Talk:Nikola Tesla/Archive 6

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
← Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 →

Contents

Tesla's car

I've read some stuff about Tesla's car, which he apparantly demonstrated to his nephew Peter Savo in 1931. The car had an electric motor, but it seemed to get its power from some unknown but universally present source (dark energy, cosmic radiation, gravity). I'm no expert in the field so perhaps I'm talking complete nonsense here, but if it did indeed exist it would've been a fantastic yet forgotten invention. A "free energy" book you can order online claims to contain the instructions on how to build one yourself, but I doubt that as if that were the case we'd all be driving one now and free energy claims always tend to be overrated. Googling for Tesla's car brings up some information, but with little details and not always from the most reliable of websites. Does anyone know more about this and would it perhaps add to the article, or be worth an article of its own? BabyNuke 11:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Seifer ("Wizard, the Life and Times of Nikola Tesla". ISBN 1-559723-29-7 (HC), ISBN 0-806519-60-6 (SC)) talks about this, IIRC. Not sure if Valone's "Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature" has anything. I'll look around. 204.56.7.1 17:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Nationality

I have tried my utter best to portray this issue in NPOV. I have clearly stated that the topic of his natinality is disputed between Croatians and Serbs (which it is), and have taken absolutely no sides. Yes, I'm Croatian, and as much as I would like to post that Nikola Tesla was Croatian (and all Croatian children are thought this in school, even myself all those years ago), I conform to the NPOV rule just like everyone else should.

So please, don't revert this without just cause, which I doubt you could find.

xompanthy 15:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you put it as a references note? or fotenote? It just seems a bit jarring there in the intro. 204.56.7.1 17:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
template:ref - template:fn

Well I added it right after the claim that he was a Serbian-American inventor. I actually changed it to "American inventor,..., of Serbian and Croatian origin" (which seems a lot more NPOV), but it seems that User:Krytan felt that needed to be reverted. In the hope that we can make this viewpoint a bit more NPOV and avoid a revert war, I left it at that.

I think it should stay in that position since it is a very controversial topic, still argued over even today amogst Croatains and Serbs. And since Wikipedia is NOT a place where one states his own beliefs but FACTS, it should remain there.

And if some pro-Serbian or pro-Croatian user decides that the article should reflect what they BELIEVE is correct, they can go somewhere else.

-- xompanthy 21:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

What to do, what to do? This has got to be one of the silliest edit wars I have seen here to date. I suppose it would be very naive of me to suggest that we call Tesla an American of Balkan heritage and leave it at that?---CH 11:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it would. And what you find silly others might not. -- xompanthy 14:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, since someone removed that section yet again, I find myself not caring. Keep it POV if it means that much to some people. -- xompanthy 20:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I beleive Tesla's own words are the best guideline - he stated "I'm proud of my Serbian heritage and of my Croatian homeland..." . I could argue on both sides for many reason, but the truth is that he was of Serbian nationality, and of Cratian domicile (altough it was as many state a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire, Lika was integral part of Croatia, who shared the rights to Hungarian crown...and the ages of Tesla's youth are the ages in which the Croatian and pan-slavic (unity of all Slavic nations) ideas were the strongest... they resulted with State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs , and later on with Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes...-- Vladimirko 22:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Why I removed reference! - Let's take aside that the article, from (othervise resputable source) was full of incorrections, disputable and biased... Article in question is not relevant reference for establishing anyone's nationality, not even Tesla's, which is mentioned in article. Relevant source and/or reference would be any (preferably legal) record, or paper issued (or recorded) for or by Tesla, stating his nationality. It might be birth record, family record (as kept in parishes at that time), census data, school record, (all of the above mentioned is most probably available in States's Archive of Croatia in Zagreb), then, it might be any imigration data in U.S. (check up the Ellis Island records), or it might be taken anywhere in Tesla's correspondency (available in Museums in Smiljan or Belgrade). Newspaper article, no matter how god or bad it is, cannot be reference source for establishing such fact! Just not to leave article in mention out, here it is:

-- Vladimirko 08:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

People! Some of you confounding the issue with bad terminology. What you call "nationality" is in fact called ethnicity in English. Tesla's ethnicity is, as far as I know, not disputed by anyone: Tesla was a Serb. Still, Tesla is put into e.g. Category:Serbian physicists, despite clear Wikipedia guidelines (Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#By_nationality_and_occupation) that people be categorized by nationality, not ethnicity, except in explicity named categories such as e.g. Category:Serbian people by ethnic or national origin (which, interestingly enough, doesn't exist as of this writing). His nationality was not Serbian: his parents never lived in Serbia, nor did he. GregorB 19:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


"Eccentric Serbian-American engineer who made many contributions to the invention of electromagnetic devices. Tesla was Serb who was born in the Croatian village of Smiljan in the Lika region, which at the time was part of Austrian monarchy. His father was an orthodox church priest." Wolfsram Research --Lowg 01:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm suprised Croatia is claiming Tesla as his own, seeing as how as soon as Krajina was occupied by the Croatian army, Tesla's statue was destroyed. An interesting way to show respect. In any case, I find the dispute hilarious. His father was a Serb Orthodox priest, and he was christened in the Serbian Orthodox rite... All of his indirect descendants (for Tesla had no children) were Serbian, not Croatian. This is easy enough to find. I can't see a single argument that he is Croatian, other than the fact that the Austro-Hungarian region he was born in was later to become Croatia. I find this irrelevant, and it says nothing about his nationality.

What nation included his birthplace of Smiljan when he was born, and when he came to the US? What nation is his hometown part of now? These questions of fact have some bearing on what words should be used here. I found in Tesla's US "hometown paper," the New York Times, the following: The first mention of his nationality I found was 7/19/1891 , p4, where he was called "Austro-Hungarian." March 4, 1895, it said he came here from "Servia," which was the spelling the NY Times used for Serbia in that era. March 31, 1895, p13 “He is hardly the representative of any European nationality; perhaps he might be better spoken of as a flower of a mountaineering clan. Just as the Highlanders in Scotland have beaten back the tide of invasion, so his people in the highlands of the Adriatic, have fought, cursed, and slaughtered Turks ever since the turban invaded Europe. His people are a rural people, and willing to be peaceful, but ever ready to turn their sheperds’ crooks into spears amd their scythes into bloody blades. They have been planted from time immemorial in the Adriatic mountains, but it was, perhaps, a happy chance that took thither in the turbulent First Napolean days an officer of the victorious French legions, who intermarried and thus gave to the aboriginal stock the blood of which Tesla is the latest and best product.” July 16, 1895 p 10 said he was “a Montenegran.” Sept 29, 1895 p 22, he was described as a "Servian." July 10, 1934, p19 said he was born "in Smiljan, in Austrian Croatia (now part of Yugoslavia. He is the son of a Greek father, a clergyman, and a Serbian mother, Georgiana Mandic, an inventor, and the daughter of an inventor." {single parenthesis in original}. His obituary, Jan. 8, 1943, p 19 said " Nikola Tesla was born at Smiljan, Lika, a border country of Austria-Hungary, on July 10, 1856. His father was a Greek clergyman and orator, and his mother, Georgina Mandic, was an inventor." Jan, 9, 1943, p13 says " Yugoslavia, where Tesla was born of Serbian parents, will be officially represented by..." May 8, 1949, p27, says "..Nikola Tesla, American inventor who was born in Croatia of Serbian parentage.." June 26, 1956 p43 says ""A native of Croatia, Mr Tesla came to the United States in 1884." Jan 24, 1960, px19, calls him "..Croatian born.. " On Feb 9, 1967, p78, calls Tesla "Yugoslavian born" and note that he spoke Croatian with the hotel Maitre d. April 14, 1974, p 12 calls him "Serbian born." Sep 7, 1980, pE20 calls him him “the Serbian inventor.” July 6, 1982, pc3, refers to “ the grandiose claims made in his behalf, particularly by some Tesla admirers who share his Croatian origins.” Sep 18, 1983, pH33,says he was “born in a town in Croatia in what was then Austria-Hungary and is now Yugoslavia." Feb 23, 1997, pLI25 says he was "Born in 1856 to a well-placed Serbian family..” April 19, 1999, pE5, calls him "a Croatian born Serb.” So could we say "Tesla was born of Serbian parents in Smiljan, Lika, Croatia, then a part of the military frontier of the Austro-Hungarian empire, and now part of Croatia.” This mirrors the words used in the article on Smiljan. I don’t know how we explain the “Greek clergyman father” being Serbian unless he was perhaps a Serbian who was also an Orthodox priest.Edison 22:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, how many words... :-) So, here it is, when settling in US, people coming from this part of the world were more confused than anybody reading text above! I found immigration data on ellisisland.org for my greatgrandfather, his sister, her housband and several other family members that came on the same ship, same date from two neighbouring houses. Almost each and every one of them (according to immigration data) came from other country, territory and city, half of them even had their names missspled! According to data they were from Slovenia?, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Ottoman empire?! and some other territories for which I haven't the slightest idea how they came in this records! Reason(s): Ignorant American officials! and people that came from "region that was not more then century ago part of Illiryc provincies occupied by Napoleon, part of Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia that acording to treaties from 11th century was in personal union with Hungary, and with Hungary together under Habsburgs (Austrian rouling family), so part of the Austrian empire as well, as they lived close to border of Bosnia, territories was under direct governing from Vienna, which was anachronism at that time, but as they had some tax privileges, they were obliged to serve army wherever "crown" needed them!... To CTC, Tesla lived not far from them. Few decades later, Austrian empire collapsed, and most of people declared themselves according to newly grown ideas, as Illyrs, or south Slavs, (Yougoslavian academy of sciencies was founded in Croatia before Yougoslavia named itself as such)or by ethnicity or regionally (and btw, according to international laws Croatia claims it's statehood from 10-th century)... So when Yougoslavia was founded, most of immigrants accepted it as their homeland, accepting their differences too! Not many years later, Serbian king and governmant on head of South Slav country, founded on bases of equality, started redirecting tax money to Serbia, and with time the hell broke loose! But that's another story! So, when (according to his nephew) a politician greeted Tesla on his 80-th birthday as "son of Serbian origin born in Croatia", TESLA replied "As I'm proud of my Serbian roots and Croatian homeland, as you Yougoslav politicians act I'll have no homeland to return to, your haterid is so great, that if it would be possible to turn it into electricity, it would light up the world" (It was just some time after one of the gretest politician of the time(from peasant's party) was assasinated in parliament in Belgrade)... I'm totally in favour of total removal of ANY ethnical, national or geographical(Serbian, Croatian, American) reference from introduction line! Tesla was GREAT MAN and he probably turns in his grave on such disputes! I worked for to many hours today so please fogive me on any typo's I made, you might correct them if they boughter you, and...You've got the point-- Vladimirko 00:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Calling him a "Croatian/Serbian inventor" is just ridiculous. He was born a Serb in what was then Austria. He was educated in Austria and spent more than a half of his life in US. He has nothing to do with Croatia other than the area he was born in is part of Croatia *today*. Calling him an American has a lot more merit than calling him Croatian and I don't really see anyone calling him American.

Following the logic above (“He is not Croatian as he was born in Austro-Hungarian region“, or “He was educated in Austria”), we could also say that Nikola Tesla is Turkish, because Serbia was Turkish region were Serbs were serving 400 years under Ottoman Empire and probably mixed with Turkish, which is both nonsense.

We could safely said that Nikola Tesla was not Serbian inventor. He was Croatian inventor with Serbian origins. Nikola Tesla himself was always proud of being a Croatian of Serbian origins (a similar way as today we say American of African origin). He stated that himself many times and it is recorded in his work and documents.

The fact is that Croatia had advanced education system that leads to many discoveries (propeller, torpedo, first refillable pen etc …). Tesla is product of that education system as well as other famous Croatian scientists. If Tesla would be born in Serbia, he would probably be a smart guy in his village and this is all what he would become. He would do nothing in terms of innovations. The fact that the first Serbian dictionary was made 300 years after Croatian is telling us that under Ottoman Empire Serbian educations system was really poor.

Zizula 01:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC) Zizula 20:06, September 16 2006 (UTC)

I see that Wikipedia states Tesla was a "world-renowned Serb-AMERICAN inventor". The fact is that Tesla, himself, said that he is proud of him being a Serb, and proud of Croatia being his home-country. I just wonder where in history did he become an American? No, the fact that all his works have ben done in America does not mean he EVER was, or will EVER be an American inventor. He is as much as an American as Einstein.

Tesla had American citizenship after all... --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

FTL claims

Can someone note that some "Tesla Coils" transmissions were "many" times the speed of light and that this is related to cherenkov radiation (and Bremsstrahlung which Tesla used in his X-ray experiments). Thank you. 204.56.7.1 17:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

(PS., most modern text on this subject cites cherenkov radiation as what Tesla was referring to when he talks about FTL transmissions)

Are you saying that when Tesla mentioned FTL transmission he was referring to Cherenkov radiation? Can you give an example of a modern textbook (on physics?) which says this? ---CH 11:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

When Tesla mentioned FTL transmission, was he was referring to Cherenkov radiation? Yes. Is there modern textbook on physics that state this? No (not that I know of), modern biographies on Tesla DO state this though.

Is there an example of a modern biography? Valone, Thomas, "Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature". ISBN 1-931882-04-5 (pg. 122-123). Valone's books states, "Tesla had found that at electrical resonance with the earth, electromagnetic waves had become supraluminal [...]. In the supraluminal sense, they moved faster than the speed of light". Then Valone footnotes (bottom pg. 123), "[...]speed of EM phase velocity is v=1/sq rt (LC) which can be faster than light speed in a vacuum." Valone refers the reader to an article, Harold Willis Milnes, "Faster than light?", Radio-Electronics, Vol. 54,, Janurary 1983, for more information.

Are there other references indirectly to this? Yes. Seifer, ["Wizard, the Life and Times of Nikola Tesla". ISBN 1-559723-29-7 (HC), ISBN 0-806519-60-6 (SC)] has a whole chapter called "faster than the speed of light (1927 - 40)". Seifer states "Verification for Tesla that there existed particles that travelled faster than the speed of light were purportedly discovered in the late 1890s whn he invented a device to capture radiant energy. The machine [...] comprised, in essence an insulative plate [...] made out of the 'best quality of mica as a dielectric'" (pg., 423). IF you look at Cherenkov radiation, it is electromagnetic radiation emitted when a charged particle passes through an insulator at a speed greater than the speed of light in the medium. Matter can be accelerated beyond this speed. Cherenkov radiation results when a charged particle exceeds the speed of light in a dielectric (electrically insulating) medium through which it passes. The Bremsstrahlung phenomenon was discovered by Nikola Tesla during high frequency and X-ray research he conducted, several years earlier than the FTL claims.

USPatent 18:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC) (PS., this is in addition to the much older (and more outdated) claims of superluminal communication and, tachyons IIRC, of Cheney ("Tesla: Man Out of Time", ISBN 0-13-906859-7 ))

Do note that the c limit is a the speed of light in a vacuum only. In the dirac sea of reality, there is not a perfect vacuum. And, as was Tesla's belief, there is a medium throughout space (at the minimum, space itself).

You can also read:

  • A-Ahamid Aidinejad and James F. Corum, "The Transient Propagation of ELF Pulses in the Earth-Ionosphere Cavity"
  • James F. Corum and Kenneth L. Corum, "Disclosures Concerning the Operation of an ELF Oscillator"
  • James F. Corum and Kenneth L. Corum, "A Physical Interpretation of the Colorado Springs Data"
  • James F. Corum and Kenneth L. Corum, "Critical Speculations Concerning Tesla's Invention and Applications of Single Electrode X-Ray Directed Discharges for Power Processing, Terrestrial Resonances and Particle Beam Weapons"

USPatent 19:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobel claims

I NPOVed the Nobel Prize claims a month or two ago, but now they are back in their highly fan-like form. I have tried to fix them, but there seems to be some resistance. Could others look into making this have a NPOV? --Philosophus T 00:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Read:

These should contain the references that you need. This page also give a tast of the news reports about it. Edison and Tesla Win Nobel Prize in Physics. Literary Digest, December 18, 1915.

There isn't anything "fan-like" about this. It's statements of fact. 204.56.7.1 19:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read: Nobel Prize controversies. The text there was incorporated here. 204.56.7.1 19:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Another site: Controversy about This Year's Nobel Prize in Medicine teslasociety.com 204.56.7.1 20:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Another verifiable site for the initial incorrect report is the New York Times, Nov 6, 1915, p1: "Edison and Tesla to get Nobel Prizes" which based their statement on the Copenhagen correspondent of the Daily Telegraph. Also see Nov 7, 1915, p12, "Tesla's discovery Nobel prize winner". The article said "Nikola Tesla, who, with Thomas Edison is to share the Nobel Prize in physics, according to a dispatch from London, said last night he had not yet been officially notified of the honor. His only information on the matter was the dispatch in the New York Times." Tesla thought the honor was for the transmission of energy without wires. He said he thought Edison was worthy of a dozen Nobel Prizes. He had often expressed his friendship with and admiration for Edison, and gave no hint he would refuse the honor if Edison was also getting it. The reported antipathy toward Edison only showed up when he was elderly. Finally Dec 28, 1915, p83 the NY Times reported that the initial report was incorrect. It had also given an incorrect report for the person to receive the chemistry award, further disproving the claim that Tesal refused the prize because Edison was also getting one. Also disproof of any great antipathy between them causing them to refuse the 1915 Nobel Prize is that in 1916 Tesla accepted the Edison Medal'For meritorious achievement in his early original work in polyphase and high-frequency electrical currents.' This often repeated claim that Tesla refused a Nobel prize needs something like a rejection letter from the Nobel files, or a memoir by someone involved with the Nobel award, or papers from Tesla's files. In other words, something more than someone writing a book or creating a webpage and stating it is so without a good source. Edison 23:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is not much room for controversy. Seifer in "Wizard" pp378-380 has obtained detailed info from the Nobel people. Tesla never received a Nobel nomination in 1915, so he did not refuse it. Neither did Edison. Out of 38 nominations for the prize in physics, Edison received one and Tesla zero. The winners were the Braggs, father and son. There was an erroneous press report as listed above. Tesla also received one bid out of 38 in 1937, again not enough for him to win the prize. No nomination, no controversy, other than perhaps that he might have deserved one.I am removing refrence to the 1915 Nobel Prize and Tesla.Edison 22:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


Dynamic theory of gravity

There needs serious help in outlining the Dynamic theory of gravity. Both CH and William M. Connolley seem to be pushing a anti-tesla POV (as seen from above and in that article).

CH (User:Hillman) edits of POV - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dynamic_theory_of_gravity&diff=40547941&oldid=39938292

CH actions:

WMC's actions, among other things:

  • Removed "which some feel anticipates Ernest Rutherford's nuclear model of the atom. Tesla further claimed that there exist carriers transmitting "tensions or electrostatic strains". Some claim to see these statements as an anticipation of later work on elementary particles."
  • Thinks he is Wolfgang Pauli by putting in "Today it could only be described as not even wrong"

References to improve that article:

134.193.168.227 23:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Born in Croatia

I don't see why it simply doesnt state he was born in Croatia, instead of Austrian Empire...it doesn't make sense. If we follow this pattern then half of famous Americans were born in British Empire, Czechs and Slovaks in Czechoslovakia and so on...

Tesla was not born in Croatia, because it didn't exist then. The part of the Austrian Empire that is now called Croatia was then called Vojna Krajina, so it would be more accurate to write that as well instead of just Austrian Empire. And you can't be born in a country that doesn't exist at the time of your birth, can you? I'm sure his birth certificate didn't show that he was born in Croatia, but rather Austria. --serbiana - talk 06:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
You haven't done your reading in full. Vojna Krajina, was the part of Croatia that had privileges and additional fundings from court as an defence zone from Ottoman Empire! ...and Croatia was constitutional part of Austro-Hungarian Empire!Vladimirko 17:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
There was no "Croatia" when Tesla was born. Aslo, what was called "Croatia" was much smaller then today's country known as "Croatia", it was only a small territory around city of Zagreb.Homo Cosmosicus 12:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Homo Cosmosicus (talk • contribs)

But the common standard is to use the present country for geographical reasons. Why do you think for George Washington it doesnt state he was born in Britain, as the United States didn't exist then. If we follow your logic, then all Serbs born in medieval time were born in Turkish empire, because Serbia didn't exist then.

Well they were born in the Ottoman Empire genius, because Serbia didn't exist. Of course Washington wasn't born in the US, it would be idiotic to agree with you and say that he had been. He was born in a British colony... --estavisti 22:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It is clearly stated that Tesla's birthplace was in present date Croatia, and I don't see why are Croatians so much upset about the fact that in time of Tesla's birth, it was part of Austrian Empire? Archimedes wasn't born in Italy, nor Heraclites in Turkey, although the places of their birth are today situated there. Speaking of which, Michael I. Pupin was born in Banat, which was then part of Serbian Voivodship, but nobody is that vain to forge the fact that it was in fact in Austrian Empire. Ridiculous. Marechiel 16:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is Tesla claimed to be a Serbian-American if he was of Croatian descent (by today's standards)? Many books from Croatia claim Tesla is Croatia. Case in point: if you are born to a Pole and a Russian, but you're born in Spain, does that make you spanish, or polish/russian? The later, correct?

Tesla stated that he was proud of being a Serb, and of Croatia as his country. I belive that one's roots (his/her "blood") are the most important. However, of high importance is the country where a person grows up and which he/she him/herself claims to be his/her motherland. Tesla can be called a Serb, as well as a Croat, for he was of Serbian blood and he called Croatia his motherland. True, his works were done in America, but Tesla can not be called an American inventor.

Tesla was not of Croatian descend, nor he was half-Croatian half-Serbian. Both his parents were pure Serbs (In one letter Tesla writes about the deep medieval Serbian roots of his mother's family, the Mandićs). The fact that someone was born in Croatia doesn't make them Croats, you know. And Tesla wasn't even born in Croatia, he was born in what many years later became the Republic of Croatia. :) --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Tesla just can't be a Croat. At the time he was born, his birth place was not part of Croatia (and even if it was, then he would perhaps be a Croatian, and not a Croat again), and none of his ancestors were Croats. On the other hand, Tesla did have an American citizenship. Tesla was born in Austria-Hungary, he was a Serb by ethnicity, and an American by citizenship. Again, not a Croat at all. ;) --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In sentence "According to legend, Tesla was born precisely at midnight during an electrical storm, to a Serb family in the village of Smiljan near Gospić, in the Lika region of the Austrian Empire, in Croatian part od Military frontier, located in present-day Croatia", I removed part which says "in Croatian part of Military frontier" because of folowing reasons: first, there was no such a thing as Croatian part of Militatry frontier, second, Lika region is more narower, and therby more precise specification, third, sentence itself had more than enough geographical specifications. Uross 23:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Uros: you should have read Military_Frontier before editing the article, there were the Croatian and the Banat parts (Banat_Krajina). Phrase "in Croatian part of Military frontier" makes sense, please bring it back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zigzig (talk • contribs) 10:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC).