Talk:Niphad
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Guys, I found a great source[1]; I will be busy for the next little while so if someone wants to get started, this source addresses a lot of the issues I have brought up on this talk page.
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[edit] Cleanup tag
I think the cleanup tag can now be removed from this article (pending selection and enforcement of a writing/spelling style—see below). But I'd prefer for someone else to do it, rather than me rubber-stamping my own work. EsdnePyaJ 04:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] (Minor) Major Rewrite just completed—Facts In Need Of Checking
It recently dawned on me that most of the article was taken verbatim out of the Gazetteer. This raised copyright and accuracy issues (see below), and I decided the best course of action was to rewrite the entire article, remove all dated or dubious information, and reword and reorganize the rest. A reorganization was in order anyway, since the article as written did not make clear when it referred to the town and when the taluka.
To do this in the absence of sources or real knowledge of Niphad, I had to resort to some dodgy tactics. The big one is stating as fact things that are probably true and that are hinted at by the Gazetteer (or existing article text). Here's a list—if you have a source for one of these claims please add it to the reference list in the article and leave a note here:
- the taluka's topography is fairly level with hardly even any hills
- the town lies on no highway or major road
- its villages' facilities are improving
- the town remains the local transportation hub
- the town remains the local communication hub
- the town remains the local seat of government
- the town remains the local seat of law enforcement
- the town remains the local center for medical care
- the town remains the local center for veterinary care
- the town remains the local center for trade [I mean buying supplies, selling produce, etc.—would welcome a better word for this if you have one, by the way]
- the town remains the local center for banking
- there is one or more State Bank of India branch
- there is one or more land development bank branch [and what is its formal name, by the way?]
- the town remains the local center for education
- the town offers education through high school but not beyond
- Niphad Town is home to a number of Hindu temples dedicated to various deities
- Niphad Town is home to a (single) dargah
- Niphad Town is home to (only) a few mosques
- A traditional fair in honour of Khandoba is held on Magha Shuddha Paurnima and attracted over 2,000 participants annually in the time of the 1975 Gazetteer
- There is another traditional Khandoba fair in Chandori in the taluka
- The taluka's economy is based on farming
- Sugarcane is one of the taluka's most important agricultural products
- the taluka is home to its own cooperative sugar factory
- called the Niphad Sahakari Sakhar Karkhana
- onions, grapes, vegetables, wheat, bajra, jovar, tur, and gram are major crops of the taluka
- the taluka has no other major crops
- by the way, which crops are produced for sale and which ones for consumption?
- the Vadali river bandhara is not in Niphad taluka but is important for Niphad taluka's irrigation
- by the way, where is the bandhara?
- and is there any harm in just calling it a dam? or is the word bandhara commonly used in India while speaking English? this is an honest question, I really don't know, if it is commonly used as an English word then we can continue to call it a bandhara
- Niphad taluka has over a hundred irrigation wells
- Ranade was born in Niphad taluka, not Niphad town
- anyone know what village it was, if it was not Niphad town after all
list created EsdnePyaJ 07:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I also removed a number of claims made in the Gazetteer, but they or updated versions of them can be replaced if reliable sources can be produced. I have placed 1975. in bold next to nearly every entry in this list; this signifies that the main reason for removing the information was that it seemed very likely to be out of date.
- 1971 town population: 9,274
- Can we just put in 2001 census information?
- location approximately 40 kilometres (20 miles) northeast of Nashik
- Can we settle on a distance? Please specify if this is the distance between Niphad and Nashik's town centers or whatever it is.
- 1975. The agricultural produce is marketed through the recently established sub-market yard.
- What is a sub-market yard, anyway? I'm sure it's not recent, unless there's a new one.
- 1975. The medical needs of the populace are met
- 1975. by a civil dispensary
- 1975. with attached maternity ward
- 1975. and family planning center,
- 1975. as well as a few private medical practitioners.
- 1975. There are also a veterinary dispensary
- 1975. and a leprosy eradication centre which has been doing good work in this direction.
- 1975. It has two high schools,
- 1975. one primary school,
- 1975. and an Urdu school.
- 1975. Besides the usual revenue [offices]
- 1975. and police offices,
- 1975. the town has a post [office]
- 1975. and telegraph office
- 1975. panchayat samiti
- 1975. civil court etc.
- 1975. There is also a rest-house.
- 1975. Though the people continue to depend on well water, they will soon have tap water when the water-works scheme, already approved by the Government, is implemented.
- 1975. Weekly bazaar is held on Thursdays.
list created by EsdnePyaJ 07:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Other things to do
- One or two photos would spice up the article.
- I want to implement the in-article footnoting system so every claim can be traced back to a source at the bottom. We can hide these later, but for now, the article needs very clear and unmistakable citations.
- Give complete names for every village.
- Mine out the Gazetteer for all useful information, including information on the villages. Most of the villages will not get independent articles for a long time, if ever; it would be appropriate to include information on them in this taluka article rather than building 110 tiny stubs.
- Use the taluka infobox when it becomes available.
- Incorporate lots of 2001 census data, including (if available):
- literacy rates
- religious demographics
- Incorporate information from the 1887 Gazetteer! It is in the public domain and probably very hard to come by but I bet someone has a copy. It is badly out of date and probably biased by our standards, so I would not want to use it word for word (though this would be legal), but it could provide a valuable historical perspective.
- Draw on Marathi-, Hindi-, and other non-English-language sources. I believe old books exist and there are probably at least some newsletters or something. Also the Nashik newspapers might have good tidbits in their archives.
- Consistently adopt Indian English vocabulary and writing style, after agreeing on what they are.
list created by EsdnePyaJ 07:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Map
"Infobox Indian urban area" seems to require a decimalized degree notation for geographical coordinates, rather than the "degrees, minutes, seconds" previously used in the article (which I personally also prefer). Decimal notation is needed to place the "red dot" labeled "Niphad" at the correct spot on the map. I substituted in Falling Rain's decimal coordinates for Niphad, though they differed from the coordinates previously given in the article (whose source I do not know). I kept the old coordinates and two decimal interpretations in a comment so it should not be hard to switch back if needed.
By the way, it was my understanding that seconds can take the values 0-59, but both the old and new coordinates refer to 60".
EsdnePyaJ 13:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
P. S.: Here's the infobox source, including the comment (but it's been modified and needs to be reposted on this talk page):
{{Infobox Indian urban area |
native_name= निफाड (Niphad)|
locator_position=right|
latd = 19°58'60|longd=73°47'60|
<!--
What do you mean, 60" (in both the latitude and longitude coordinates)?
It seems to me the correct coordinates should be
either 19°58'00"/73°47'00" or 19°59'00"/73°48'00", depending on what 60"
is trying to mean.
It seems to me that the "Indian urban area" infobox requires the use of decimal
coordinates to properly place the red dot on the map. To achieve this, replace
the preceding line with:
latd = 19.97|longd=73.78|
or else
latd = 19.98|longd=73.80|
depending on which is correct, or better yet find out the most accurate decimal coordinates
that can be achieved and use those. I personally don't like to mix degrees with
decimalization, but this seems to be the Wikipedia style. If you know how to do it while
keeping the minutes and seconds notation, please, be my guest.
-->
state_name=Maharashtra |
district=[[Nashik district|Nashik]] |
leader_title= ? |
leader_name= ? |
altitude=569|
population_as_of = 1971 |
population_total = 9,274 |
population_density = ? |
area_magnitude=1 E? |
area_total=1053 |
area_telephone= 0253 |
postal_code= 422 0xx |
vehicle_code_range= MH 15 |
footnotes = |
}}
[edit] Gazetteer Issues
[edit] Copyright
The material is under copyright. This may not pose a problem. Here is the copyright notice listed on the Gazetteer page that is the source of most of the article text:
© Copyright 2000. All rights reserved with : Executive Editor and Secretary, Gazetteers Department, Government of Maharashtra.
Here are the terms of use of the Maharashtra government website, which hosts the Gazetteer:
T E R M S O F U S E Content Disclaimer Though all the efforts have been made to keep the content on this website accurate and up-to-date, the same should not constructed as a statement of law or used for any legal purpose. All queries regarding the content of this website may be directed to Directorate of Information Technology (the postal as well as email address of the concerned department). Copyright Material featured on this site may be reproduced free of charge in any format or media without requiring specific permission. This is subject to the material being reproduced accurately and not being used in a derogatory manner or in a misleading context. Where the material is being published or issued to others, the source must be prominently acknowledge. However, the permission to reproduce this material does not extend to any material on this site which is identified as being the copyright of the third party. Authorisation to reproduce such material be obtained from the copyright holders concerned. Private Statement As a general rule, this site does not collect Personal Information about you when you visit the site. You can generally visit the site without revealing Personal Information, unless you choose to provide such information. Any personal information collected shall be used only for the stated purpose and shall NOT be shared with any other department/ organization (public/private). This site may contain links to non-Government sites whose data protection and privacy practices may differ from ours. We are not responsible for the content and privacy practices of these other websites and encourage you to consult the privacy notice of those site.
Now my understanding is that the Gazetteers Dept. is not a "third party" but is part of the Government of Maharashtra and that therefore free reproduction is permitted. I am concerned, though, about the requirement that the material not be used "in a derogatory manner or misleading context". This may conflict with the GFDL, under which Wikipedia is distributed. If so we would need to remove the text, or get the Government of Maharashtra to agree to permit the GFDLing of the text, which something tells me is not something to be too hopeful or patient for. Also, if the Gazetteers Dept. is a "third party" then we need to get permission from them.
[edit] Obsolescence
The fact that the text has been pulled directly from the Gazetteer means that it is more than 30 years out of date. So does Niphad have tap water now? Etc.? The text is badly in need of being brought up to date.
[edit] Dearth of other sources
A general problem with relying on the Gazetteer, aside from this copyright stuff, is its age, which makes much of its statements wrong or at least unreliable. Wikipedia's ban on original research reliable, stable (i. e.: printed) source for any claim we make. The trouble is that the Gazetteer may be the only source for a lot of the information on Niphad that exists in book form. Well, Wikipedia does tend to be lenient about not having a source for a simple claim like whether a town has tap water. But are there newspapers or other current sources that we could cite if needed? Here are some that I think must exist that come to mind:
- the 2001 census—probably the single best source for current information
- Nashik newspapers
- the 1887 Gazetteer, just for reference, if someone can find a copy. Note, it is in the public domain under India's 60-year Government copyring so it would be legal to scan and webpost somewhere, then everyone could look at it.
- Marathi and Hindi books
- Marathi and Hindi documents like newsletters
EsdnePyaJ 02:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC), last section revised 12:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Indian English terms
I tried to help segment and organize the information and add links to other articles, particularly where terminology is used that is commonly understood in India and but not everywhere else (gram, State Bank, etc.). (By the way, can someone do this for "land mortgage bank"?—I actually don't know the formal name, if any. Also jovar and bandhara. Also, tur, which is a disambiguation page, doesn't tell you what tur actually means as used in this article—could somebody edit that page and add it in?) EsdnePyaJ 04:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Indian English style
My main question is: Is there an Indian English manual of style we can resort to for this page? Indian writers often use a style different from that used by American or British writers—definite and indefinite articles used or omitted at different times, for example—but I am not sure if this is standard (i. e.: used consistently by Indian newspapers, etc.) or merely a sort of casual, habitual style. (Incidentally, the word "centre" is spelt two different ways in the article, but I'm in no position to fix it really—for all I know one of them is a proper name that just isn't capitalized.) EsdnePyaJ 04:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there seems to be no official policy, I'm just going to start a list of conventions I have tried to adhere to in this article. You are welcome to a) modify and b) ignore this since it's just coming from me.
- At every mention of "Niphad" in the article, it must be clear whether the town or taluka is being referred to.
- Where reasonable, just use "the town" or "the taluka" without even using the name "Niphad".
- When necessary, use "Niphad Town" or "Niphad Taluka".
- Do not use "Niphad town" or "Niphad taluka". I just think they look like someone didn't spend time on the article.
- On the other hand, I don't like how "Niphad Town" and "Niphad Taluka" look, since I don't think these expressions are actually used as proper names by anyone.
- If there are good, unambiguous proper names that can be used, please substitute them into the article. So perhaps the proper name of the taluka is "Niphad Taluka", then at the top of the article we could state the convention that in this article "Niphad" used alone refers to the town and the taluka is always referred to by the full name "Niphad Taluka". But I can only speculate about this type of thing.
- So I think for now the best thing is to try to use unambiguous constructions such as the town of Niphad, Niphad the town, or the taluka of Niphad. (But Niphad the taluka sounds a little strange to me so I'm going to deprecate it for now.)
- Proper names of things should be given in Marathi (and parenthetically translated into English) unless there is a good reason.
- Common words should be given in:
- standard international English if the English words are commonly understood within Maharashtra. So my hunch is that bandhara should be switched to "dam".
- a local word if it is commonly used by people in Maharashtra while speaking English and if the standard word is not commonly understood in Maharashtra. So for instance I doubt anyone anywhere uses the English name pearl millet and I would prefer continuing to call it bajra, using a piped link so that someone can just hover their mouse over the term and see the standard English name (in browsers that support this).
- Modern transliterations into Roman characters should be used. I wouldn't object to full diacritical annotation, if someone wants to do it.
[edit] Distance to Nashik question
- The article gave three different distances from Niphad to Nashik—one in the intro, one under "Gazette" (a fairly useless heading in my opinion, but whatever, I'm not going to change it unilaterally), and that figure's Imperial-unit equivalent, which did not exactly agree with that figure or the previous one. So the choices were 45 km, 40 km, and 20 miles, respectively. So I chose the one in the middle and gave it a more exact equivalent in miles—I said 24 miles. However, I really have no idea, and maybe 40 km was just an approximation, in which case 20 miles is actually a more appropriate equivalent. Anyway, whoever it is that eventually fixes this, please specify what distance is being referred to—the distance between the two talukas, or the two towns, or the two town centers, or what? Thanks! EsdnePyaJ 04:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
