User talk:NikoSilver/Archive 5

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Contents 1 Η Τουρκική μειονότητα 2 New ref notes 3 Τι λέει η Βριτάννικα για τη Μακεδονία; 4 Παπαχελάς 5 Goebbels , moi? 6 Minorities? 7 Map 8 Ti svisane oi skopianoi? 9 Macedonia article 10 Slavic language (Greece) 11 Almost finished 12 Nikola Karev 13 Your Signature 14 Arvanites 15 Footnotes 16 Kalogerakis 17 POLL 18 In case, you wish

Η Τουρκική μειονότητα

Ξέρεις τι μου κάνει εντύπωση (από τα στατιστικά). Η Τουρκική μειονότητα στη Θράκη είναι πάρα πολύ λιγότεροι στον Νομό Έβρου από όσο στον Ροδόπης ή Ξάνθης. Λες να είναι τυχαίο; Δεν έχω πάει ποτέ στον Έβρο, αλλά έχω ακούσει ότι είναι μέρος ύψιστης ασφάλειας, ειδικά κοντά στα Ελληνοτουρκικά σύνορα - λες αυτό να έχει κάποια σχέση; --Telex 19:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Νομίζω οτι η απάντηση που γνωρίζω (χίαρσεϋ) για το θεμα δεν είναι και τοσο προ-Ελληνική. Μου είχαν πεί οτι τους μετέφεραν πιο μέσα για τον κίνδυνο της διάσπασης...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 19:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Les na klisun pote to Turkiko proxenio stin Komotini? Des ke il tah. --Telex 19:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Den exw idea (oute kan h3era oti htan ekei). Emeis, 8a meteferoume pote to patriarxeio apo thn polh sthn A8hna h' sto Agio Oros? H' 8a perimenoume mexri kapoios apo tous diadoxous tou Bar8olomaiou na einai pragmati Tourkos (ektos apo poliths kai e8nikothtos)? H' mhpws 8a 3anaparoume thn polh kai den to 3erw gia na etoimasw to psarotoufeko?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 19:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Min anisihis. An i Turkia bi stin EE, o Evropaikos nomos tin ipohreoni na min kani diakrisis me vasi tin ipiikotita (afto ishi ya krati ke ya idiotes - des auto). Me afti ti loyiki, yinete o epomenos Patriarhis na ine Ellinas, Bulgaros, Skopianos (an bun afti), Rumanos, klp. --Telex 20:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ma gi'ayto akribws kai anhsyxw... Oi pappes sto parel8on meteferan 3-4 fores to patriarxeio tous (panta sto pio hsyxo meros). Emeis to exoume sto pio afilo3eno. Mhn 3exnas oti apo oles tis meionothtes, h monh pou den sou egrapsa sto e-mail x8es htan h mousoulmanikh... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 20:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Des auto. Den perno sovara afta pu lei autos (afu mallon ehi athellinikes tasis), alla les na ehi dikio edo? --Telex 20:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ayto pou den katalabainei aytos o tragopapas, einai oti an h Ellhnor8odo3h einai... paranomh, tote:

• Aytos einai arxi-paranomos, afou apespas8h apo paranomous kai einai or8odo3os ypo tous ka8olikous (matzourana sto katwfli na se dagkwna sto sberko, dhladh)
• 300 ek pistoi kai 14 (15) mhtropolites einai malakes?
• Afou o Patriarxhs einai "prwtos meta3y iswn" giati den ton anatrepei aytos pou einai kai magkas?
• O Karolos arnh8hke to stemma gia na aspastei th 8rhskeia tou patera tou (or8odo3os) kai erxetai 3-4 fores to xrono sto Agio Oros (malakas ki aytos?)
• H ekklhsia apokaleitai Ellhnor8odo3h apo olous. Diabase Greek Orthodox Church (dab) gia na deis ti perilambanei...

Kai meis edw ka8arizoume karyofilia...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 20:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

New ref notes

Actually I really like the new ref notes, and will be using them as soon as they fix the outstanding bug. - FrancisTyers 22:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Does that actually work? Because I thought that the text ref had to come before the ref ref for it to work... Feel free to try it out :) - FrancisTyers 23:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, doesn't seem to be working here. Its fine if you have short references, but unfortunately those happen less rather than more. I find it impossible to read fluidly with the footnotes in the text. - FrancisTyers 23:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I tend to read the footnotes as I am going along, and also the bibliography entries if they seem interesting enough, e.g. I want to follow them up. Part of the problem the current system has is that it doesn't separate footnotes from bibliographic entries. I could cope with footnotes inlined, but definately not bibliographic entries. - FrancisTyers 23:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Τι λέει η Βριτάννικα για τη Μακεδονία;

Πριν λίγο έψαχνα το διαδίκτυο, και δες τι βρήκα. Ένα ενδιαφέρον άρθρο της Βριτάννικα [1]. Για διάβασε το, και πες μου τη γνώμη σου (ειδικά την πρώτη παράγραφο). --Telex 22:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Και τη δεύτερη. --Telex 22:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Όλες τις εχω διαβάσει. Το ίδιο άρθρο έχουν και για τους μη εγγεγραμμένους χρήστες (μου φάγανε 5 ευρώ τσάμπα). Έχω το αρχείο στο γραφείο. θα στο στείλω αύριο.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 22:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Αλήθεια; Εγώ όταν θέλω να διαβάσω άρθρο της Βριτάννικα, πάω στη Δημοτική Βιβλιοθήκη. Μπορείς να χρησιμοποιήσεις υπολογιστές με πρόσβαση στο διαδίκτυο και πρόσβαση στην ΕΒ. Πες μου, γιατί δεν έχουμε γράψει στο άρθρο για την ΧΜΚ, τους αρχαίους Μακεδόνες και τους Σλαβομακεδόνες ότι: ... this kingdom [Macedon] seems to have been largely Greek-speaking, with Thracian and Illyrian admixtures. και ότι ... Macedonia's Greek ethnic composition was overturned by the invasion of Slavic peoples into the Balkans in the 6th and 7th centuries AD... --Telex 22:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ειχα προσπαθήσει. Μιλα με το Λουκά. Έγινε κάποια στιγμή ολόκληρη φασαρία, διότι ο πμα/σεπτ επέμενε οτι είναι πολυ αξιόπιστη η τρίτη οψιόν (ανεξάρτητη τελείως γλώσσα). Να το επαναφέρουμε...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 22:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Re 'seis min ksodeuete lefta stin Britannica, tin exo ston ypologisti mou. To exo sta yp'opsi mou auto to arthro kai skopeuo na to xrisimopoihso otan tha kano cleanup sto 'arxaioi makedones'. Miskin 23:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Pros to paron mas ekane cleanup ekeinos ola ta keimena pou eixan graftei ekei... (deite istoria).  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 23:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Τα κανονίζω στους αρχαίους Μακεδόνες. Είσαι σύμφωνος με τη μετονομασία του 'greek macedonian' σε 'macedonians (greek)'? Ο Τέλεξ και ο Εκτοριανός συμφώνησαν. Νομίζω πως μας παρέχει πολλά πλεονεκτήματα, οπώς π.χ. την ένταξη των Ελληνομακεδόνων κάθε εποχής. Έτσι θα κλείσουν τα στόματα πολλών ανθελλήνων. Miskin 17:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Kanonistike. Mia apo autes tis meres tha kano wiki-holiday. An yparksei kati simantiko afiste mou minima sti wikipedia kai steite mou email. Miskin 02:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Παπαχελάς

Είδα που ανέφερες μια εκπομπή του Παπαχελά που έπαιρνε συνεντεύξεις από βόρειους γείτονες. Ήταν στους Φάκελους ή άσχετο; Κι αν ναι μήπως θυμάσαι πότε περίπου προβλήθηκε;--   Avg    21:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Nai Fakelloi. Persy propersy den 8ymamai pote... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 21:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Some help from Hector:)...Για την ακρίβεια 16-11-2004 (ο τίτλος του θέματος ήταν:'Η Σκοτεινή Πλευρά των Διαπραγματεύσεων για τα Σκόπια'.[2], αρχείο, σελίδα 7. --Hectorian 03:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Mprabo Ektora! NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 08:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Δεν πείθει ο Σαμαράς, έπρεπε οι Σκοπιανοί να τον είχαν παρασημοφορήσει αυτόν το μπέμπη - όπως και τον Ανδρέα Παπανδρέου.

• Κατά τα άλλα, στην ΕΕ σύνοδο κορυφής της Λισσαβόνας (Ιούνιο 1992), νωμίσαμε ότι η Ελλάδα κέρδισε την παρτίδα. Η γειτόνισσα Γιουγκοσλαβία να καίγεται, αλλά βλέπετε φίλοι μου, ερχόταν το καλοκαιράκι και όλο το υπουργείο ήθελε να πάει στην διακοπές του. Αλλά να που ξαφνικά o ΟΗΕ προσκαλεί όλον τον κόσμο στην Νέα Υόρκη για το Μακεδονικό. Η Ελλάδα φτάνει με την ομάδα του και εκεί πάνω στο τραπέζι τον διαπραγματεύσεων τον ρωτάνε ποιες είναι οι προτάσεις του. Δεν είχε προετοιμάσει απολύτως τίποτα. Οπότε καλεί το Ευάγγελο Κοφό να γράψει γράψει μέσα σε 2 λεπτά κάτι ακραίο, στο πι-και-φι. Ο Κοφός δεν ήχε άλλη επιλογή από το να ακολουθήσει τα αφεντικά. Από τότε… το αποτέλεσμα το βλέπουμε και εδώ στο ουικιπαίδια. Politis 12:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Symfwnw, kai parepiptontws symfwnw kai me thn prohgoumenh version... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 15:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Goebbels , moi?

5 February 2005: [3], [4]. --FlavrSavr 08:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know. --FlavrSavr 08:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I have already retracted my comments. It was a difficult decision anyway, considering the provocative content, especially according to your perspective. You have even been removed entirely from User:NikoSilver/List of POV edits by Slavomacedonians. I would be glad if you created a User:FlavrSavr/List of POV edits by Greeks, to counter-balance this. It would help all of us behave better. It is the moderate people from both sides that will produce a solution for this fucking naming issue which annoys both of us. Let's keep the extremists away, where they belong, and we will have a better chance for it. I hope you agree...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 10:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. However, I don't find it necessary to counterbalance your page - all ethnicities have POVs and are biased when it comes to sensitive questions: I really don't see a point in doing a list of all the biased things that they've said. Are we biased? Yes, we are. Who's more biased? I don't think it would be possible for someone neutral to objectively determine that, and even if he did that, what would be the use of that? People act, or are supposed to act as individuals, being the same nationality with Makedonec, doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with him, nor that he's representative of the mainstream view in RoM. Would you like to see a list of your personal POV edits, as if someone was trying to sue you (sue where?). I doubt that anybody would sincerely want that. --FlavrSavr 10:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Consider it an amusing selection of bullshit. There ARE Greek POV edits here (possibly by me too). Just make the list, it doesn't hurt and who cares if you include something that shouldn't be there. At least the other side will understand what you mostly object to! It is educating. Also see my comment in the Wikipedia:Macedonian Wikipedians' notice board to understand where I come from (metaphorically -as in what my views are-, and literally)... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 11:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Minorities?

What is your opinion on this. I kind of agree with it - it saves us from having their politicians' claims (230,000) on Greece. BTW did you get that e-mail I sent you? --Telex 10:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Anything that brings the tones down, finds me agreeable. I just logged-on.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 10:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Map

OK - what do you think of this? --Telex 13:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice! Only if, you could possibly stick to the self-identifying names... eg. Vlach, Arvanitic etc NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 14:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

OK - clear your cache. I thought it'd be better to go by language family, because if we went by self-identification, then we'd have to worry about where is "Macedonian" spoken, where is Bulgarian spoken, where is Slavic spoken etc. I think it'd be original research for me to just make it up. Must best to just copy the source. --Telex 14:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

How about Arvanitic language too?

The languages are as follows:

• Arvanitic (Albanian)
• Bulgarian (Slavic)
• Slavic (Slavic)
• "Macedonian" (Slavic)
• Aromanian (Romance)
• Megleno-Romanian (Romance)
• Turkish (Turkic)

There is no "Arvanitic" Indo-European branch. As much as there is a Pontic branch. --Telex 14:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good, I think it probably makes sense (with such a low res map) to go for language families as opposed to languages. Of course it also avoids the thorny issue of separating out the three/four Slavics. If necessary, more localised maps can be made for this. How about adding Roma? Or aren't there places with sufficient population to warrant that? Basically is it too spread out ? The only downside I can see is if the "families" are mistaken for "languages" as "Albanian" and "Slavic" are also the names of languages. And presumably a note that says "map shows spread and does not indicate relative frequency" will be necessary :) - FrancisTyers 14:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

A coloured area indicates that one person in every thousand knows someone who can speak a minority language there. --Telex 14:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant: have you heard of the theory that between any two people on Earth there are maximum four people? ie (the one knows someone, who knows someone else, who knows someone else, who knows someone else, who knows the other!)  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 14:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I must say though, that map looks silly. Nik, you live in a "red" area; how many Arvanites do you know there? As many Arvanites as there are there, that's the percentage of how many Bulgarians/Macedonians are in the yellow zone and Aromanians in the blue. --Telex 14:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've bought land from 7 of them near Spata (I wouldn't know if they speak it though). I know a realter and a I have a cousin-in-law who don't speak any. I know a lot of very decent Albanian economic immigrants, most of who I respect for their hard work, while, unfortunately, I also know of many cases of Albanian criminals in Greece. Sadly, those people reflect a bad image to the decent ones as well, for many Greeks. I also know a couple of Vlachs. I really don't know if some people I know as Greeks may fall in the Vlach or Arvanite category (e.g. I had no idea about Papoulias since a few days ago!)  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 15:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a question, why spend so much time on these maps? The whole business, in my opinion, is turning into an autistic pursuit of emphasizing, if not generating, ethnic differences. It would be far more representative to draft maps indicating the main trade roots, including volumes and directions of imports/exports; areas on industry; agricultural produce. In a funny sort of way, such maps remind me of maps highlighting areas of 'Revolutionary Liberation Struggle' groups, indicating areas of armed or bombing campaigns.

• Otherwise, there is no Turkish spoken along the coast.
• I have never come across Arvanitika in most of those areas of the Peloponnese (in fact, there is no Arvanitika spoken any more there). But I can show you family members who would accept an Arvaniniki root, but as for speaking the language... yok, and as for identifying with Albanians...LOL.
• The flat colour suggest that specific non-Greek languages are spoken across the regions indicated. The languages might be better be represented by dots.
• Languages are usually indicated by their normal appellation, not family. Hence, Arvanitika, Slavonic dialects, Turkish, Vlach...
• How do we fit in Tsakonika and Pontian? And Crete can be said to have its own distinct dialect, not to mention Kerkyreika.
• But as I said, there are far more pertinent maps to draft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Politis (talk • contribs)

Oh, believe me. Arvanitika is spoken - certain members of my family are proof of this. Alas, I cannot speak it fluently :-( --Telex 15:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I seem to agree with the rest of his comments. Telex, are you Greek Peloponnesians?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 15:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, Politis, if you've got a problem with that map, take it up with the original source (Niko will tell you). --Telex 16:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Which brings us down to the points I have bolded above. Thoughts?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 16:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I con't help you with the first one (technical skills I lack). As for the second one, read Francis's comment. I could try again, the problem is, that "Vlach" is not a language term, "Aromanian" (or "Macedo-Romanian" in the original source) and Megleno-Romanian are used. I also doubt that many of you would fancy a Macedonian language in yellow. --Telex 16:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I can help with the first. I'll do it in a while. For the second, I think you are wrong: Read intro in Aromanian language and Vlach language. For the third, there is no data that this is "Macedonian" or Bulgarian, so it falls into the Slavic language (Greece). Ok?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 16:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds a bit WP:OR to me, but make a better map if you can. Stripes (like in the original source) is something I cannot make. --Telex 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

As usual Niko, you have one of the best wikikafeneio in town. Endaxi, I have no idea how the map originated. Who initiated it? Thanks for the info Telex, I take your word for it, but where is Arvanitika still spoken in Peloponnisos? But you will no hear someone say, 'milao exeretika Macedo-Romanika', or 'my Megleno-Romanian is a bit rusty'. People speak Arvanitika, Vlahika, etc... And the other language is Slavonic dialects of northern Greece (in deed, the language undergoes variations and has not been standardised in Greece, as it has - for understandable reasons - in the linguistic areas under Skopje or Sofia. And of course, none of us says, 'here we are in English Wikipedia, communicating in Germanic (or Teutonic)...' Politis 16:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't complain to me - complain to the original source (Niko will tell you). --Telex 16:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, now I know how Bletsas felt when he was caught with a similar map ;-) --Telex 16:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ha! I'll send the Epsilon Team over to you too! How about we stick to your map, but 1)change it to dots and 2)write: Arvanitika, Vlach language and Slavic language (Greece)? Is there smthng wrong with that?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 16:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I told you, I can't do dots. Also, the Slavic in Thrace is classified as Bulgarian - do I use that? --Telex 16:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Geia sou file Nikola. Os pros ti prokalei i selida mou? Sigkekeimena? ( Exigise mouse parakalw ti ennois ?)--Asteraki 16:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, as it happens, there was an European Leonardo meeting including Greeks and Bulgarians. The head of the Bulgarian mission said the language spoken in Thraki was Pomak. I told him, that it was a dialect of Bulgarian, but he insisted on Pomak... The speakers also refer to it as Pomak and so do the Greeks. And, if such a map is used, dots :::::. But where will it be shown? Politis 16:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Politis, please check this. We don't do original research - there's no such thing as a "Pomak" language. --Telex 16:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Telex, but I cannot understand how you justify the non-existance of Pomak. Try,[5].

• Also, "the population is largely Pomak; that is, Slav-speaking", re: DV Shankland - British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 2005.
• Also, "...the Pomak dialect could develop as a separate language...", re: Linguistic Minorities in Central and Eastern Europe - Page 89, by Christina Bratt (EDT) Paulston, Donald Peckham - Language Arts & Disciplines - 1998
• The ethnologue map is far from perfect and it has stripes. But I repeat, the coast has no indigenous Turkish speaking Greeks. Politis 17:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Great work for the map Telex, and sorry for the mess I made with those edits, I think I reverted; I've always been a disaster with images :-(--Aldux 17:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• (to Politis) If you think you can make a better map, feel free to. It's not easy when it's done by hand, and your sources speak of a Pomak people, speaking a Pomak "dialect" which could (i.e. has not yet) developed into a seperate language. The only evidence of a Pomak language I can find is this, and as far as I know, all linguists classify Pomak as Bulgarian. Also, please cite your sources if possible proving that the coast has not Turkish speakers (Ethnologue directly contradicts this). If there are no such sources, then we're likely to go with the sources we already have. --Telex 17:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

To Politis: I disagree regarding the Pomaks. I know that there have been attempts by the Greek authorities to promote a Pomak language; but there is hardly a doubt that Pomak is Bulgarian as attested an overwhelming amount of sources (and I do know what I'm speaking about, cause I've been reading so much on the Pomaks lately that I seriously risk auto-identifying as a Pomak myself ;-))--Aldux 17:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The Greek authorities have been messing with minority languages for a long time: Arvanitika vs Albanian - Vlachika vs Romanian - Slavika vs Bulgarian. The Greek authorities have twisted more national identities than Tito, and that's saying something. What is interesting, is that unlike Tito, they've failed. According to the major sources (Britannica, the vast majority of linguists etc), Arvanitika is Albanian, Vlachika is Romanian, Slavika is Macedonian or Bulgarian (this one backfired, as the Greek authorities' messing, pushed some people (the Rainbow Party :p) right into the fold of Skopje propaganda). Tito's creation, the Macedonian language, is recognized by intl sources however. --Telex 17:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

As to Telex: I agree on your choices of ample linguistic groups; it remains accurate, and solves problematic points.--Aldux 17:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, put it up as it is and I'll fix the stripes/dots/pixels/vergina suns/dashes/etc tomorrow. NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 17:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Can't you add a "Macedonian (Greek) dialect" ;-) --Telex 17:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Jesus! I just felt how Francis would when he was forced to create the Wikipedia:Macedonian Wikipedians' notice board!!!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 17:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I created that. --Telex 17:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok I know, just he was very happy about it!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 17:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Telex, I do not mind the flat colours. When I have to point out at the excesses of ethnic zeal, I can point out at this map that shows Athens, the entire Attic basin, Patras and other high density populated areas as Albanian-speaking. I must tell my friend updating her Greek language book that, considering the 5 to 6 million inhabitants of Attica and Patras speak Albanian, she had better forget her book and write an Albanian phrase book for Greece. Then we have 1.5 million in Macedonia speaking...whatever, that just about makes Greek a minority language in Greece. Sorry, Telex, I really appreciate your map-making skills; I do not mean to tease you and I hope you are not offended by my sense of humour, I just want to point out some of the logic of such maps which your good effort produce. But I cannot understand how anyone justifies Bulgarian in Thrace, especially since neither the Bulgarians nor the Greeks, nor the Pomak Greeks, nor the Pomak Bulgarians, nor the Muslim Greeks refer to it by that name (and I have no problem if they do). As for Turkish on the coast, I might be able to fish out something and it will not be any Turkish-speaking lavrakia! :) Politis 17:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

To Politis: if Pomaks don't go around saying how happy they are of being Bulgarians, that doesn't stop them from speaking Bulgarian; one thing is ethnicity, one thing is language. Anyway, I think I'll adress the language issue in the article I'm writing on Pomaks--Aldux 18:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

See User:Telex/Ethnic identity in Greece, to see how the kind of caption to be used. --Telex 18:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me add my opinion for this map as well:). i think it is important enough. Great job, Telex! i have though, 4 comments to make:

• 1. the names of these languages should be Vlach, Arvanitic, etc, and not language families (Megleno-romanian should be included in Vlach, hence Vlach=aromanian+megleno-romanian). as for the slavic dialects, we should call them simply 'slavic, or 'slavonic' or maybe 'south slavic'. and if we are not supposed to use their self-identifying name, we could call the language 'Bulgarian' since this is how it is recorded during history. the term 'macedonian' should be rejected, since it doesn't fit in what i said above (history & self-identification).
• 2. i think Francis mentioned the Roma language... As far as i know, this language is spoken, apart from semi-nomadic populations, by people who reside in some specific places (they do not have a wider region): Menidi municipality, some villages in Thrace (especially in Evros prefecture), in a suburb in north-western Thessaloniki... I am not sure if in such a small (in order to fit in the page) map we should mentioned Roma.
• 3. Sorry Telex, but the geographic distrubution is a mess...! numbers of Vlach speakers exist in a wider region of Pindus mountains, in Florina, Veroia, Central Thessaly (especially Trikala), western of Volos (Velestino), Boeotia, west of Drama (Prosotsani is largely vlach speaking). but if u created the map, according to the 'rule' 1 speaker out of 1,000 residents, half of the Pindus area that u have highlighted shouldn't be, cause the villages of Pindus are uninhabited 10 months a year... Arvanitic is also spoken in some areas of Epirus, in northern Andros, but in a much smaller area of Attica, Corinth and Argolis prefectures. personally, i have never heard of Arvanitic speakers in north and south western Peloponnese. Slavic speakers exist in Serres and Kilkis, but their number in Kozani and Thessaloniki is very low to include the whole prefectures. Also, many of them live in Rodopi and Xanthi (Pomaks). about the turkish speakers... definately not in Kavala, but indeed in Rodopi. half of the prefecture's population (the muslims) use this language (sometimes along with roma or pomak-slavic-, but u have left it aside... Also, about 2,000 people speak it in the Dodecanese (the islands' population is about 200,000... In some cases, Italian is still spoken there, as well as in Zakynthos (but it is more like a graeco-italian pidgin, than Italian (so, maybe u did right not to include it...).
• 4. there should definately be a notice that these people are totally bilingual (maybe apart from the turkish-speaking), speaking both greek and the other language, having learnt them at the same time. what i mean is that they are not like the Basques or the Corsicans, who also speak minority languages in Spain and France respectively. not my POV, just the reality:) --Hectorian 00:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Phew! Hectorian, what a post! I didn't know you had such a detailed knowledge of Greek's languages. You've been really informative. Among the things, I didn't know Italian was still spoken in the Dodecanese, but more fascinating is to hear of a sort of Graeco-Italian at Zakynthos, a sacred place in Italian poetry. Do you know if they're Greek catholic in the Ionian isles, or Orthodox? Ciao!--Aldux 17:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox or Roman Catholic. There is only one Byzantine Rite church in Greece - the Holy Trinity in Athens [6] - with c. 2000 followers. Uniate churches are not highly thought of. --Telex 17:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I thought they may be Uniate because Greeks and Arbereshe minorities in Italy tend to be, and the isles were long governed by Venice.--Aldux 17:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ti svisane oi skopianoi?

Autos edo Makedonec paradeigmatos xari den exei svisei tipota!

Vergina/Macedonia 19:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Macedonia article

I'm not sure if it is correct to have two separate links to the same thing (maybe it can confuse some uninformed readers). Decide by your self if this compromise is going to stay. However, I will stop reverting there for now;) MatriX 19:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with MatriX on this one. I think that wikifying long a series of words is bad taste. --Telex 20:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You are probably both right, but it was the only way I could think of in order to stress the term (according to WP:NPOV#Undue weight) without making it too much (as MatriX suggested and I agree). (a)The silly term comes second, (b)it is not bolded (overstressed), and (c)the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" redirect does exist on its own. I think that exceptional cases (souch as this fucking naming issue of ours) deserve exceptional solutions (such as double wikifying within the same line -which is not too important of a deviation from the rules). I hope you will agree so that we finish this dumb debate and get on with our lives...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 09:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Slavic language (Greece)

Geia sou Telex. I chequed out the Turkish speaking area east of Kavala. In fact, ethnographic maps of the 1870s to 1910s show that coastal area as including Turkish speaking people. So you map is correct in that respect. However, one should bear in mind that coastal area was hardly habitable because until recently it was marshland and required hard work (just look at google earth). Muslim populations could avoid such backbreaking work. And today, to the best of my knowledge, the land was reclaimed by Greeks not Turkish speakers. Politis 12:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about this [7] - edit conflict. Politis: I don't know anythng about Turkish in Thrace, I've never been to Thrace. I probably know less than you. --Telex 12:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Telex: Thanks, you practically WP:OWN that one anyway! (Congrats!) Both: I think what Telex means is "please present sources and I'll do whatever you want", coz obviously you guys don't disagree.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 12:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Kanoun bam!   Politis   ^{(T) @ (C)}

Xa, den epilegeis kamia monoxrwmh kalytera?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 13:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, yes, I did not find anyone other than Greek sources indicating a 'Pomak' language. Απλά για την κουβέντα, perhaps it might be more correct to say 'Bulgarian dialect'. The reason is that as Pomaks they identify with their language and preserve it. Politis 13:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Επι τέλους, βρε να μη πω τίποτα και το μετανιώσω… αλλά έγινε μπλάνκ η σελίδα του γιούζερ μασεντόνια.   Politis   ^(T)

^{Eho tsandisti - diavase afto. Les na 'hun dikio i skopiani ke na mas duleve i kivernisi (ke ta sholia mas) tosa hronia? --Telex 15:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)}

^{Το έχω διαβάσει αυτό το άρθρο εδώ και αρκετά χρόνια. Ο συντάκτης του είναι ο δημοσιογράφος και ιστορικός , πολύ διαβασμένος αλλά και ανθέλληνας του κερατά. Υποστηρίζει τους Βοσνίους από την δεκαετία του 90, αλλά μάλλον διότι αυτό του δίνει πρόσβαση να ξεφτιλίζει τους Σέρβους (και ίσως έχει δίκαιο). Αλλά το ξέρω από Βόσνιους συνάδελφους ότι η ακρότητά του τους έχει γίνει πλέον βάρος και αρκετή θα προτιμούσαν να ασχοληθεί πλέον με κάτι άλλο. Είχε γράψει και κάτι πράγματι πολύ ρατσιστικό εναντίον τον Ελλήνων στο περιοδικό το 1994(?) Αλήθεια, εσένα πώς σου φαίνεται το κείμενό του?   Politis   (T)}

^{Paidia einai Dimitras. Klasiko propagandistiko keimeno ths ethnikistikhs skopianhs epoxhs 93-95. Apo to 95 kai meta otan tou ebalan xeri ayta kophkane. Ta exw ksanapei kai edw. Deite: "This report is based largely on information gathered by a fact-finding mission in the Macedonian region in northern Greece in July 1993, organized and co-ordinated by the Minority Rights Group-Greece. The participants were Panayote Dimitras, representing the Minority Rights Group-Greece; ...". Xrysos kanonas: Kathe tetoio keimeno pou vlepete kante ena search mesa gia Dimitras kai kata 99% tha einai mesa. --   Avg    20:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)}

Almost finished

Taken care of: User:Makedonas, User:Macedonia, User:Makedonec, User:Makedonia and User:Asteraki.

To do: User:Vergina.

The ball is in your court, so to speak :) - FrancisTyers 15:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've given him a final warning, I'll kick a can around for a while in case you are delayed :) - FrancisTyers 16:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. Just logged-in. Going to it now!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 18:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right, most of the egregious stuff is on the (mountains) of subpages he has. I'm going to be deleting them, if you'd like to remove "Fyromian slavisation of the Macedonian history It is the slavisation of the Macedonian history of Greece." and links to the subpages that would be great. The quotes etc. can stay. - FrancisTyers 18:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Sorry, but do as you please. The guy deserves having his thoughts stored somewhere where it is not provocative, as in a subpage. If you want to rename the titles, that's another story, but I think it is unimportant. I will cooperate, just please tell me what to do in order to have the minimum damage. Neither you nor me nor anybody else had ever noticed the subs (I still haven't read the content and I am still bored to do so).  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 19:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, then he can get a blog or something. The material on [some of] the subpages was unsuitable for Wikipedia. I've renamed one of them, which was called something along the lines of "FYROM history vandalism of Macedonia" which contained a list of articles and usernames (most of whom weren't Macedonian) to "List of articles with Macedonia in", which is I think a more accurate title. Thanks for your help in trying to convince him :) - FrancisTyers 19:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Nikola Karev

Can you please explain me why you have reverted my edit where it is indicated that it is a POV article? Even the POV template you think that should be not mentioned?! See first what is going on before reverting it (Zdravko mk 12:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

I have seen:

• User talk:Telex#Nikola Karev
• Talk:Nikola Karev
• Wikipedia:Macedonian_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Dual_nationality

and a lot more relevant talks which I am bored to link for you right now. What exactly have you seen that cancels out that (a) he was in BMARC, read article 3 and (b) "Macedonian" ethnicity didn't exist then?

Your point is as funny as it would be describing Christopher Columbus to be an American...  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 13:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet another example. Noone calls the Ancient Romans "Italians", yet the Italians are their primary descendants. No sane Italians try to restore the Roman Empire at its greatest extent or claim parts of France and Spain. I guess I should ask Aldux just in case...   /FunkyFly.talk_   18:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Your Signature

Hey,

Can I ask you to shorten your signature as it takes up 4-5 lines of code in the edit window! Computerjoe's talk 16:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right, but I am too proud of it (and of my User:NikoSilver/Signature shop). I've discussed it with many admins in the past who actually helped me develop it and shorten it. Please, WP:DBE with me and try to push this further, coz probably you are right and they'll force me to shrink it (although I don't understand why they allow for such long nickname box in the prefs to begin with). The alternative was using a bitmap, but that is strongly discouraged. I hope it doesn't annoy too much, so... Peace?  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 17:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

See my contributions to see how I overcame the problem.   /FunkyFly.talk_   17:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm now using {{SUBST:User:FunkyFly/s1}} as signature.   /FunkyFly.talk_   17:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And apparently I cant do that.   /FunkyFly.talk_   17:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Arvanites

Hi Niko, I'm afraid Albanau is actually right, even though he himself hasn't contributed much to the debate. I'm having a little dispute with Deucalionite and Matia there. I was just trying to work out something with Matia in private, but as the article now stands I personally think the tags are appropriate. If you want to join the fray, you're very welcome - but it seems the article has a looooong history of contention, so tread carefully :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see, hadn't seen him in the talk recently, so I thought it was one of the usual comebacks. Why didn't you add them yourself then? Feel free to do so.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 11:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's just a tactical question of not inflaming the situation unnecessarily: Adding the tags would have escalated the conflict if I had done it myself; but reverting the tags once Albanau had put them in is likely to inflame him. I really would have liked to have avoided both. Anyway, we'll work something out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Fut.Perf, you can't put something on fire if it is already burning like inferno!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 11:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the contention (or aprehention) is linguistically based and driven by a real or perceived objective: to appropriate (in a public space) the identity - and by implication the allegiance, of the Arvanites. In other words, that, 'the Arvanites are Albanians, therefore there is huge Albanian minority in Greece, therefor the Albanian factor should gain central place when discussing Greece' and, by extension, Greece owes vast tracks of land to Albania. But then one could counter-argue that, since the Arvanites are a constituent element of the Greek nation, therefore if the Albanians are identify with the Arvanties, therefore the Albanians are a constituent element of the Greek nation and Albania owes acres of land to Greece (absurd). Conclusion, we need to avoid such 'between-the-lines' inuendos and to prevent our articles from becoming a tapestry of 'nationalistic wishful thinking'.   Politis   ^(T)

^{Care to copy this comment at the Arvanites talk, Kosti? (I still detest this particular signature. Can't you choose a monochrome one from here?)  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 17:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)}

LOL...! By the way, estila kati sto [8] regarding Lazarides. Politis 17:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, folks, nobody over at that article is arguing that today's Arvanites are Albanians. The question is whether their ancestors in the middle ages were Albanians. To which the answer everywhere in the relevant liteature is a simple, unambiguous, resounding Yes. The rest over at the talk page is just trolling. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I just had a lot of fun reading it! (I think I am becoming a troll enthousiast) I have no idea about the issue, but I love the way you disagree with User:Deucalionite! Please continue, as I know for a fact that you do not disagree (Fran's comment about not being necessary to include in intro since analysed extensively in article). I am desperate for that next rise of the talk in my watchlist... NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 22:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Grrrrrr. I've been trying hard to be friendly and polite with Deucalionite despite what he writes. Just look at his talk page, starting from the thread "some of your articles". The thanks is he calls me "dishonorable" ([9]). Mostly everything he's written over the last year needs a huge amount of cleanup, and now he is confusing things at the Arvanites too as if we hadn't already enough problems. If you want to do me a favour, help me keep him away; as long as he's around there's no hope of getting anything useful done there, and I'm not sure how long my patience will hold. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

I tried it on Albanisation and it didn't work :( Could you look to see what I did incorrectly? - FrancisTyers · 16:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes: You trusted me! :-( It doesn't work, see foot-talk. But we can ask for it! :-)  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 16:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Τίποτα δεν μου 'συρες... Εγώ σου 'συρα:p. Μόλις ψήφισα (έπρεπε να διαβάσω τι παίζει πρώτα). Ξέρεις... προσέχουμε που βάζουμε την υπογραφή μας... :) --Hectorian 17:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Κάτι ακόμα: το σου 'σουρα, είναι εφτανησιώτικη διάλεκτος;:p. Γιατί το σωστό είναι σου 'συρα...:) --Hectorian 17:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Χα, καλά το κατάλαβες! Τό λεγε κι αυτό η γιαγιάκα μου η συγχωρεμένη! 'ωρέ μά τον Αι Σπυρίδωνα 'ωρέ!  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 17:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Kalogerakis

Νικο σε εφχαριστω που μου το εσωσες ( κοιμαμαι και η τυχη μου δουλευει ). Εβαλα και εικονες των βιβλιων του για να φαινεται η δουλεια του ( οτι ειναι υπαρκτο προσωπο δηλαδη). Η διευθυνση του εκδοτη του ειναι www.psarasbooks.gr αλλα δεν ξερω πως να την προσθεσω οποτε αν μπορεις κανε τα κουμαντα σου. και παλι ευχαριστω. user:Panosfidis

Finally;) MatriX 17:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

POLL

Just cast my vote at Wikipedia talk:Footnotes#Poll. Thanks for pointing me to it! :)~ Mallaccaos, 8 June 2006

--Bhadani 18:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What!!! No "help your country" poll!! Very much surprised indeed. Την καλησπέρα μου Νίκο.--FocalPoint 19:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In case, you wish

Important: This talk page is becoming very long. Please consider archiving.

--Bhadani 18:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)