME. So I simply removed the tag that I had placed there! And of course I recorded that in my Edit Summary: “("Move" proposal no longer needed as original article name was restored by an Admin.)“ How removing the tag that I personally had placed there – after the change I'd requested had been effected by an administrator - is relevant to anything defeats me!

10) Because we are told to “Assume Good Faith” – that is what I will do. I think that Anish is simply trying to ensue that a valid aspect of Nirvana is not overlooked. And I think that he/she is absolutely entitled to do that.

I think that Anish is wise in following the suggestion that I made earlier. Namely that if Anish thinks that the current article is too skewed towards Buddhism and does not give sufficient attention to Jainism – then that aspect SHOULD be added into the existing article. With clear headings to delineate the differences. I truly doubt that there would be any controversy about that – as long as Anish provides sources – which he/she has already done in the “Nirvana (Jainism)” article. The Nirvana article does not say that Nirvana is exclusively a Buddhist philosophy.

It may well be that ALL the information that is required can be incorporated into the one article.

Secondary articles to describe more complex aspects can certainly be created if necessary. Though the titles would probably be more specific than “Nirvana (Jainism)” eg – a secondary article might be titled “History of Nirvana in the Jainist tradition” or “Key principals in Jainism Nirvana”

11) Anyway – Anish concludes with the following:

In the light of all this, I have following suggestion to make- In line with the Karma, Ahimsa, Dharma articles, Nirvana can remain as the general philosophical article (PRIMARY ?) with sections on Buddhism and Jainsim and if any on Hindusim

That seems to accord with what I suggested above – namely:

Since the article that deals with the philosophical concept does not claim that it is exclusively a Buddhist concept - it might seem logical to most people that he/she should add additional material to the original article that conveys his/her understanding. That would actually be very helpful. It would expand everyone's understanding of the concept. And make clear that there are two separate traditions of Nirvana as a state of mind.

I salute Anish for endorsing my earlier suggestion. I endorse Anish’s endorsement of my suggestion. We now have consensus! Davidpatrick (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reconstruction-/addition of the article

In view of the above consensus, the article may the restructured in the following manner. The lead section to be suitably modified to show that it is a Buddhist as well as a Jainist concept.

  1. Nirvana in Buddhism
    1. Overview
    2. Nirvāṇa and saṃsāra
    3. Nirvāṇa in Buddhist commentaries
    4. Nirvāṇa in the MahāpariNirvāṇa Sūtra
    5. Paths to Nirvāṇa in the Pali canon
    6. Quotations
  2. Nirvana in Jainism
    1. Overview
    2. Description of to Nirvāṇa of Mahavira
  3. See also
  4. Notes
  5. External links

If there is a Hindu concept for to Nirvāṇa , one more section may be added. Comments are invited. --Anish (talk) 11:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)



[edit] ****Yikes!****

First of all, the article doesn't mention Nirvana's rol in Hinduism, or belong to a Project Hiduism. Two- (now, correct me if I'm wrong PLEASE!) the symbol shown for Project Jainism is FACE THE WRONG WAY; THAT IS THE NAZI VERSION OF THE SWASTIKA, NOT THE PEACE ONE!!!! (Right-Nazi, Left-Peace) I REALLY think this should be edited by the Project editor!!!! (And someone should insert a healthy amount of information about the Hindu Nirvana, especially since Buddhism comes from Hinduism.) I know that on the Wikipedia page for Swastika, it shows the Hindu symbol, not tilted, and the Nazi one, tilted, but I think this is only showing one way to tell the two apart. I'm really not sure, so please start a new category on my discussion page. I am open to new information :) (especially on MY religion....)

--Divya da animal lvr (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC) p.s. Nirvana- Nirvana is the final goal in Hinduism, but mostly Buddhism, and is the union between a person or people and the universe, and the release from reincarnation, another belief of Hindus and Buddhists. This was also seen as the final goal of the Eightfold Path, the “laws” of Buddhism. I dunno.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Divya da animal lvr (talk • contribs) 22:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pali

It is incorrect for English Wikipedia to give Pali words in nagari script as if that were the script for Pali. It's not; it's one of several, & by no means the commonest. Pali words should be given in our alphabet, in accordance with standard practice in English-language publications. Nagari is perfectly OK in Hindi Wikipedia of course. Peter jackson (talk) 11:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretation

Much of the article seems to be unsourced interpretations of Buddhist ideas. there seems to be no basis for supposing that Buddhists would agree on them. Peter jackson (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)