Talk:Nikolai Gogol

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Nikolai Gogol was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: October 29, 2006
Nikolai Gogol was the Wikisource
Collaboration of the Week starting 2007-09-10.

Peter Gelman wrote the "interpretation" section of the Gogol text. gelman_commerce@yahoo.com.

There's an essay by Yuri Druzhnikov that makes a convincing argument that the alleged friendship and exchange of literary ideas between Pushkin and Gogol is actually a myth that was largely created by Gogol himself. I haven't done any actual research on this, so I can't really make any edits, but perhaps someone knows more about this? -- Maralenenok

Contents

[edit] Gogol's homosexuality

Oops. I just re-added a paragraph on Gogol's sexuality. However, I think I phrased it carefully enough to be fair to all parties. Regarding the "credible evidence," I haven't seen it, but perhaps someone else has. Does Karlinsky provide it? I incline to the opinion that a clever interpretation of the work is not enough.

Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end. Karlinsky's work includes lit crit, biographical details, exceprts from Gogol's letters, and anecdotes from Gogol's friends. It doesn't make a closed case of Gogol's sexuality, but it does raise questions, and it does so using more than a clever interpretation. -Seth Mahoney 17:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll take your word for it. I've seen this work but haven't read it. Raising questions is of course not the same as giving answers -- and raising questions about sexual orientation is pretty much synonymous with human nature. So I think Fisenko's point is valid and the compromise works. Sorry, I'm new to Wikipedia; I assumed it would sign me automatically. Alas, I have no idea what your symbols up there mean. Cheers, GRRueckert.

It means you type those five symbols at the end of your talk page contributions to sign them. Anyway, I agree that questions are different from answers, and the compromise works. -Seth Mahoney 18:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed comments about Gogol's alleged homosexuality until any credible evidence of this statement is presented. (Fisenko 22:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC))

Try The Sexual Labyrinth of Nikolai Gogol by Simon Karlinsky (reviewed here. - Outerlimits 22:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I added the citation. -Seth Mahoney 17:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian writer? Ukrainian-Russian? Ukr-Born Russian writer?

To say that Gogol wrote in the Russian language and to say that he was a Russian (linked to Russia) are two different things. Ukranian wasn't used as a literary language at the time, and the Ukraine was not an independent nation, so naturally he wrote in Russian.--Prosfilaes 21:18, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article did not say he was Russian. It said he was a Russian writer. These are two different things. He was not Russian but Ukrainian. But he was a Russian writer because he contributed to Russian literature. There were contemporary authors who wrote in Ukrainian at the time. Gogol wasn't. So, the article correctly had it:

Gogol was a Ukrainian-born (i.e. of Ukrainian ethnicity) Russian writer (i.e. writer of Russian literature).

It would be more correct to call Shevchenko (who wrote some poetry and prose also in Russian) a Ukrainian-Russian author (this would be absurd of course, I am just making a point), than to call Gogol a Ukrainian-Russian writer. I am going to revert that to an original version. If you insist on the article saying that he was Ukrainian more explicitly, you can change it to "Russian writer of Ukrainian ethnicity" but this sounds clumsy, I think, and "Ukrainian-born" pretty much says the same thing.

Ukrainian literature has many talented authors. It is a big disservice to this literature to assign Gogol to it because it may create a wrong impression that Ukrainian literature itself has no one to offer and has to co-opt Russian writers to make a claim for significance. It doesn't and it is doing well with its own great talents. But the main issue, of course, is that the claim is incorrect regardless of its political meaning. -Irpen 23:03, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

It said he was a [[Russia|Russian]] writer. That's different from saying that he was a [[Russian language|Russian]] writer. By saying the first, you are saying he's Russian, and it's closer to what the English sentence "he was a Russian writer" means. For example, Mark Twain is called an American writer, and never an English writer that I've seen. --Prosfilaes 06:09, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now I agree, this is a valid point. Myself, like the majority of readers, did not pay attention to what was behind such an obvious link as "Russian". Now I changed that to "[[Russian literature|Russian writer]]". Or perhaps we could change that to "[[List of Russian authors|Russian writer]]". The latter article starts with: "This is the list of authors that wrote in [[Russian language]]. Not all of them are of Russian descent...", which I think is very politically correct way to say it.

With incorrect link, this was somewhat misleading, I agree with you, but still less misleading than the version calling him "Ukrainian-Russian writer" no matter what the hidden links where. Disregarding links, it is more correct to say "Ukrainian born Russian writer" than "Ukrainian-Russian writer" about Gogol. At least this is my feeling and forgive me if I am wrong, I am not a native English speaker. Marko Vovchok, for example, is the one who could correctly be called Ukrainian-Russian writer. Any takers to write an article on this very talented woman highly acclaimed by both Ukrainian and Russian critics? I might do it myself some time. Regards, -Irpen 20:13, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait. Gogol's work was heavily influenced by his time spent in Ukraine. While his works are studied as part many Russian Literature classes, in Ukraine he is considered a Ukrainian author. By the way, Mark Twain is regarded as American, because his works are based around American setting and are about Americans. I don't care that it states in the article that he is a Russian author - that is fair, since it is true. However, in Russia he is considered Russian and his Ukrainian heritage is kind of ignored. On the other hand, Gogol sometimes is studied as part of Ukrainian liturature, but surely in translation to Ukrainian. I just think that to a foreign reader not aware of Russo-Ukrainian politics, it would be important to clarify that both cultures have their claim on Gogol, but on different aspects of his nature. I like the idea of calling his a "Ukrainian writer of Russian literature" - someone came up with that idea before -Anamatv 06:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, my sister (who attends a school in Ukraine) studies Gogol as "foreign literature", alongside Shakespeare and Balzac. Secondly, you need to provide evidence that "his Ukrainian heritage is kind of ignored" in Russia (where the Ukrainian stories are still compulsory for schoolboys). Thirdly, the "Ukrianian influence" refers to his two juvenile (and by far the weakest) books; I don't think you'll spot any Ukrainianisms in his mature work. Fourthly, Gogol always loudly identified himself as a Russian and regarded Russia as his native land. If you bothered to read his mature writing without knowing who is the author, you'll perhaps take him for a Russian nationalist. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
If Mark Twain is regarded as American because his works are based around America, then Lewis Caroll should be considered Wonderlandian and C.S. Lewis Narnian. --Prosfilaes 13:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Gogol was born in Ukraine, as a juvenile composed his first works in Ukrainian, and Ukrainian themes dominated his first works. Indeed, early twentieth century Russian critics have even commented that Gogol's Russian langauge was not quite grammtically correct, and represented aliteral translation from Ukrainian. According to Yosif Mendelshtam, "the spirit of non-Russian speech remained in him," and Vladimir Dal wondered "what would happen if he wrote in [good] Russian." Gogol's biography has parallels with that of Joseph Conrad and Vladimir Nabokov. In contrast to Gogol, despite Conrad's never denying his Polish roots, that novelist never used Polish themes in his literature. Nabokov, on the other hand, left Russia at a later age than Gogol left Ukraine. Therefore, Gogol's Ukrainian-ness seems to be somewhere between Joseph Conrad's Polishness and Vladimir Nabokov's Russian-ness. Note that both of the articles about those people emphasize their native ethnicity (Conrad was "a Polish-born British novelist" and Nabakov a "Russian-American author.") in their first sentence. I see no reason why Gogol's article shouldn't follow that precedent. Indeed, this sort of thing has been written before. In a New York Times article from June 14, 1992, 9"What Country do I live in? Many Russians are asking," the NY Times correspondent Celestine Bohlen stated that "Nikolai Gogol was a Ukrainian writer who wrote in Russian".Faustian 14:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

An interesting fact along those lines: "In 1846, when he was in Karlsbad, Gogol wrote down in the guest book, "Nicolas de Gogol, Ukrainien, etabli a Moscou" ("Nikolay Gogol, Ukrainian, living in Moscow") [1].Faustian 15:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The article needs to be clear that the writer was Ukrainian, as Ukrainian as Joseph Conrad was Polish (perhaps more so, as the other writer never wrote anything with Polish). At present form this is not clear. "Ukrainian-born Russian writer" makes him seem like Mikhail Bulgakov, while "Ukrainian heritage and upbringing" seems to dilute the fact that the guy was completely Ukrainian. Why not just keep it as "Russian-lannguage writer of Ukrainian origin (or better, ethnicity) which seems most accurate. Incidentally I've recently bought and highly recommend a fscinating book, with good reviews by serious academicians, about the ambivalence of Gogol's relationship to Russia that lasted nearly until his death [2]. Some of Gogol's writings about Russian vs. Ukrainian culture (in the context of his comments defending Mazepa) in his personal letters could have been written by a typical Banderist chauvinist. Understandably this aspect about the writer was heavily deemphasized by Russian and Soviet scholars (and thus Western ones who depended on them as sources) but is not seeing the light of day. Among the reviews:

A major contribution to the history of Russian literary culture. Bojanowska illuminates Gogol's works in a new and interesting way, and makes a convincing case for his identification with Ukraine and his frequent inclination to compare Russia unfavorably to it. Her research is extensive, her argument fresh, stimulating, and controversial. The implications for our understanding of Gogol are enormous.

--Jeffrey P. Brooks, Johns Hopkins University

Edyta Bojanowska confronts head-on a fundamental anomaly: Nikolai Gogol was a Ukrainian, but he became a great Russian writer. She shows how Gogol, throughout his literary career, was deeply torn between his identity as a Ukrainian and his commitment to be a Russian writer. It was his mission to sear Russian hearts with his message of truth and righteousness and show them the way to purify their souls. But his Ukrainian heart was never really in it; he didn't like Russia or believe in it. This is an illuminating, impressive, and original work by a very talented scholar.

--Hugh McLean, University of California, Berkeley

Faustian 04:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC) Faustian 04:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gogol's Ethnicity

You mention Gogol is Polish rather than Ukrainian in ethnicity. What are your evidence for this? To have some Polish ancestors is not exactly the same as being Polish. Maybe Gogol's grandfather or great-grandfather is Polish, but that might only make him 1/4 or 1/8 Polish, rather than fully Polish. Mandel 22:38, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
I am not saying he is Polish. There is no evidence he had Polish ancestors. He is most certainly Ukrainian. I was saying that his grand-father called himself Polish in spite of being Ukrainian (or rather Ruthenian). This was due to Polonization of Ukrainian/Ruthenian higher class. Gogol's family as a whole chose to avoid the polonization as it is clear from the article. They went to study in Orthodox Institution (KMA) and moved to Eastern Ukraine not ruled by Poland at that time.
I used the Brockhaus and Efron as source of the info. The article is here. If you think that the current text suggest that Gogol was Polish, it certainly needs improvement. I will think about it and feel free to edit this. -Irpen 23:31, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the article certainly is misleading. As it now stands, it certainly suggests that Gogol was Polish rather than Ukrainian. Mandel 00:22, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

I changed it. Feel free to modify, if this still seems misleading. -Irpen 00:41, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

I still don't get the reason why Gogol's grandfather would sign himself as "of the Polish nation". It certainly suggests that Gogol has some Polish blood in him, unless what he meant was something else exactly. What did Gogol's grandfather really mean - of Polish nationality or of Polish ethnicity?
We can only guess what he really meant. However, we have some clues if we take into account the context. In Ukraine, ruled for centuries from Poland and later from Muscovy that became Russia, the Ukrainian upper class (up to a certain moment it is more correct to call them Ruthenians) was under pressure of Polonization or Russification. Generally, the upper class (senior to minor nobility) tended to get polonized (or russified) with time (I mean mostly culturally, not necesseraly by blood), and the lower class didn't. This cultural change of identifaction was mainly in the fileds of language, loyalty to the ruler and (in case of polonization) religion. Some members of upper class managed to resist this process to a varying degree, and less and less with each generation. The house of Ostrogski is a prime example.
With each generation it was becoming more and more common for aristocracy to associate themselves with a ruling nation, while peasantry remained "Ukrainian". Gogol's great-grandfather Jan Gogol seems to have avoided getting polonized since he, as the article says, studied in KMA, a Ukrainian and Orthodox University in Kiev, and ended up settling in the left-Bank Ukraine more leaning to Orthodox Muscovy than to Catholic Poland. It seems that for his son, (Nikolai's grandfather), it was more difficult to call himself "Ukrainian" or "Ruthenian" and he wrote "of Polish nation" meaning simply belonging to nobility, which in Ukraine mostly meant being associated with Poland. The article is clear on that. It calls N.G. "Ukrainian-born", calls his family "of Ukrainian nobility". That they "associated themselves with Polish nation" does not contradict that. If you don't think it's clear, change it to your own version
As for the lead sentence, I offer this: "Ukrainian-born Russian-language writer". Russian writer is ambiguous: it may mean writing in Russian or of Russian descent. Just like nobody calls Kafka a German writer (he's a German-language writer), or that a Chinese writer may mean a Chinese writing in other languages, this lead ought to be rephrased to be more accurate.Mandel 17:51, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
To make it less ambiguous, the phrase "Russian writer" is linked not as [[Russian]] [[writer]] but as [[Russian literature|Russian writer]]. I don't think it is ambiguous and, as I pointed out earlier the article List of Russian authors starts with: "This is the list of authors that wrote in Russian language. Not all of them are of Russian descent...". You may prefer linking to this article rather than to Russian literature. I think "Russian-language writer" sounds clumsy and I don't like how Kafka is introduced. But that's a matter of taste. If you want to change it, go ahead but keep in mind that most people view Gogol as simply a "Russian writer". This may be a "systemic bias". Well, I am bad in fighting it. Regards, -Irpen 00:15, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

I can see both of your points. I think the current language is okay, but it may be better to write a longer sentence or two. Maybe something like this:

Nikolai Vasilevich Gogol (...) was a Russian writer. Although many of his works were influenced by his Ukrainian heritage and upbringing, he wrote in Russian and his works belong to the tradition of Russian literature.

or just

Nikolai Vasilevich Gogol (...) was a Russian writer of Ukrainian heritage.

Why can't we just say he was a Ukrainian writer of Russian Literature? I guess because his works belong to the body of Russian literature, or simply because he wrote in Russian? —Michael Z. 2005-06-15 03:40 Z

What Michael suggests is fine. It's clearer than what I suggest, I think. I don't know what Irpen thinks though. But it's clear that Irpen and I don't have divergences on Gogol ethnicity, it's just how it is presented that is problematic. Mandel 05:21, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
I have already added Michael's suggestion to the article in the
03:31 (UTC), Jun 15, 2005 edit by Irpen. -Irpen 06:26, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two short stories

  • The list of works contains something called "The Mysterious Portrait". Is this the same as the short story "The Portrait"? NatusRoma 05:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Lead

It's just a little short, isn't it? Usually for a longish article like this you'd want one more paragraph, or so I'd have thought. Moreschi 18:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

I'm failing this article for GA for one big problem: POV. There are just way too many POV assertions that are unreferenced by inline cits, which are required these days for GA. A sample of these problem sentences might be:

  • "This makes his prose ornate and agitated. It is all alive with the vibration of actual speech. This makes it hopelessly untranslatable — more untranslatable than any other Russian prose of the 19th century." Doubtless true, but it needs a cite.
  • "But these cartoons have a convincingness, a truthfulness, and inevitability — attained as a rule by slight but definitive strokes of unexpected reality — that seems to beggar the visible world itself.". Ditto
  • "he other main characteristic of Gogol's genius is the extraordinary intensity and vividness of impressionist vision, sometimes skirting expressionism". Ditto. And so on.

Basically what I'm saying is that there are other ways of pointing out how wonderful Gogol is thought to have been without violating WP:NPOV. Moreschi 19:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC) I agree. The line "he had no inner impulse towards Christ" is particularly unnecessary. How can any 21st century writer have any idea about Gogol's "inner impulses"? That is simply reckless writing. This is a fine example of trying to inject a personal opinion into a (very) general biography. To say that he was merely afraid of devils and witches is at best reductive and at worst cynical beyond belief. Please avoid such POV assertions in future editing.

I agree with Moreschi on his analysis of the point of view. The documentation states that much of the text was taken from "A History of Russian Literature," and I believe many ideas were added from this work that were simply opinion and not properly referenced. Oshibka 06:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Russian?

Anyone else think that his works are somewhat anti-Russian in content? I would consider something like that from a Ukranian writer.

-G

This is rather unfortunate and ignorant stereotype of Ukrainians being anti-Russian, occasionally supported by sad examples, including here at Wikipedia. Gogol was not anti-Russian in any way but the issue is too complex to answer at the talk page. I would have to refer you to the works of his biographers and reviewers. In short, some Ukrainians chastice Gogol for "abandoning" his Ukrainian roots while he certainly did none of this sort. At the same time, some scholars note that his style and strength of his sarcastic condemnation of the Russian state, especially pronounced in his satire, owe to his Ukrainian heritage as only a non-Russian could be so acrimonious and frank in his remarks about the empire. This seems to me like an interesting assessment. I could probably find refs if you want. --Irpen 18:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Gogol certainly made anti-Russian statements at times, such as in the company of Polish exiles whom he befriended in Paris. At other times he demonstrated a very strong loyalty towards Russia and towards the tsar. He was a very complex man with mixed feelings. Faustian 15:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable Facts

Comparing the article in English and in Russian I found that Gogol has different last words associated with his death. The Russian version tells of his his grandmother telling him how angels carry the souls of the dead on stair up to heaven and Gogol's last words were (roughly translated) "The stairs! Let the stairs come faster!" while the English article claims his last words as "And I shall laugh with a bitter laugh." which were then engraved on his tombstone. The best information I could find on this comes from the Introduction by John Cournos to "Dead Souls" translated by D.J. Hogarth (Publisher: The World Wide School, Publication Date: November 1997, Published: Seattle, Washington, USA):

"His last words, uttered in a loud frenzy, were: "A ladder! Quick, a ladder!" This call for a ladder--"a spiritual ladder," in the words of Merejkovsky--had been made on an earlier occasion by a certain Russian saint, who used almost the same language. "I shall laugh my bitter laugh"[3] was the inscription placed on Gogol's grave.

JOHN COURNOS

[3] This is generally referred to in the Russian criticisms of Gogol as a quotation from Jeremiah. It appears upon investigation, however, that it actually occurs only in the Slavonic version from the Greek, and not in the Russian translation made direct from the Hebrew. "

Secondly, the English article gives the date of death as March 4 while in the Orthodox calendar his death was on the 21st of February. I'm unsure how the Orthodox Calendar is dealt with on Wikipedia, but just making note.

Oshibka 07:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism

This article plagiarizes the book A History of Russian Literature by D.S. Mirsky all throughout the article. The phrasing, structure, and even whole sentences are the same.


Abriefsmile 03:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unencylcopedic Tone

The tone here seems more suited to a literary review instead of an encyclopedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.52.215.108 (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

I also noticed that particularly in the section entitled "Creative Decline and Death" the tone feels more like that of a novel, including more expressive and figurate language than one usually finds in an encyclopedia entry. The comments on Gogol's peculiar evolution of mental state are at best expressed too liberally in style and are at worst completely unverifiable conjecture. It would be wise to review this section, and in fact the whole article, confirming the consistent use of encyclopedic tone and language. 88/rosette/88 17:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This article seems rather messy and unencyclopedic, including references to The Overcoat as '[Gogol's] greatest short story'. It even includes a line:

"Note: this section represent one failed critic's point of view, and is scheduled for deletion by me, Mike."

Well delete it then, or bring it up on the Discussion page. Don't write a note on the article itself and make it worse.86.144.56.33 13:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arabesques

I removed a footnote that said Edgar Allan Poe had a collection of similar stories also entitled "Arabesques." This isn't true; the collection is "Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque," both of which were established literary terms for the genres during this time. The note seemed to imply that Poe was trying to rip off Gogol. Feel free to reinsert with clarifications. --Midnightdreary 17:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Removed

Gogol in pop culture -- it contained nothing but spam for commercial products. The was no genuine relevance to Gogol or his works contained in the list.

[edit] Golog is Russian and Ukrainian writer!

Russians have to understand that Gogol also was a Ukrainian writer, not only Russian. He was born in Ukraine, he wrote about Ukraine, he loved Ukraine. Lets leave Gogol as Russian and Ukrainian writer. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.228.126 (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian nationalist perspective link

I agree that the link [3] presents a biased Ukrainian view of Gogol and therefore it should be labelled as such. Nevertheless I oppose the removal of this link. The author of the article is a well-known scholar (even if a biased activist). From the Radio Liberty website [4]: "Yevhen Sverstyuk is a literary critic and publicist, and one of the founders of the Ukrainian national movement in the 1960s. He graduated from Lviv University in 1952, where he studied logic and psychology. A former political prisoner for his samizdat writings, Sverstyuk was sentenced to 12 years' imprisonment in 1970. Sverstyuk is editor in chief of the monthly orthodox newspaper "Nasha Vira," founded in 1989, and president of the Ukrainian PEN Club. His works have been published at Harvard University, as well as in New York, Paris, and Kyiv." Obviously the guy is biased, but he is significant and the opinions he presents are significant - they reflect new scholarship on Gogol, such as this work by a Polish scholar: [5] which draws similar conclusions to those of Sverstyuk and which has been reviewed favorably by Western scholars. For example, a reviewer of Bojanowska's work from Johns Hopkins University stated that it was "A major contribution to the history of Russian literary culture. Bojanowska illuminates Gogol's works in a new and interesting way, and makes a convincing case for his identification with Ukraine and his frequent inclination to compare Russia unfavorably to it. Her research is extensive, her argument fresh, stimulating, and controversial. The implications for our understanding of Gogol are enormous." I think that giving readers access to this POV, with a warning that it has its own perspective, is helpful. Faustian (talk) 02:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)