Talk:Night watchman state

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I think that someone should make this article NPOV, it says for example: "As such, some are strong proponents of the right to bear arms, arguing that it gives citizens the opportunity to shoot evil law-makers or tax-collectors that try to override the constitution, thus preserving the minimal state."

-- mecha (no wiki account)

Contents

[edit] "The Left" vs. "socialists"

There is currently a dispute regarding the proper name that should be given to those who oppose a minimal state on the grounds that a welfare state is necessary. The dispute is between calling them "the Left" or "socialism and other ideologies". I strongly believe they should be called the Left. First of all, not all supporters of a welfare state are socialists. Second, not all socialists support a welfare state (radical socialists support a planned economy). "The Left" is a much better term to use. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 09:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

While "The left" is better than "socialism and other idealogies", but the left includes a variety of views, most (perhaps all) supporting a welfare state. Liberalism has similar problems. Socialism sounds pejorative when used in this way, and there are many people who do not consider themselves socialist who support some form of a socialist state. Nereocystis 16:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that "the Left" (as well as "the Right") has been historically been used to mean different views, which is especially complicated as we are discussing an historical term. Originally, in the Ball Room, during the French Revolution, the liberals (and that means free market liberals, not American leftists) sat on the Left and conservatives, supporting the ancient regime, on the Right. Nowadays in Russia, Left means the free-market reformers, and Right the conservatives, who would like to return to Soviet era. This means, that the term is really vague. Maybe it would be better sepeak about "the defenders of social security", "the egalitarians" or something alike.--213.243.154.252 10:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
The terms Right and Left are indeed vague by themselves, but they have very precise meanings in specific contexts. For example, in the context of present-day Western democracies, Right and Left are very well defined. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:45, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of removing the "Disputed" tag from the article. It gave the misleading impression that there was a strictly factual dispute in progress, while really it's just a fairly tame semantic argument. (For what it's worth, anyone reading the article who's been following politics in any Western nation -- or clicks on "Left" -- will quickly figure out what is meant) --zenohockey 18:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I think "the Left" is the preferred term here since the viewpoint is being contrasted with that of the "Right." Having said that, there is the possibility of referring to the aforementioned "Left" as "socially progressive" or "social liberals" in order to further the contrast with the "socially conservative" Right. Perhaps this would provide context for those (including myself) worried about the vague nature of "Left" and "Right." Parallel or Together? 13:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The right to keep and bear arms

The right to keep and bear arms is not part of the basic definition of Night watchman state, so I've moved it to a separate paragraph. I did not add or delete anything. -- Writtenonsand 23:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, a state that does not allow its citizens to bear arms is certainly not minimal. I do not know of any minimal statists that do not support that right. - WarHawk - ( 64.180.217.100 ) <- ISP info added by Writtenonsand 20:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
True, but a state that limits ANY right is not minimal. The right to bear arms doesn't hold any special place.(Dmjboose 16:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] The most widespread objection

Ok, who went out and counted noses so that some objections can be called more widespread than others? Goldfritha 01:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Out it goes, then. Goldfritha 03:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Social contract

As Social contract indicates, governments do not have social contracts; only societies do. And the nightwatch man state would have one: the agreement of the people living under it to live under it. (As the anarchist objection shows, this can not be taken for granted).

Anyone want to clarify that portion? Goldfritha 03:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In fiction

I noticed that the article on kleptocracy had something about the discworld series, and from the books in it that I have read, that is correct. I think that it can also considered a night watchman state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.89.167 (talk) 22:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC).

eh... I'm really not sure why there's an aside about the right to bear arms in here...

[edit] arguments for the night watchman state

this section is either wrong or poorly written, mostly in regard to objectivism. Objectivists don't believe that the actions of a government beyond minarchism can lead to good consequences on the whole, but the article makes it sound like they fall in the same category as the natural law people. I've changed the article to clarify this. Also, the austrian school doesn't sound as though it's a minarchist school of thought, because it only deals with economics, rather than other rights.(Dmjboose 16:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC))

[edit] 19th-century England

I was just reading an interview with Charles Stross (http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue343/interview.html) in which he claimed that England was a night-watchman state from 1830 to 1860. Anyone able to go into detail about that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.68.112.71 (talk) 01:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prisons

The prisons can be private also, although in cooperation with the government. The same for the weapons factories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.71.222 (talk) 17:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)