Talk:Ninjaken

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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 February 2007. The result of the discussion was keep, possibly merge.

This article was nominated for deletion on April 18, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

This whole page is a load of garbage with a bunch of japanese words in it that make it sound credible. The author(s) clearly know nothing about iai, or do they know anything about bushido. Eliminate this page entirely until true references are available in a wide range, or return this garbage to a stub.

Well, this one was a mess. I've done what I can, but more work definately needs to be done. For example, what is the "Koto period"? Also, the words "in Japan" should probably be added to that first sentence. It doesn't make sense as is. From China to where? ~Resister 10:10, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 False Information 2 Terminology 3 More False Information 4 Source

[edit] False Information

No credible sources are listed, no historical references other than a supposed connection with a ryu.

Not only are there NO historical references supporting the idea, the article mispelled a few Japanese words that are very common in kenjutsu.

• Instead of biting the newbies, and inserting insults into what was an actual article on the subject, perhaps you could rewrite the article with real facts and references? - Kenwarren 02:25, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
• That looks much, much better! I'm not a martial artist, so I might look for some references (online or printed) to learn a bit more. Thanks! - Kenwarren

Kenwarren you do not have any clue about this art. Why don't you go to Tokyo University and look up the swords section? Better yet watch the Discovery Channels documentary about ninjitsu. Go find that grandmaster in Ninjitsu in Japan. Masssiveego

• Why don't YOU present the evidence supporting the existence of this fictional weapon here in Wikipedia? What can be learned by going to Tokyo University? What documentary? Why should anyone use a television documentary as a primary source of research when studying Japanese swords? What grandmaster of Ninjitsu (sic)? Well I agree this article is marginally better than its duplicate (see Ninjato), which is close of being patent nonsense in my opinion.

[edit] Terminology

It has already been mentioned that this article duplicates ninjato, unless we are talking about two different weapons here. My understanding is that the terms tō (刀) and ken (剣) refer to a one-edged sword and a two-edged sword respectively. The ninja sword is usually depicted as one edged, so it should be a 刀. It is true that it is supposed to be straight, which is abnormal for a one-edged sword, but (again, as I understand it) that is not the criterion used to determine which word is used. Am I wrong? Furthermore, this article as it stands is more than a little annoying in that it immediately starts out with a refutation of the claims that such a sword existed, without even mentioning the claims to begin with. It makes much more sense to me to present the basic information first, and then trash it. --Iustinus/128.135.96.203 18:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think you're pretty much right. 剣 is also the kanji used in general sword-related subjects, like kendo [剣道] and kenjutsu [剣術]. 刀 is also the kanji for "katana" (kun-yomi), and in modern usage generally refers to a "Traditional Japanese-style sword" as opposed to earlier designs copied from China or other designs copied from the West at various times (these and any foreign swords would be 剣、which is alternately read ken or tsurugi).

Of course, the Japanese wikipedia and most other sources refer to this as a Shinobigatana, 忍刀 ("stealth katana", more or less), and further states that because it was such an inferior weapon versus a proper sword, current theory is that it was mainly a symbolic icon for radical anti-Tokugawa groups. Japanese wikipedia entry at: [[1]]--220.29.92.4 19:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all keep in mind that I wrote the comment you are replying to two years ago (almost exactly).

Second of all, ahah! That explains why the art of using nihontō is called 剣道 and not *刀道. I was under the impression, though, that in Japanese sometimes even forreign sabres were referred to as katana. Shinobigatana is of course the kun-yomi equivalent of ninjatō. Er... well, at least of nintō ;)

As for the anti-Tokugawa groups, that is excellent. But I dont' really speak Japanese. Perhaps you could import some of it for us? --Iustinus 22:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I can translate some of it, but I may not have a chance to do it right away. (I work as a translator all week long, so I've developed an aversion to doing it on the weekend :) ) "nintou" does appear in the Edict dictionary, but that's an open-source compilation mainly developed by westerners, and so I've found that many of the definitions and so forth can be pretty far off the mark. The scant few japanese references I saw used the kun-yomi, but of course most just had the kanji itself with no reading.

You're also right that foreign swords can be called katana; the rules don't seem to be particularly strict, especially in conversational use. I would find it curious if the official term for this sword used "ken", though. If I can remember, I'll try and ask one of my (Japanese) co-workers tomorrow, but I'm not sure they're going to know a whole lot about ninja armament ;)--220.29.92.4 11:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand. I certainly can't do everythign on wikipedia I'd like to, due to real world responsibilities. I was not seriously suggesting that nintou was a real word, just using it to flippantly point out the relationship between shinobigatana and ninjatou.

As for ninjaken, see Svartalf's comment at Talk:Ninjatō#Ninjaken, which seems to give a logical explanation. --Iustinus 17:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing: shouldn't the title be either Ninjaken, Ninja-ken or at the very least Ninja ken with a lowercase k? As the title stands now, it looks like the article should be about some guy named Ken who happens to be a ninja. --Idem/128.135.96.203 19:41, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Since it's been almost a year now, and no one has addressed these issues, I have decided to be bold, perhaps even rash, by renaming the page and suggesting the merger. If you disagree, state your arguments in one of the talk pages. --Iustinus 18:16, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More False Information

The part about putting shortswords in long scabbards may be true. What's definetly not true is the stated reason for doing so. What it has at the moment is utter tripe about the supid old Ninja vs Samurai thing. It says it's to hide being a Ninja so the Samurai won't execute them. This is wrong for two reasons: Firstly, the Ninja were Samurai from some areas. Secondly, the real reason is subterfuge and a faster iaijutsu strike. And do we really suppose only Ninja to have employed that trick. (Sun Tzu in the Art of War disscusses and encorages such tactics. In broader terms, of course.)

I'm eding out the BS. I'll put in the quicker draw, etc. instead. But I'm not sure this page deserves to live. Redirect to Ninjato, I'd say.

Even if left, it needs a total purge, just about. And in the mean time it need to be tagged as missing sources, utter tripe, etc. Only I'm not sure how to do that. Do you just add it to the catagory?

The Japanese article is under "Shinobi-gatana", so it should probably be under that or "Ninjatō". I've never even heard of "Ninjaken". I'll probably move it unless someone says otherwise. Evan1975 22:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source

before anyone makes further claims source your statements, otherwise there is no reason to object the inclusion of Jedi lightsabers into the discussion. Wandalstouring 19:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)