Talk:Night Lords

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Warhammer 40,000, an attempt to expand, update, and improve all articles relating to Warhammer 40,000 on Wikipedia. You may edit this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives for the project.

Contents

[edit] In universe nature

This page is not only amazingly 'in-universe' in tone, but full of personal opinion and biased accounts (an obvious fan of Lord of the Night has taken it as gospel and transferred it to this page). I'd appreciate help in correcting this, though I'll be making attempts myself over the next few weeks. Primarch 08:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

While the article may need work im not sure the mass removal of information may be the way to go about it, i dont know enough about the night lords to be of much use but im sure there was much information that could be used if just rewritten? Lowris 11:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

But I did rewrite(in accordance to WP:WAF guidelines). Essentially, as I've stated elsewhere, it is not Wikipedia's place to paraphrase fiction or retell a story in great detail. Take a look at what I deleted- it was all in-universe, and minute detail on how Night Huanter's feelings and purple prose better suited to fan fiction than an encyclopedia. All of the key and important points on Night Haunter's origin are still there, I've just cut away all the fan fat. Primarch 12:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition, if you read carefully you'll see that I corrected facts as well as adding new ones. Just because it looks less chunky doesn't mean it's less informative. It's actually the opposite, if you examine closer. Primarch 12:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
In some areas it has been approved but the story of Konrad Curze and his vigilantism has been removed/reduced greatly and this was one area that i believed to be very important to the development of him and the night lords Lowris 12:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Please point out which details you feel are lacking, I'm happy to discuss. As I've stated elsewhere, it isn't up to us to paint a dark and haunting picture of Night Haunter's childhood and his motivations. We have novels and articles and codex for that. Wikipedia could perhaps state or note that Night Haunter is considered one of the most engimatic primarchs, but it is not our duty to build that sense of enigma around him.
To put it another way, Wikipedia is here to inform visitors about a story, not retell it. My honest belief is that all the 40k space marine legion/chapter pages are misguided in this way. Primarch 14:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmm...imho, it's still a bit in-universe in theme. Maybe we should reorganize the article. Start with the history of the chapter in game, as in, the evolution of the background information, rules, models, etc. Then we can have the background history of the chapter in-universe. Shrumster 19:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

This has been changed too much to the point where its not a neutural informative article it should probably just be reverted to the version that was up a month ago without all the story telling

Many other chapters, legions and so forth are written in an equally fiction based style, and so long as it is introduced in that way I don't see a problem. More could be taken from the Index Astartes and Chaos Codex books, rather than the novels which are considered more Apooccryphal. Does anyone have a list of sources that might be used to chronical the developement of the chapter from models and rules, perhaps of who at Games Workshop was responsible for them. It has been said that they were once Khornate, then undivided, and so on. In Index Astartes and in the last codex it is strongly implied that they are not in all followers of Chaos, but that many are some of the only real atheists of the 41st millenium, and having mutation and possession only due to taint because of their use of unprotected warp travel and using daemons as tools and weapons. This is mentioned but I think needs more emphasis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.63.222.32 (talk) 10:19, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Battlecry

Does anyone have a source for the Night Lords' battlecry? The infobox and the main article are currently inconsistent. Cheers --Pak21 11:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

By Index Astartes, it's We have come for you!. Editing accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.63.0.36 (talk • contribs) .
Argh! Accidentally wiped out a fair bit at the bottom - anyone know how to revert a page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.63.0.36 (talk • contribs) .
WP:REVERT. Cheers --Pak21 13:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Though I do not play Warhammer, Konrad Curze bears more than a passing resemblance to Joseph Conrad's and Appocolypse Now's Kurtz. Nostronomo is the namesake town of Conrad's novel NOSTRONOMO. Kurtz in THE HEART OF DARKNESS took trophies of polished skulls, and Col. Kurtz from the cinema said "You can kill me but you cannot judge me" before Martin Sheen's character killed him.

That's OR, and we can't use it, though it is possible. MSJapan 18:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd agree there seems to be strong parallels. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Night Haunter was, in part, inspired by Kurtz. The article used to mention this, but as posted above, it's hard to back it up.

[edit] Deletion?

Whoever keeps trying to get this page deleted, please stop. The knowledge provided here took time to compose, and in all fairness, the public needs more knowledge, even on these esoteric subjects.

NemFX 14:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Can the AfD tag be removed, as it has been concluded that it should not be deleted?

Ave dominus nox! 13:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Kudos to whoever (if anyone) who removed the AfD notice. Now what about the "notability" notice? Has it been established that this faction is rather notable in its own right? They were the sample army in the 3rd ed. codex and the metal Terminator box has the models painted in Night Lords colours.

Ave dominus nox! 12:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really, no. The AfD was speedy closed as it was started by a banned user, and there still isn't much sign of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" as suggested by WP:N. --Pak21 12:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate that point, and shall leave the notability debate to better onformed persons than myself, not really wishing to kick yet another one off with ignorant comments.

[edit] Deletion re: Notability

With regard to notability, one view is that the questions ultimately fall down a heirarchy for establishing what may or may not be relevant here:

1) Is Games Workshop (GW) notable?

2) Is Warhammer 40,000 (WH40k) notable?

3) Are the Night Lords notable within the context of WH40k?

Given that the first two questions have their own wikipedia articles which are not flagged for notability questions (and, indeed, games in the same genre such as Warmachine, which are less well-represented in the gaming populace are also not flagged as non-notable), the first two questions will be assumed as answered in the affirmative for the purposes of the contents of this post.

Therefore, the following are in support of question 3, given 1 and 2:

a) The Night Lords are repeatedly referenced in current Games Workshop publications, such as the current WH40k fourth edition rulebook, the current WH40k Chaos Space Marines Codex (C:CSM) as well as the forthcoming release of the C:CSM update, several White Dwarf articles, and the Lord of the Night novel.

b) The Night Lords are currently a viable and represented option for players of WH40k, with both rules and appropriate models. Specific paint schemes (which have evolved over time) and appearances are noted in Games Workshop literature (see point a), though players have a great degree of latitude in the degree to which these are followed.

c) The Night Lords are well-integrated into the background material for WH40k, representing a piece of the fictional background for the universe. Given the primacy of the Horus Heresy in the background material, and the fact that the Night Lords were one of the Space Marine Legions participating in this event, if the WH40k background material is notable in any degree, it would be difficult to exclude the Night Lords as an element thereof.

Having said that, this is not in support of this being a well-written article. Proper references to current material are likely needed, including sections beyond the in-fiction discussion which would be necessary to provide context and relevance beyond being a fictional element (such as gaming appearances at tournaments, significant commentary on actual gameplay and tactical aspects, and the like). Rather demonstrating the Night Lords as a functional component of a popular strategy game should occur, as this is the real-world context for the encyclopedic reference. Likewise, there should be some referenced link to Heart of Darkness and the (possibly deliberate) parallels drawn to the novel.

However, being an incomplete and poorly composed article is not reason for deletion for either lack of content or lack of notability as per Wikipedia policies. It is, however, a reason for revision.

JacksonMarten 21:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Malal?

Could it not be argued that the Night Lords indirectly serve Malal? I mean, the character of Night Haunter especially embodies the downtrodden nature of Malal's followers, and originally that was how the entire army was treated. Malal is the Chaos god of the downtrodden. Anyone else see that connection? - NemFX 02:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless there are any verifiable sources for that, the information should not be included in this article. If you wish to discuss personal theories about the 40K universe, this should be done at one of the many, many 40K forums out there. Cheers --Pak21 07:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)